The Gospel of Jesus Christ (Death, Burial & Resurrection)

[Desert Jim]

Hi Everyone, I haven't participated on here in about a hundred years. The conversations seemed quite "UN" Godly, so I just wanted to stay out of the fray.

This came up recently which is probably going to cause me to leave a church. Actually we have left, but haven't made it permanent until after we talk with the pastor.

Our SS teacher started off by saying that the people in "deep dark Africa" didn't have to hear the GOSPEL in order to be saved. He felt that the scripture in Romans 1 about "without excuse" was enough to allow them to be saved; that knowing "the Godhead" would suffice for Jesus Christ. He couldn't explain how they could be saved, but he "knows they can". This came from an 80+ year old IFB preacher. I almost fell off my chair and questioned it, saying that if there were another way of Salvation outside of the Gospel, then God is a liar, and it is impossible for God to lie. And there were other senior Christians who agreed with him stating that it was just a matter of faith.

After that, I have been reading about exclusivists, inclusivists, etc, etc, and found a lot of beliefs that I didn't think even existed.

Anyway, just wanted to run it by you folks and see how many people believe that man can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His atonement. Yes, I know, the world is in terrible shape.

Regards, Jim

 

[atpollard]

If an infant dies before it hears the Gospel is it damned?

The situation is the same as the adult who never heard the Gospel. Both were born with Adam's curse and a human sin-nature, so God's JUSTICE says that both deserve punishment.

In point of fact, I have no idea what GOD's answer to the question is. That is a matter above my pay grade.
I agree with R.C. Sproul that God owes salvation to no one and would be completely JUST in condemning all; thus it is an act of God's mercy and grace that saves anyone and everyone that is saved.

So God is obligated to save no one (baby or African native) and God is free to save whomever He pleases (including babies and African natives) ... for some unexplained reason, God has not asked for my input on the matter.
Ultimately, it is Jesus who gets to decide whose sins he bore on the cross. Abraham never heard the Gospel and Jesus bore his sins.

[Just to be clear, no one is saved without Jesus ... it is just a matter of how much ignorance God is willing to overlook.]

 

[Desert Jim]

You brought up a couple good points, AT. First, what about that "age of accountability" we hear so much about? Is it at all Biblical? I honestly don't know. We do know, tho, according to Romans 1, that (I'm assuming adults)" have enough knowledge to know of God............and even the "Godhead", and they are without excuse, so we know they are "accountable" to God. I believe anyone who shows any heart interest in Salvation will HEAR the gospel..............as someone said "God will move mountains to see that he does". That is what I believe, but I can't prove it. We do KNOW what God wants, and I don't believe He is gonna "force" anything on anyone. I totally believe we were given a FREE choice and I think the Bible makes that clear. I appreciate your reply. I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION TO TOSS OUT: What about the scripture where Jesus says "My Spirit will not always strive with man"?? I take that to mean about what it says; that man CAN REJECT GOD for the last time; that that is when the Spirit will no longer work with him; that he will NEVER again even consider God. Same is true with backsliders who fail to come back to the fold. I don't believe anyone who is saved can ever be lost, though. Many thanks, God bless, Jim in Idaho

 

[HAMel]

The way it was described to me is that a man who never had opportunity to hear about Jesus arises one morning, steps outside, gazes at his surroundings..., and comes to the realization that his world had to be created by something or someone. At this point the Lord accepts him into the Family of God.

 

[Paco]

Well, … I guess we can just forget about praying for and sending missionaries to the nations of the earth. All that would be necessary is to pray that every man would wake up, walk outside, and look at the beautiful sunrise.... and presto, … he is a part of the family of God. NOT!!!

Dr RC Sproul believes that God, in His sovereignty chooses who will be saved and regenerates them without them believing the gospel, so his perspective is convoluted from the get-go...

No, the Bible clearly states that men (humanity) are saved by the foolishness of preaching. It is necessary for the gospel to be preached and for lost people to hear and believe the message of the Cross and to receive the Savior in order to be saved.

1 Cor 1:21
21 For since, in God's wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached.

Rom 10:13-17
3 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 11:14
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved​

No! Men are saved by hearing words, not by seeing the beauty of nature. What kind of words? … the words of the gospel.

Viewing nature can help people to understand that their is design to the universe, and therefore a Creator, but they must hear the gospel in order to be born again.

.

 

[HAMel]

Why the sarcasm, Paco? Does it thrill you to put others down? Their thoughts and ideas? Does it inflate your ego? Are you trying to indicate that God is limited in whom He chooses to save and under what conditions? ...folks like you are one of the reasons I seldom participate on this forum.

 

[Desert Jim]

The way it was described to me is that a man who never had opportunity to hear about Jesus arises one morning, steps outside, gazes at his surroundings..., and comes to the realization that his world had to be created by something or someone. At this point the Lord accepts him into the Family of God.

Methinks you had it explained to you incorrectly HAMEL :. Read Romans 1, down around verse 20 and further, it tells us that man has to know there is a God. That is a general revelation that the creation gives us. Men has to know there is a creator. But, no, that has nothing to do with becoming saved. That was the point that brought up my question in SS. Man has to know there is a God, but he must also know the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Only the Gospel has the power to save a person. "It is the power of God unto Salvation".

 

[Desert Jim]

Paco wrote:

Dr RC Sproul believes that God, in His sovereignty chooses who will be saved and regenerates them without them believing the gospel, so his perspective is convoluted from the get-go...

No, the Bible clearly states that men (humanity) are saved by the foolishness of preaching. It is necessary for the gospel to be preached and for lost people to hear and believe the message of the Cross and to receive the Savior in order to be saved.
============================

If Sproul believes that, he was a Calvinist.
I agree with what you said above, even if you might have been a tad sarcastic in your opening .

 

[Paco]

Why the sarcasm, Paco? Does it thrill you to put others down? Their thoughts and ideas? Does it inflate your ego? Are you trying to indicate that God is limited in whom He chooses to save and under what conditions? ...folks like you are one of the reasons I seldom participate on this forum.

Why the hostility Hamel??? No, I did not put anyone down, simply expressed that a certain viewpoint on this issue was in error and gave Biblical evidence explaining why. You can either agree or disagree. The Bible is RIGHT, … something else is wrong.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

Some thoughts as I was reading these posts. These scriptures came to mind. We have had similar questions before. I try to just take Gods word and pray for the correct discernment.

Galatians 3:8-9 KJVS
[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying , In thee shall all nations be blessed. [9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

John 8:56-58 KJVS
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it , and was glad. [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 15:21-22 KJVS
[21] But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. [22] If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Romans 7:9-10 KJVS
[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

 

[Jesus Saves!]

A few more

Romans 10:16-18 KJVS
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[Paco]

Paco wrote:

Dr RC Sproul believes that God, in His sovereignty chooses who will be saved and regenerates them without them believing the gospel, so his perspective is convoluted from the get-go...

No, the Bible clearly states that men (humanity) are saved by the foolishness of preaching. It is necessary for the gospel to be preached and for lost people to hear and believe the message of the Cross and to receive the Savior in order to be saved.
============================

If Sproul believes that, he was a Calvinist.
I agree with what you said above, even if you might have been a tad sarcastic in your opening .

Dr RC Sproul was a died in the wool Calvinist and made no bones about it. He was a pillar in the Calvinist community.

 

[HAMel]

I find it interesting how some folks try to limit our Lord. To box Him in. Consider the following:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25)

...the world itself could not contain the books...??? Oh my..., how can this be? We have the Bible and it says that men are saved through the foolishness of preaching..., so that nails the lid down! According to that our Lord cannot save anyone He so desires unless they hear the message from a Preacher?

No thank you. My God is bigger than yours and I just can't find it in my to box Him in. To limit Him.

I mean, if there isn't enough room in the world to "contain all the books that should be written", perhaps..., just perhaps, a long shot if you will..., but just perhaps our Lord did not include all of His majesty within the Bible. Could He have left the door open for greater things for lesser people?

 

[Jesus Saves!]

I was just sharing scripture that came to mind as I read these posts. Not trying to cause a fuss or argument. I'm not trying to limit the Lord. Just take him at his Word. We have his Word to go by. He has all power in Heaven and earth. Nothing is impossible with God. But, I don't believe he's works contrary to scripture. Jesus worked many miracles and is still that we don't know about, but none would be contrary to his word.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJVS
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[HAMel]

Yes, Jesus Saves..., I do realize the 'intent' of your post and understand. There are others though that desire to limit our Lord.

When I consider the Lord created the universe and perhaps a million more; that He has named all the stars; that He has created all things on earth; that He holds the times and seasons in His hand; that He caused a great flood that encompassed the world; that He parted the Red Sea; that He caused a mule to speak; that He set Moses adrift in a basket to eventually become a great leader; that He spoke of so many things the world itself cannot contain the books that SHOULD be written..., that some are so narrow minded to believe that He CANNOT reach down and save those whom He chooses! ...even in the Congo or an aborigine anywhere in the world.

That some tribal member in the deepest part of the Congo cannot find the Lord absent a Suit and Tie along with attendance at the First (@#$%%^%%$#) Church on main street, USA?

Let us give God the credit and absolutely NOT try to limit Him and His glory. He does laugh at our wisdom. Job 40 presents a picture and asks, in so many word, can we change anything about God? Heaven forbid.

...no disrespect intended my Brother. May God bless.

 

[atpollard]

I believe anyone who shows any heart interest in Salvation will HEAR the gospel

The question is why should any fallen natural man show "any heart interest in Salvation"?

• [1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
• [Romans 3:10-11 NIV] 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
• [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NIV] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
• [Mark 4:15 NIV] 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
• [John 3:19-20 NIV] 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

That is why "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them ..." [John 6:44 NIV]

 

[atpollard]

What about the scripture where Jesus says "My Spirit will not always strive with man"?? I take that to mean about what it says; that man CAN REJECT GOD for the last time; that that is when the Spirit will no longer work with him; that he will NEVER again even consider God.

Context is everything:

• [Gen 6:3 NKJV] 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
• [Gen 6:3 NASB] 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
• [Gen 6:3 ASV] 3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.
• [Gen 6:3 WEB] 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

• [Gen 6:3 ESV] 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years."
• [Gen 6:3 RSV] 3 Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."

• [Gen 6:3 NLT] 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years."

• [Gen 6:3 NIV] 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

• [Gen 6:3 CSB] 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit will not remain with mankind forever, because they are corrupt. Their days will be 120 years."

• [Gen 6:3 DBY] 3 And Jehovah said, My Spirit shall not always plead with Man; for he indeed is flesh; but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

It seems to just be a verse about God limiting how long our mortal bodies live.

The thought you express seems to be found more in Romans 1 ...

[Romans 1:18, 21, 24, 26, 28, 32 NIV]

• 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, ...
• 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. ...
• 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. ...
• 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. ...
• 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. ...
• 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[MartyF]

Is it possible to be saved through Christ without hearing his word from a missionary or someone else?

Yes.

Is it likely?

No.

God being revealed through nature only condemns. It does not save.

After God is revealed through nature, can a person can then seek Jesus and receive the holy spirit?

I won't discount this. There are several sections of the Bible from Deuteronomy 30, Joel 2, and so on which support this possibility. However, there are several which seem to oppose this.

For my part, if someone didn't know I would definitely tell them.

Marty

 

[OnlyaSinner]

IMO, the general revelation described in Romans 1:19-20 implies that one who views the natural world with an open mind will conclude that there must be a Creator, and should seek to know that Creator. One who seeks will find, and in this case will search until encountering the Gospel of Christ (specific revelation), and will then surrender to Him and receive salvation. God can do anything, of course, but I cannot believe He would do anything that's contrary to His revealed word.

I doubt the human mind is capable of fully understanding the relationship of God's complete sovereignty and man's free will, any more than we'll understand fully how Christ could be fully God and fully man. The illustration of the former "paradox" that I like is that of a doorway. Viewed from without, there is a sign over the top that reads, "Whosoever will, may come." Viewed from within, a sign over the door reads, "Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world."

 

[HAMel]

OnlyaSinner..., how right you are. Romans 1:19-20 sums it up.