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The Gospel: God Centered, Free, Powerful
- Thread starter Dale-c
- Start date
PK said:
If by the word provision you mean what God has provided in a general indefinite sense, no. The Lord has made particular provision for particular people, namely the elect.His work was specifically for them alone.
In Romans 5:17 after saying that death reigned through all people because of Adam, "how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." (TNIV)
And I would caution you and anyone else not to attribute more than is warranted to the phrase "those who receive". It is not due to their reception that they are saved. They who receive grace and righteousness are passive.The emphasis is on the Giver, not on any power of the recipient -- that he or she had the discernment to make the choise to receive.
PK said:
Not to argumentative, but that's silly. Of course Ephesians one is speaking of the Church as a corporate body. But the Church is composed of individual members. Everything in this chapter applies to individuals on whom the Lord has lavished His grace.
Nodak:Rather, they teach that God gives everyone that measure of grace necessary to respond positively to the gospel.
Rip:That supposition is not found in the Word of God.Spurgeon once said that the Arminian edition has this verse:"He giveth to every man a measure of grace to profit withal."But it is not a quotation of Scripture. The Lord does not give faith to everyone either. ( They are connected you know).
Nodak:The issue is does God give that grace to all, or just to a selected few. John 3:16 among others makes it clear that the offer is real to all.
Rip:Again there is no such thing as universal grace. It's nonsensical. He gives His grace to some -- a "selected few" as you said.If He gave it to all -- all would be saved.
John 3:16 is restrictive. "For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." (NJB) Only those who believe receive eternal life. And we know from the whole of the Bible that belief or faith is given, it's not self-generated.
I have spoken of the term offer elsewhere several times. Let's just say we are to proclaim the Law/Gospel to all indiscriminately( though the Holy Spirit is discriminate). Proclamation includes warning, threatening, pleading, and inviting sinners to repent and belief on Jesus and His cross-work. His is the only sacrifice which can pardon sinners. It's perfect and final.
Nodak:To me, both full Arminians and Calvinists are into works based salvation. Neither theology seems to produce humility (in my extremely limited experience.)
Rip:Just dealing with Calvinism for the moment, how in the world can you make that silly assertion?!On what basis are we works-oriented?
Nodak:For me, to be an Arminian (unless modified such as free grace/once saved always saved) or a Calvinist one would have delete verses such as John 3:16 from the Bible.[/quote]
RIP:No, you're quite wrong again. But perhaps I can attribute that view of yours to your "extremely limited experience"?
Rip:That supposition is not found in the Word of God.Spurgeon once said that the Arminian edition has this verse:"He giveth to every man a measure of grace to profit withal."But it is not a quotation of Scripture. The Lord does not give faith to everyone either. ( They are connected you know).
Nodak:The issue is does God give that grace to all, or just to a selected few. John 3:16 among others makes it clear that the offer is real to all.
Rip:Again there is no such thing as universal grace. It's nonsensical. He gives His grace to some -- a "selected few" as you said.If He gave it to all -- all would be saved.
John 3:16 is restrictive. "For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." (NJB) Only those who believe receive eternal life. And we know from the whole of the Bible that belief or faith is given, it's not self-generated.
I have spoken of the term offer elsewhere several times. Let's just say we are to proclaim the Law/Gospel to all indiscriminately( though the Holy Spirit is discriminate). Proclamation includes warning, threatening, pleading, and inviting sinners to repent and belief on Jesus and His cross-work. His is the only sacrifice which can pardon sinners. It's perfect and final.
Nodak:To me, both full Arminians and Calvinists are into works based salvation. Neither theology seems to produce humility (in my extremely limited experience.)
Rip:Just dealing with Calvinism for the moment, how in the world can you make that silly assertion?!On what basis are we works-oriented?
Nodak:For me, to be an Arminian (unless modified such as free grace/once saved always saved) or a Calvinist one would have delete verses such as John 3:16 from the Bible.[/quote]
RIP:No, you're quite wrong again. But perhaps I can attribute that view of yours to your "extremely limited experience"?
skypair said:
So you think there a couple kinds of grace do you? You speak of His salvation revealed to ALL , not a few. Ya' got a heap of explaining to do. Grace comes to all in your view, but all are not saved.If by "it comes" you can't possibly mean that it is given because all would be saved, they would be recipients of grace.So in Skypairism grace somehow comes to every individual, past, present and future.However, though it "comes" it is merely making a temporary visit on the fly.According to your view this species of "grace" is not given.Yet though this sort of grace that you speak of is not given to all it reveals itself somehow to all.This grace goes to places where the folks have never heard the Gospel or even the name of Christ.Gracious, your kinda' grace is not biblical grace.
Dr. L.T. Ketchum
New Member
You are correct PK. It is the Church corporately that is elect. Not individuals.PK said:
Jarthur001
Active Member
This too is not the right view.PK said:
Salvation is not by groups but is a personal relationship with Christ that make up a group. Churches are not saved, PEOPLE are saved that then make up the church. This view you have just posted, is yet another Arimian view that goes with the misuse of the word "forknowing"
In fact Lets look at that passage to prove this.
Romans 8:29 "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."
This passage speaks rather of the fact that God knew persons ("those whom he foreknew"), not that he knew some fact about them, such as the fact that they would believe, not does it speak about when they join the church, nor is it talking about when they become part of the Body of Christ. It is talking about people whom God knew in the past. It MUST be a personal, relational knowledge that is spoken of here for God knows all of mankind. This personal relationship is love.
This is the sense in which Paul can talk about God's "knowing" someone, for example, in 1 Corinthians 8:3: "But if one loves God, one is known by him."
Also please notice Paul says in Gal 4…. "but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God ..." .
When people know God in Scripture, or when God knows them, it is personal knowledge that involves a saving relationship. Therefore in Romans 8:29, "those whom he foreknew" is best understood to be, "those whom he long ago loved and brings into saving relationship to himself."
Back in Ephesians Paul talks about certain PEOPLE whom God chose, including himself.
"He chose us in him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).
To talk about God choosing a group with no people in it is not biblical election at all. But to talk about God choosing a group of people means that he chose specific individuals who constituted that group.
In Romans 9-11, Paul does address God’s election of groups, in this case, national groups, Israel over all the others. However, Paul is not addressing the election of groups separate from the election of individuals.
Please remember, groups are always composed of individuals.
Also in Romans 9, Paul addresses Jacob and Esau as individuals.
The unity of Romans 9-11 indicates that we cannot eliminate individual election, because in chapter 10 believing in Jesus is an individual decision.
Elected individuals compose an elected group, "The People of God". It is those people God has elected to salvation.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Dr. L.T. Ketchum said:
Yet another reason our good Doctor is called an Arimian.
Jarthur001
Active Member
skypair said:
Skypair, ....
Man oh man...I tell you what. I have no idea why you want to make God as a small helpless being. I am glad that God RULES ALL, and not as you see it.
"Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is Thine; Thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and Thou art exalted as Head above all" 1 Chron. 29:11
"The Governor among the nations" Psa. 22:28
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Dan 4:35
Isaiah 40...
9Get you up to a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good news;
lift up your voice with strength, O Jerusalem, herald of good news; lift it up, fear not; say to the cities of Judah, "Behold your God!"
10 Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.
11 He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom, and gently lead those that are with young.
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?
13 Who has measured the Spirit of the LORD, or what man shows him his counsel?
14Whom did he consult, and who made him understand?
Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?
15Behold, the nations are like a drop from a bucket, and are accounted as the dust on the scales;
behold, he takes up the coastlands like fine dust.
16Lebanon would not suffice for fuel, nor are its beasts enough for a burnt offering.
17 All the nations are as nothing before him, they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.
18 To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?
19An idol! A craftsman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and casts for it silver chains.
20 He who is too impoverished for an offering chooses wood that will not rot; he seeks out a skillful craftsman to set up an idol that will not move.
21 Do you not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
23 who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.
24Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows on them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble.
25 To whom then will you compare me, that I should be like him? says the Holy One.
26Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these?
He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.
That is my God.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Rippon said:
Not sure where he is from, but I know where his doctrine ranks.
Jarthur001 said:
"There are only two chapters in your Bible in which this word 'predestinate' or 'predestined' is found, Rom 8:29-30 and Eph 1:5,11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell, but to Christlikeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in Scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Predestination means that one day all the redeemed shall become just like Jesus Christ!" - Dr. H.A. Ironside
Remember 'Pre'-'destination' = predetermined destination or place. This place is Christlikeness.
Jarthur001
Active Member
PK said:
Another good Doctor that is wrong.
Act 4:28
Rom 8:29 and 30
1Cor 2:7
Eph 1:5 and 11
Still you have not address the "group" claim.
having said this I could give you a qoute if I wanted to take the time to look for it by Ironside showing better his views of election then this one post you gave.
In fact, I may be wrong, but I think this quote you gave came from Romans and he is addressing Double Predestination.
If I am wrong about this, and I could be wrong, for it has been a while since reading Ironside, then it still laters little. The Dr is wrong, in this area. Should we not go with the Bible?
OK, rip, what I need from you is a "working knowledge" of what "control" means.Rippon said:
Yeah, very non-specific, right? ANYONE on earth, right?
I "would land" or I "wouldn't land?" :laugh: I don't think I would land in any ditches if I interpretted scripture correctly.
Ditches reminds my of an Adrian Rogers sermon on staying on the straight and narrow of scripture, rip. "License" on the left -- "legalism" on the right. You seem to take the "license" track in that you allow those in who have not met the conditions of belief and repentance.
No, sir -- nor are we in that kingdom. But it is YOU that insists His will reigns without resistance, right?
skypair
skypair said:
Job 23:13 : But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases.
Psalm 115:3 : Our Lord is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
Psalm 135:6 : The Lord does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.
Daniel 4:35 : All the peoples of the eath are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him:"What have you done?"
Jarthur001
Active Member
skypair said:
You really need to listen to at least one other preacher.
This has been addressed before, which you overlooked.
Now lets look at even more verses...
Please notice these are all from the NT.
Acts 17:26,
“and He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation,”
James 4:13-15,
“Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” 14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. 15Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that.”
2 Thess. 2:11,
"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false."
Rom. 9:18,
"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."
Rom. 11:8,
"just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.'"
Mark 4:11-12,
"And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12in order that while seeing, they may see and NOT perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and nNOT understand lest they return and be forgiven."
Acts 13:48,
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
Phil. 1:29,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."
2 Thess. 2:13,
"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
1 Pet. 1:3,
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
Rev. 17:17,
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."
2 Peter 1:2,
21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Those are good verses
Those are good verses showing God sovereignty, and I praise God, but I also praise the way out that God has given to the world that we our His messengers to the world of this hope. So many have gone their own way though.
2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Those are good verses showing God sovereignty, and I praise God, but I also praise the way out that God has given to the world that we our His messengers to the world of this hope. So many have gone their own way though.
2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.