The Gospel of Jesus Christ (Death, Burial & Resurrection)

[John of Japan]

Anyway, just wanted to run it by you folks and see how many people believe that man can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His atonement. Yes, I know, the world is in terrible shape.

Regards, Jim

The usual point made in defense of that view is that they can find God through their own religion, be it Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.

As you may know, I was a missionary to Japan for 33 years. I have preached in multiple countries to people from multiple religions, and I can tell you this: all religions (including forms of Christianity without the true Gospel) lead people away from God, and not to him. I can't comprehend how a Bible believer could think otherwise.

Again, natural revelation can lead one to seek truth, but nothing in the Bible indicates that natural revelation can save. Jesus alone is the Way, Truth, and Life.

 

[Yeshua1]

The usual point made in defense of that view is that they can find God through their own religion, be it Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.

As you may know, I was a missionary to Japan for 33 years. I have preached in multiple countries to people from multiple religions, and I can tell you this: all religions (including forms of Christianity without the true Gospel) lead people away from God, and not to him. I can't comprehend how a Bible believer could think otherwise.

Again, natural revelation can lead one to seek truth, but nothing in the Bible indicates that natural revelation can save. Jesus alone is the Way, Truth, and Life.

natural revelation can show to us God exists, but only special revelation of scriptures and Jesus Himself give to us salvation, as in coming to know that awesome Creator, and his Son Jesus Christ.

This view of his seems to echo that of Roman Catholic church, that sees God grace extending into other religions, so that those who are ignorant of Jesus, but sincere to their own faith, will get saved!

 

[TCassidy]

Again, natural revelation can lead one to seek truth, but nothing in the Bible indicates that natural revelation can save. Jesus alone is the Way, Truth, and Life.

Amen. In my home church, where I was saved, baptized, and married, there was an old man who had been a missionary in South Africa for most of his life (he was a 3rd generation missionary, born on the field in South Africa). He told a story that went a long way to answer this question, at least in my mind.

He and three of his fellow missionaries were traveling out into the remote savanna reaching new villages with the Gospel.

On their way their vehicle broke an axle and could not go any farther. They split up, two and two. Two went back to the nearest village which had a telephone to call for a tow, and two went on to the village they were heading for.

When they arrived at the village they walked into it along the main road but there were no people. Then they noticed that all the people were in their huts, hiding. None of them had ever seen a white man before (this was in the 1920s).

But coming down the middle of the road toward them was one old man. He approached the two missionaries and asked them "Are you the men who have come to tell us about God?"

Needless to say the missionaries were astonished and asked "How did you know?

The old man said, "When I was a boy tending my father's cattle I would lie on the side of the hill and look at the stars. And as I looked I realize someone much greater than I had made all that I could see. And that I owed this One my thanks and obedience. So I prayed that He would send someone to tell us about Himself. That was 70 years ago. And now, here you are."

Needless to say, the missionaries prayed, and preached, and many of the village people were saved. On their second trip to the village a church was established with the old man, who was also the village chief, as pastor.

God answers prayer. And those who have never heard are not missed nor ignored by God. He will make sure all who want and need to hear will hear.

What happened with the car with the broken axle is a whole other story.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hi Everyone, I haven't participated on here in about a hundred years. The conversations seemed quite "UN" Godly, so I just wanted to stay out of the fray.

This came up recently which is probably going to cause me to leave a church. Actually we have left, but haven't made it permanent until after we talk with the pastor.

Our SS teacher started off by saying that the people in "deep dark Africa" didn't have to hear the GOSPEL in order to be saved. He felt that the scripture in Romans 1 about "without excuse" was enough to allow them to be saved; that knowing "the Godhead" would suffice for Jesus Christ. He couldn't explain how they could be saved, but he "knows they can". This came from an 80+ year old IFB preacher. I almost fell off my chair and questioned it, saying that if there were another way of Salvation outside of the Gospel, then God is a liar, and it is impossible for God to lie. And there were other senior Christians who agreed with him stating that it was just a matter of faith.

After that, I have been reading about exclusivists, inclusivists, etc, etc, and found a lot of beliefs that I didn't think even existed.

Anyway, just wanted to run it by you folks and see how many people believe that man can be saved without knowing about Jesus Christ and His atonement. Yes, I know, the world is in terrible shape.

Regards, Jim

My understanding of Romans leads me to conclude the very opposite view. Romans 1:18 indicates that those exposed to either light of conscience or light of nature naturally suppress ("hold" more literally "suppress") that light. Later on, Paul clearly states this natural enmity against God and his law (Rom. 8:7). Paul is defending God's just wrath against both gentiles and Jews and he makes his summary conclusion to his arguments from Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:8 in Romans 3:9-23.

The whole of human nature existed in Adam and the whole human race chose to defy God's law (Rom.5:12) and that is why Paul repeatedly argues "by the one man's disobedience....many be dead...be condemned.....be made sinners..." He does not argue that because of "many mens' sins many be dead....condemned....made sinners. That would have to be his argument if individuals be dead, be condemned, be made sinners due to their own personal sins. This is why Jesus said they came into the world "condemned already" (Jn. 3:17-18).

God sends the gospel to his elect. In regard to dying infants, I believe Romans 5:13-15 makes a further argument that their death between Adam and Moses proves they had already been condemned due to one man's disobedience since infants die in the womb without any development of conscience, and so conscience cannot be the law broken by infants that results in their death or the death of any other human.

However, I believe Romans 5:20 argues that grace in the second Adam Christ is greater than the death in the first Adam. Infants do not commit any personal conscious knowing act of sin but are condemned to death on the basis of one man's disobedience. I believe in Christ they are saved by grace on the very same basis as they were condemned in Adam by pure election. So I expect there will be more in heaven than in hell as where "sin abounded grace DID MUCH MORE ABOUND." - Rom. 5:20

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, … I guess we can just forget about praying for and sending missionaries to the nations of the earth. All that would be necessary is to pray that every man would wake up, walk outside, and look at the beautiful sunrise.... and presto, … he is a part of the family of God. NOT!!!

Dr RC Sproul believes that God, in His sovereignty chooses who will be saved and regenerates them without them believing the gospel, so his perspective is convoluted from the get-go...

No, the Bible clearly states that men (humanity) are saved by the foolishness of preaching. It is necessary for the gospel to be preached and for lost people to hear and believe the message of the Cross and to receive the Savior in order to be saved.

1 Cor 1:21
21 For since, in God's wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached.

Rom 10:13-17
3 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 11:14
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved​

No! Men are saved by hearing words, not by seeing the beauty of nature. What kind of words? … the words of the gospel.

Viewing nature can help people to understand that their is design to the universe, and therefore a Creator, but they must hear the gospel in order to be born again.

.

You have misunderstood and misapplied the late Dr. Sproul's stance. Yes, he believed that God sovereignly chose who He would save, as I do as well. But, He does not regenerate them out of thin air, but via the gospel of the Christ. No one wakes up one day, never hearing the gospel, never having a bible in their hand, and 'poof' they're regenerated. That's where the work of the missionaries comes in. And, FYI, I am a Missionary Baptist.

 

[Yeshua1]

You have misunderstood and misapplied the late Dr. Sproul's stance. Yes, he believed that God sovereignly chose who He would save, as I do as well. But, He does not regenerate them out of thin air, but via the gospel of the Christ. No one wakes up one day, never hearing the gospel, never having a bible in their hand, and 'poof' they're regenerated. That's where the work of the missionaries comes in. And, FYI, I am a Missionary Baptist.

Some labeled you a sa Hyper Calvinist, and know that is not true, as none of them would be into "missionary baptist" work...

 

[Paco]

You have misunderstood and misapplied the late Dr. Sproul's stance. Yes, he believed that God sovereignly chose who He would save, as I do as well. But, He does not regenerate them out of thin air, but via the gospel of the Christ. No one wakes up one day, never hearing the gospel, never having a bible in their hand, and 'poof' they're regenerated. That's where the work of the missionaries comes in. And, FYI, I am a Missionary Baptist.

No. Not at all. I am very sure of Dr Sproul's position. I have heard him say it many times. "Regeneration precedes faith." He taught that no one could believe the gospel unless they were regenerated. That is also the position of most Calvinists today. And I oppose that Reformed theological position as being gross error.

 

[TCassidy]

No. Not at all. I am very sure of Dr Sproul's position. I have heard him say it many times. "Regeneration precedes faith." He taught that no one could believe the gospel unless they were regenerated. That is also the position of most Calvinists today. And I oppose that Reformed theological position as being gross error.

Another excellent example of arguing against a position you don't understand. "Regeneration precedes faith" does NOT mean that a person is regenerated apart from the Gospel.

A person hears the Gospel preached.
God opens the understanding of the hearer (regenerates).
The person now believes, repents, and obeys.

Not one word in there about never hearing of Christ nor the Gospel.

God uses the means of Gospel preaching to reach the lost.

 

[Yeshua1]

Another excellent example of arguing against a position you don't understand. "Regeneration precedes faith" does NOT mean that a person is regenerated apart from the Gospel.

A person hears the Gospel preached.
God opens the understanding of the hearer (regenerates).
The person now believes, repents, and obeys.

Not one word in there about never hearing of Christ nor the Gospel.

God uses the means of Gospel preaching to reach the lost.

The ones who would hold to there being no real need for the gospel would be those such as the Hyper Calvinists.

 

[MartyF]

The usual point made in defense of that view is that they can find God through their own religion, be it Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.

I want to make clear that I don’t believe that one can be saved by being a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim. They would have to seek Jesus. Anyone saved through Jesus would always place the Gospel over other religions.

Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims do not share the same morality as Christians do. If someone thinks this is the case, they should examine their own faith.

Marty

 

[John of Japan]

I want to make clear that I don’t believe that one can be saved by being a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim. They would have to seek Jesus. Anyone saved through Jesus would always place the Gospel over other religions.

Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims do not share the same morality as Christians do. If someone thinks this is the case, they should examine their own faith.

Marty

Not only do they not share the same morality, they do not share the same gods, the same revelation, the same modes of worship, etc., etc.

I am most familiar with Buddhism, of course, but have also preached to Muslims and Hindus, and have lectured on Islam. In order for someone to draw nigh to God who is connected with one of those religions, they would have to ignore their own doctrine! Of these religions, only Islam has any teaching about Jesus Christ, and it is mistaken teaching.

Again, there is nothing in natural revelation that will draw a person specifically to Christ. Rather, one can come to a knowledge of the existence of a benevolent God through natural revelation, nothing more.

 

[Yeshua1]

I want to make clear that I don’t believe that one can be saved by being a Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim. They would have to seek Jesus. Anyone saved through Jesus would always place the Gospel over other religions.

Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims do not share the same morality as Christians do. If someone thinks this is the case, they should examine their own faith.

Marty

Morality saves no one, as that would be due to the Grace of God, only found in Christianity!

 

[Yeshua1]

Not only do they not share the same morality, they do not share the same gods, the same revelation, the same modes of worship, etc., etc.

I am most familiar with Buddhism, of course, but have also preached to Muslims and Hindus, and have lectured on Islam. In order for someone to draw nigh to God who is connected with one of those religions, they would have to ignore their own doctrine! Of these religions, only Islam has any teaching about Jesus Christ, and it is mistaken teaching.

Again, there is nothing in natural revelation that will draw a person specifically to Christ. Rather, one can come to a knowledge of the existence of a benevolent God through natural revelation, nothing more.

On eof the extreme statements that must be challenged is one hears "all religions teach basically the same thing/Jesus and other religious leaders agree" The truth is that they do not!

 

[Dave G]

So I expect there will be more in heaven than in hell as where "sin abounded grace DID MUCH MORE ABOUND." - Rom. 5:20

With respect, I'd have to disagree:

" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:13-14 )

I would love it to be so, but God's word is against it.


May God bless you, sir.

 

[The Biblicist]

With respect, I'd have to disagree:

" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:13-14 )

I would love it to be so, but God's word is against it.


May God bless you, sir.

Two different contexts. Matthew 7 is addressing those with volitional determination ("enter ye....which go in". In direct contrast Romans 5:12-20 is speaking about two persons (Adam vs Christ) as representative actors. So, you are correct when it comes to personal determination but I was speaking of those incapable of personal determination and who die without that ability and my view was based upon representative choice.

 

[unprofitable]

There are a lot of good points and questions made in this topic. I must say I do believe in the doctrines of grace but am not a calvinist. Calvin hated and persecuted our Baptist forefathers so I have no use for him.

One of the questions I must ask is concerning the status of children who die in the womb. As we know sovereign grace doctrine teaches that those predestined to be saved will be saved regardless. It is not of the will of man, (Rom 9:16) but of the will of God in revealing himself to his people. John 17:3 says, And this is life eternal (eternal salvation), that they might know thee, the only true God AND Jesus Christ who thou has sent." Matthew 11:27 says, "...and no man knoweth the son but the Father, neither any man the Father, save the son and he, to whomsoever the son will reveal him." Jeremiah 31:34 says ..."for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them sayeth the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity and remember their sins no more." Ephesians 3:10 says,..."that it might be known by (revealed unto) THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God." These are the teachings of the new covenant, the constitution so to speak, of the kingdom of God How can this apply to a baby that dies in the womb, (or a hindu or muslim for that matter) and have no knowledge of "the only true God and Jesus Christ." I must also ask, is God unrighteous who predestined Jacob to this knowledge but blinded Esau? God forbid. It would therefore seem to follow that He is just as righteous in not allowing babies in the womb to come to the birth that they might see these great covenant teachings of the gospel or the good news of the KINGDOM. What is the difference? How can we contend for the doctrines of grace, then in trying to give spiritual life to unborn infants, essentially say if they had been born they would have had a chance to make a decision to "give their life to Christ"? The teachings are in confilict. Christ says in John 14:15, "if ye love me, keep MY commandments (covenant)." How can an unborn child "Hear the words of this covenant, and do them?" Jer 11:6" The loss of a child is a very painful, emotional event. We cannot let emotion confound the word of God.

 

[unprofitable]

Sorry, didn't see the attached file before I posted.

 

[Van]

Hi Unprofitable,

The fate of those who never had a chance to volitionally sin is not clearly answered in scripture. Lots of "theologians" have offered speculation which provides salvation for them, and others look at the text and see no path for those who die in "unbelief."

My speculation is that our just and loving God allows them to rest in piece, with no conscientiousness of the afterlife.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi Unprofitable,

The fate of those who never had a chance to volitionally sin is not clearly answered in scripture. Lots of "theologians" have offered speculation which provides salvation for them, and others look at the text and see no path for those who die in "unbelief."

My speculation is that our just and loving God allows them to rest in piece, with no conscientiousness of the afterlife.

ALL will be raised up by God, some for heaven, rest for hell...
My understanding would be that God has chosen to elect unto salvation, to Himself apply the Grace of the Cross towards those such as infants and those without mental abilities to understand the Good news...

 

[unprofitable]

Bro HAMel said

"]I find it interesting how some folks try to limit our Lord. To box Him in. Consider the following:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25)

...the world itself could not contain the books...??? Oh my..., how can this be? We have the Bible and it says that men are saved through the foolishness of preaching..., so that nails the lid down! According to that our Lord cannot save anyone He so desires unless they hear the message from a Preacher?

No thank you. My God is bigger than yours and I just can't find it in my to box Him in. To limit Him.

I mean, if there isn't enough room in the world to "contain all the books that should be written", perhaps..., just perhaps, a long shot if you will..., but just perhaps our Lord did not include all of His majesty within the Bible. Could He have left the door open for greater things for lesser people

In John 15:15, Christ tell his disciples"...ALL THINGS (concerning the new covenant) I have heard of my Father, I HAVE MADE KNOWN unto you (the church, the kingdom of God). The repeated command of the Father to the prophets was to declare unto Israel to "Hear the words of this covenant and do them." (Jer 11:6) Likewise, Christ, as THAT prophet, is declaring the new covenant, ordinances, sayings, words, commandments. He tells them in John 14, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Eze 11:20 says, "That they may walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances and do them, and they shall be my people and I will be their God." How can His people keep his commandments (covenant) and do them if they have not been told? How can the church keep its commission (the charge, the will- Ezra 1:2, Mt 16:18) if it has not been told what it is? Therefore the all things (His ways) revealed/ made known to the church is complete in the scriptures and has no need for other additions or books in order to be understood by his people. All things means He has not left out ANYTHING concerning the pattern of the body of Christ, the church, described in the new covenant, How can we be conformed to and build according to his express image, if we do not know what it is? How can judgment and justice be done Gen 18:19) if ALL the words of the covenant (Exo 24:8, Jn 5:20) are not made know to His servants. Exodus 25:9 says, "According to ALL (things) that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, the pattern of ALL the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it." Since He shewed Moses ALL the pattern of the tabernacIe, it was necessary that Christ shew his disciples All the pattern of the true temple of God, the body of Christ, the church because a greater than Moses is come. I in no way disagree with your posting John 21:25. I do know if all thing that Christ did/spoke were written, they would still be after the same pattern/blueprint. The covenant was not just for those during the time of Christ but for His seedline/generation to follow (Gen 18:19), therefore it is necessary that the church today be given the same ALL THINGS/blueprint/covenant/teachings of the gospel/kingdom of God that we might know how to edify the body of Christ (Eph 4:16)

It is not limiting the Father in declaring those things in which He has intimately revealed himself/ His majesty/glory that HE IS/I AM to his people. How can his glory be declared if we do not know His mighty works? (Mt 16:18, I Cor 12:18, Isa 45:11) To Him be glory/majesty IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Eph 3:21.