The Gospel of YOUR Salvation !

[BobRyan]

We know a man in the state of nature cannot believe the Gospel revelation, for believing denotes knowing 2 Tim 1:12

12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

1 Jn 4:16

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 Jn 5:13

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

And yet Paul writes of the natural man 1 Cor 2:11,14

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Now what foolish person would deny that the Gospel is one of the many things scripturally known as the Things of God ?1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross [Gospel] is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If so, no man knoweth it by nature, it must be revealed to them and in them by the Spirit of God !

True - without the supernatural work of God - lost man is not inclined toward the Gospel.

But we have this for the supernatural work of God.

"I will DRAW all men unto Me" John 12:32
The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

God asks "what more could be done that I have not done"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

The Gospel to Particular Characters !

The Gospel Call as it relates to Salvation in Christ is directed by the Spirit to particular Characters ! Those in false religion make a great deal that when it comes to The Gospel , that its a free for all for all people without exception, yet its promises are directed to particulars in character, for instance Jesus speaking of the New Covenant Gospel, since His Death is that of the New Covenant Matt 26:28, states that it is Preached to the character of the Poor Lk 7:22

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Lk 4:18

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

BTW this is who the Gospel is a word of Salvation to, the Poor in Spirit !

This Lk 4:18 reference is a restatement of Isa 61:1

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Here the Poor are identified as the Meek, and meekness is a fruit of the Spirit, as well as poor in Spirit Gal 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Now Jesus and His servants He sends as His ambassadors are sent and anointed to Preach the Good News of the Gospel to that particular Character, as a word of Salvation !

This Truth is a confirmation of Particular Redemption !

 

[Darrell C]

We know a man in the state of nature cannot believe the Gospel revelation, for believing denotes knowing 2 Tim 1:12

12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

1 Jn 4:16

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 Jn 5:13

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

And yet Paul writes of the natural man 1 Cor 2:11,14

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Now what foolish person would deny that the Gospel is one of the many things scripturally known as the Things of God ?1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross [Gospel] is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

If so, no man knoweth it by nature, it must be revealed to them and in them by the Spirit of God !

It is true man cannot in his nature know the spiritual things of God, however, God is in the business of revelation:


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)



Before the Law there was still no excuse not to obey whatever form of revelation God gave one.

After the Law, that did not mean Gentiles could not also come under obedience to God, and in fact be justified (which is not to be equated with salvation in Christ) by accomplishing the works of the Law which was written on their hearts.

We do not equate this revelation to specific revelation, but at the same time we do not deny what Scripture states. It has nothing to do with anything inherent in man's ability, but has to do with God revealing His will to mankind.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
We see the love of God manifested in His revelation of Himself to all men:


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.......

This passage says not one word about the "love of God". What verse in the above passage mentions the "love of God", moreover what verse in the above passage says that this "love" extends to every human being?

You're forgetting that these people...knew about God.

These are not people ignorant of God.

Now ask yourself...why did they know in the first place? Do you think that God revealed His will to them so he could have an excuse to judge them?

It doesn't say this. However, it does say that his invisible attributes are seen in nature, thus the truth that there is a God is clear even to the non-elect, thus they will be without excuse when they are condemned to eternal damnation.

Notice that "what may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
.......

This passage says a child of God has Christ's law "written in their hearts", but how did it get there? Ezekiel 36:26-27 tells us, "26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them"

Where do you see "a child of God?" You are imposing that in the text and that is why you are failing to see my point.

I see Gentile, and this is contrasted with the Jews, who had the Oracles (Word) of God.

Also, Ezekiel 36:22-27 is a promise, and the clearest picture of the New Covenant we have in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

First notice how many times in the two verse passage God says "I will" (not "man will"),also notice it says God will, "cause you to walk in my statutes", finally notice the recipient of the new heart is passive in the whole passage except for the walking in the statutes which God causes him to walk in.

Technically there are five "I Wills" in the Promise.

Often thought of writing a sermon of that title (Five I Wills) and contrasting it with the I wills of Lucifer.

You seem to think I am teaching free will. That is not the case. I am against free will as well as regenerational faith, which is also error.

God does not save people then they have faith, they palce faith in Christ in response to the enlightening the Comforter provides as He convicts the natural man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
[His wrath is generated, not because people are inherently depraved, and they are, being natural, and separated from Him...but because they, knowing the truth, reject the truth.].......

Again, I say how can they reject something that is never said to be "offered"?

It is said to be offered and we see that before and after the Cross and Pentecost:


Romans 10:12-20

King James Version (KJV)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.


It is found in Scripture, my friend.

God is rich unto all that call Him. He sends His Word to all, but not all obey.

And in this Age...


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Further scripture is clear that it is because people without the Holy Spirit are inherently depraved that they will not repent and believe the gospel.

And that means everyone without exception. You cannot deny it.

Nobody is indwelt until they receive the Gospel.

One is nor regenerated so they can believe, but are born again because they believe.

We cannot deny the part the Word of God, in this Age the Gospel of Christ, has in man's new birth:


1 Peter 1:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:44),

This is of the pre-Pentecost Era.

No-one was born again at this time.

also Jesus says goats cannot believe his words, only the sheep, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you" (John 10:26).

And who did Christ minister to?


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 15:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Would Christ have withheld the Gospel of Christ if that was what He and they were preaching?

The Gospel of the Kingdom had to do with the Millennial Kingdom, which is also seen in the promise of Ezekiel 36.

What did Paul say the preaching of the gospel was to the unsaved, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

You call them unsaved, and that is true, but the text says perishing. And they are perishing because they reject the Gospel.

You just need to focus on God's part in this, which is to reveal His will to mankind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
[We see that in such passages as...

2 Peter 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:[/SIZE].].......

This passage just says the non-elect are willingly ignorant of the word of God.

Bingo, though you impose "non-elect" into the passage. The group in view is the entire world with the exception of 8 souls only.

The willful ignorance is on the part of those that do not give thought to God's judgment in the Flood.

Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil,

No, mankind is not free to choose. He cannot choose to be saved.

Only God can enlighten a man and give him that opportunity.

You actually cancel your point in saying he is free to choose, and I reject free will totally.

and before having His Spirit in him scripture tells us, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5), thus of course the non-elect are willingly ignorant of the word of God.

That era has nothing to do with regeneration. No-one was born again until after Pentecost. Only in this Age have men been made acceptable to come into God's presence in Heaven. Sins still remained to the account of even men like Abraham and David, Elijah and Moses.

The Eternal indwelling of God began when the Comforter came:


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Scripture tells us faith is a fruit of the Spirit.

That is true.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith" (Galatians 5:22).

That is true also.

Therefore one must first have the tree that produces the fruit inside them (i.e. the Holy Spirit) before he can produce the fruit (faith) to believe the gospel.

That is true.

However, that does not mean men are quickened so they can believe.

You realize you defeat the Sovereignty of God as well as Eternal Security with this well intentioned, but unscriptural position, don't you?

Let me show you why:


2 Peter 2:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


The fact is that these people, who in Jude we see are ordained for eternal destruction...knew. They are not ignorant, and like those Paul speaks about in Romans 10 they will have no excuse.

Here is another example of people who willfully reject Christ and the Comforter:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


In view here is a contrast of those that rejected God's will under the Law, the Covenant, and those that reject God's will in Christ, the New Covenant.

So if God regenerates men so they might believe, then we have to also advocate loss of salvation.

Thankfully Scripture teaches both of those positions are incorrect.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Life must always precede action, this is a basic principle, but before one is born again they are said to be spiritually "dead in sins" (for phrase "dead in sins" see Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, Colossians 2:13, and 1 Peter 2:24). A dead man cannot do anything can it? Let alone, believe something such as the gospel.

Just some advice: post the Scriptures. People are typically lazy and just to get them to read what you have posted is a challenge, lol.

You are correct, though, Christ makes it clear that even Moses was dead:


John 6:49-53

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Salvation requires faith in the Cross of Christ, His death. It was not until after His death that men could place their faith in Him.

The Comforter convicts, not the Elect, but the world, identified as sinners:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Thus the scripture tells us we must be sovereignly "quickened" by the Holy Spirit

Could you show me where it says that we must be regenerated to believe?

(without any means of man)

Very true.

to believe the gospel

Not true.

Again, those charged with not obeying the Gospel have heard the Gospel and willfully rejected it.

If I say you have failed to obey the fratzenkroft (the Law of Freekzlbreft), what would you say? Are you guilty or not?

(for the "quickening" of one who is "dead in sins" by the Spirit see Ephesians 2:1, 2:5, and Colossians 2:13).

Ephesians 2:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


Colossians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;




Nothing about being made alive so we can believe.

Nothing that denies there are people who hear, believe, and reject the truth.

It was true in Romans 1 and 2, and true in Romans 10. True in 2 Peter, Hebrews 10, and here...


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The corollary is that the gospel profited those who had faith in what they heard.

And this is not the Gospel of Christ, but the revealed will of God in that day, which if you look in ch.3 you will see they were unbelievers. They received the will of God, but rejected it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
[It is God's love that motivated Him to reveal truth to all men, even those who reject that truth thus coming under wrath.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;].].......

Of course the non-elect "obey not the gospel" as Paul tells us,

You're missing the primary point: they had to hear the Gospel to be held guilty of failure to obey.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

because the "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

That does not nullify the fact that those things are in fact revealed by the Spirit. That's the whole point Paul is making, that the Gospel was a mystery not revealed to men at all, and revealed now to men by the Spirit:


1 Corinthians 2:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Most see the quote as speaking about Heaven, but it is not. It speaks about the Gospel. Had Satan known this knowledge he would have assigned the greatest guard detail man had ever known, that the Lord not so much as stub His toe.

The context is not one which supports the doctrine that men have to be saved to understand and believe. The truth is that every atheist believes, he just fights against that knowledge within him or her.

However, if Christ died for an individual, and they "believe not", the do not go to Hell as Paul told us, "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:13), thus even this is forgiven.

There is no such thing as a non-believing believer. All believer believe whether they admit it or not. I have spoken with atheists that say they use to, but don't now.

They are lying.

Paul's point is it is not our belief that makes God faithful. He would still be faithful whether anyone believes or not.

However those he did not die for will not only go to Hell for their unbelief, but also for all their wicked works, this is why Revelation 20:12 tells us regarding unbelievers at the end day, "... I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

He died for the world:


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
[Can't be held guilty of not obeying the Gospel if one has never heard the Gospel.
]].].......

What scripture says that? None.

Brother Joe

We see this principle in a number of passages, and I am out of time so will just post these:


Romans 5:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


We see varying degree of punishment according to knowledge here:


2 Peter 2:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


God did not hold men accountable for things they were not aware of.

When the Law was given men had no excuse in regards to what was commanded.

So too, with the Gospel, we see over and over that God loved the world, not just the Elect, and that He has in all ages spoken unto men His will.

And that is all the time I have.


God bless.

 

[Rippon]

Bingo, though you impose "non-elect" into the passage. The group in view is the entire world with the exception of 8 souls only.

With the exception of those eight souls the rest of humanity received the judgment of God --hence they were indeed non-elect.

No, mankind is not free to choose. He cannot choose to be saved.

Only God can enlighten a man and give him that opportunity.

You actually cancel your point in saying he is free to choose, and I reject free will totally.

BrotherJoseph had said :"Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil."

You have ignored his point though you quoted him. He certainly is not an advocate of free-will. Free to choose according to his nature is contrary to the myth of free will.

However, that does not mean men are quickened so they can believe.

He made us alive in Christ even we were dead in our transgressions. (Eph.2:5;Col.2:13;Jn.5:21)

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The Gospel Call as it relates to Salvation in Christ is directed by the Spirit to particular Characters ! Those in false religion make a great deal that when it comes to The Gospel , that its a free for all for all people without exception, yet its promises are directed to particulars in character, for instance Jesus speaking of the New Covenant Gospel, since His Death is that of the New Covenant Matt 26:28, states that it is Preached to the character of the Poor Lk 7:22

22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Lk 4:18

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

BTW this is who the Gospel is a word of Salvation to, the Poor in Spirit !

This Lk 4:18 reference is a restatement of Isa 61:1

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Here the Poor are identified as the Meek, and meekness is a fruit of the Spirit, as well as poor in Spirit Gal 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Now Jesus and His servants He sends as His ambassadors are sent and anointed to Preach the Good News of the Gospel to that particular Character, as a word of Salvation !

This Truth is a confirmation of Particular Redemption !

Brother SavedbyMercy,

Good post. I would also add that contrary to the popular belief of modern day religionists no place in the Bible is the gospel explicitly referred to as an "offer" or that one should "accept Jesus", on the contrary it states Jesus has (past tense) through his sacrifice made His people "accepted". }To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:6). Further, many assert that by their will they must accept Jesus, but Ephesians tells us one being accepted is by God's will, "5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Ephesians 1:5). Also, the so called Lord's prayer is nowhere to be found in the scripture's or altar calls to get one saved.

 

[savedbymercy]

Brother SavedbyMercy,

Good post. I would also add that contrary to the popular belief of modern day religionists no place in the Bible is the gospel explicitly referred to as an "offer" or that one should "accept Jesus", on the contrary it states Jesus has (past tense) through his sacrifice made His people "accepted". }To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:6). Further, many assert that by their will they must accept Jesus, but Ephesians tells us one being accepted is by God's will, "5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Ephesians 1:5). Also, the so called Lord's prayer is nowhere to be found in the scripture's or altar calls to get one saved.

Thanks for your timely feedback!

 

[savedbymercy]

The Call of the Gospel is discriminate !

The Call of the Gospel goes out to certain characters according to the Everlasting Covenant, it goes out to them that are Thirsty Isa 55:1

Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Notice this call isnt to everyone without exception, but to everyone who Thirsteth !

Jesus said Jn 7:37

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Again, a discriminate call , not to all without exception, but specifically to any man that thirst !

Jesus here is speaking in the tenure of Isa 55:1 !

Now understand something, this is not talking about a mere physical thirst for literal h2o from a river, a well, or facet, but this is a Spiritual Thirst for God and or the Things of God Ps 42:1-2

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God.

2 My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?


Thirsting for the Living God, the One here 1 Thess 1:9

For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Heb 9:14

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Yet man by nature has not this Thirst, Desire for the True and Living God, Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The word seeketh here the greek word ekzeteo:

I seek out, seek out after, require.

properly, seek out, emphasizing the personal intent of the seeker, i.e. the outcome intensely and personally desired by the seeker. This seeking is only as valuable (viable) as the motive which drives it.

to seek out for oneself, beg, crave. All these words are synonyms for Thirst, strong desire !

This Spiritual desire, thirst for God is something man by nature, spiritually dead, alienated from the Life of God, does not do and can not do, for its totally out of his element !

So the Ones doing it, its a sign of Spiritual Life in their Souls, and thats who Isa 55:1 is focused upon, and with it are Gospel Promises attached, the Everlasting Covenant, even the sure mercies of David !

 

[Darrell C]

Bingo, though you impose "non-elect" into the passage. The group in view is the entire world with the exception of 8 souls only.

With the exception of those eight souls the rest of humanity received the judgment of God --hence they were indeed non-elect.

Nothing in the text by which one could be dogmatic about that.

Judgment is dependent upon man's response to revelation provided to them by God. I presented the principle of varying degrees of accountability for man, where the judgment, for example, of one who rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law) would not be punished as severely as those rejecting the New Covenant. The Old Testament rejecter will be held accountable for rejecting the revelation provided them, in the case of the Children of Israel in the Wilderness, it was a very simple gospel: God has redeemed you out of temporal bondage, and will lead you into rest (the promised land). They yearned for the fleshly comforts of "home," and were not filled with the Spirit, which is not surprising seeing they desired to have leeks.

That's a joke, by the way.

We see this here as well:


Matthew 12:39-42

King James Version (KJV)

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Not only does this show the varying degrees of judgment, it shows the progressive nature of revelation.


Matthew 11:16-24

King James Version (KJV)

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.


Now here is a benefit from understanding the concept of Hell and Hades as mentioned in the other thread: in view here is the physical death of these people for their sin. Hades in in view concerning their death, and repentance (which arises from specific revelation, here shown to be that which Christ revealed to the audience)would have, according to Christ our Lord...saved them from physical death, which was the penalty for sin in Pre-Pentecost Ages.

Varying degrees of punishment. Defining properly the punishment.

All of these things have to be considered.

No, mankind is not free to choose. He cannot choose to be saved.

Only God can enlighten a man and give him that opportunity.

You actually cancel your point in saying he is free to choose, and I reject free will totally.

BrotherJoseph had said :"Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil."

And the Biblical truth is...he is not.

The natural man has inclination for only evil, not righteousness.

He is depraved in his natural state, remember?

He cannot choose to be righteous, to seek after God, to reconcile himself to God...in his natural state. He is 100% dependent on the intervention of God, and it is God that enlightens him to his condition and the remedy for that condition.

Do you see now how free will is actually imposed into his view without it being recognized?

You have ignored his point though you quoted him.

I addressed his point in detail just as I am addressing yours.

He certainly is not an advocate of free-will.

Indirectly he is, and you, in supporting what he has said, are too.

I don't say that to upset you, offend you, or carry on hostilities you have brought to every exchange we have had.

I tell you that because it is true.

Just consider what the implication of man having free will of any kind means.

Here it is again, in your own words:

:"Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil."

Does the leopard choose to have spots?

In order for their to be a choice in this context man must also have the option to choose to be righteous.

He does not. Left to his own devices man will sin. That is not free will, that is bondage to sin, which only Christ can remedy.

Beyond that, we also look at the fact that man has no life in him apart from eating of Christ flesh and drinking of His blood, which is a euphemism for trusting in Christ's death.

Free to choose according to his nature is contrary to the myth of free will.

It is free will, just packaged up in different wrapping.

However, that does not mean men are quickened so they can believe.

He made us alive in Christ even we were dead in our transgressions. (Eph.2:5;Col.2:13;Jn.5:21)

Again, this is like saying only the saved will be saved.

I am not denying only the Elect are the People of God, but what we have to do is recognize the love of God and see it as expressed to the world in the revelation He has always given to man.

I have again shown the progressive nature of revelation and the distinctions drawn between those different Economies. It cannot be denied that Christ makes it clear that what He revealed in His day was not revealed to those in the Old Testament.

If you would just place your focus on the Doctrine you would see that this is true. We cannot change the Word of Christ, and must bring our Theology under conformity with His teachings.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

The same Gospel !

Many in false religion would tell us that Paul and Peter preached a different Gospel, one for the jews [Peter] and one for the Gentiles [Paul], but that is a absolute lie, in fact, that Paul Preached the same Gospel to both jew and Gentile alike is seen from Rom 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In the greek it reads τὸ εὐαγγέλιον The Gospel with the definite article, its the one and only Gospel !

It appears to be True by the reading of 1 Cor 1:11-17

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


It also appears to be True from a reading of 1 Cor 3:4-5

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Paul, Cephas and Apollos are all ministers by which the Corinthian Believers believed by their Preaching of the same Gospel !

Paul and Peter had Fellowship in the same Gospel Gal 2:8-10

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles )

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Fellowship meant agreement 2 Cor 6:14-16

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Phil 1:5

For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

Remember when Paul reproved Peter ? What was it for ?

Gal 2:14

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Evidently they believed and Preached the same Gospel, and Paul rebuked Peter for not walking uprightly concerning it in a particular matter !

For both Paul and Peter were Apostles for the Body of Christ where there is no racial division in the things of God Eph 4:11-12

11 And he gave some, apostles[Paul and Peter]; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Yet carnal false believers would have the Body of Christ divided in a racial sense, inspite of Gal 3:26-28

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And they ignorantly and foolishly tell us that Paul and Peter preached Two different Gospels, based upon the flesh, ethnicity, race, yet nothing is further away from the Truth !

 

[savedbymercy]

Pauls Gospel same as that of the OT Prophets !

Paul Preached the same Gospel of Christ dying for the sins of His People 1 Cor 15:3-4

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


According to the scriptures here means OT scriptures ! This fact alone is evidence that Pauls Gospel was that of what the OT scriptures Taught about Christ !

Paul relates his Gospel to the OT Church Acts 26:21-23

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

23 That Christ should suffer [and die], and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Listen, Moses and the Prophets testified to the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ, That He should suffer unto death, that He should be the first that should rise from the dead, now who denies that is what Paul means in 1 Cor 15:3-4 ?

And that He should show light unto the People and to the Gentiles ! Isa 49:6

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Lk 2:32

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

 

[savedbymercy]

darrellc

It is true man cannot in his nature know the spiritual things of God, however, God is in the business of revelation:

That being True, its not until man has a new nature by new birth that he will be able to know the things of God revealed in the Gospel !

 

[BrotherJoseph]

First note that condemnation came to all men.

That includes the Elect. They are not secluded from that general group w call sinners, and natural, and lost.

Secondly, the text dot not say every man is saved, but as condemnation came upon all men, so too, the Gift, not salvation, came to all men....

Brother Darrell,

You left off the last part of the verse, it says, "...the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18), thus if you interpret the "all men" in this verse as every human being, we see the effect of the free gift is "unto justification", thus you have every human being justified with your interpretation, thus your interpretation cannot be correct.

Now we can supplement the teaching in this verse with...




Romans 5:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


The primary point is that condemnation came upon all men, which laces all men in the same category, and that it is also by One that the free gift came upon those you deny it describes...all men. Since we cannot eradicate the all men, as seen in the initial response, the conclusion is that in view is not the giving of salvation, but the giving of the Gift, which is repeatedly stated as being motivated by God's love for the world and those that dwell there.

Again, if you interpret the "all men" to mean every human being you have another problem because Romans 5:16 states that those who receive the free gift, receive, "free gift is of many offences unto justification.", thus you would have every human being becoming justified, thus again your interpretation does not fit the context.

Also, you speak of God loving every human being, but how does that reconcile with "but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth" (Psalm 11:5) and "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5)?


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I think that whether God maintains a love for people after rejecting the revelation He has provided for them is a topic for another discussion. In view here is the general principle that God is said to love the world, and to send the Gospel to every man. He is not willing that any should perish, which is a statement that cannot achieve the moderation to "...except for those He never loved."...

You state, "He is not willing that any should perish", I believe you are quoting from 2 Peter 3:9, "9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Peter states his audience that the Lord is not slack concerning his promise is "toward us", therefore he must be referring not willing that "any" of the elect perish as he was talking "toward us" not "toward every human being". Also, if you take the "any" to mean every human being, it means his will is not that any should perish, but we know n the end some do perish, thus His will would not be done, but how would that be consistent with "of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"? How could he be working it after the counsel of his own will if he wills none should perish, but some do?

That He chastises His Children is also not in dispute. ."...

Does God love those he doesn't chastise?

So again we see the importance of the revelation provided man, and their condition in direct relation to their obedience. In Chapter Ten the Writer makes it clear those who reject Christ, the Comforter, and the New Covenant...will be punished with more severity than those who rejected the First Covenant (Moses' Law). The reason is that Christ is the ultimate Sacrifice and Covenant that all other Covenants pictured and pointed to.."...

Hebrews chapter 10 is not talking about someone who is unsaved rejecting Christ. The passage in context states, "26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"


Notice verse 27, the person who commits this act possesses a "certain fearful looking for of of judgment", thus this person cannot be one who has become unsaved seeing it is distinctly declared in the Scriptures of the unsaved, "The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes" (Psalm 36:1). Also, notice verse 30 of the chapter in Hebrews says, "30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people." Therefore the person in consideration in this passage is said to be one of "His people" not one who is not his child.


So what is the passage referring to if it is not talking about an unsaved person rejecting Christ? The verse right before Hebrews 10:26, tells us "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; ..." (Hebrews 10:25). This it is when a child of God church member willfully ceases the attendance of the assembly of believers (i.e. church). The very next verse says, " For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth..."As the forsaking the assembling of ourselves together is named in the immediate context, this particular sin as an example of sinning willfully. The Christian who absents himself from the assembling of the church, either does it willfully, if he absents himself by choice, having the ability and not the disposition, he sins willfully; and if he be a child of God, it is "after he has received a knowledge of the truth" as he is a member of the church.

He who has received a knowledge of the truth, knows his God too well to believe that his willful transgressions will go unchastised. He knows full well that God will judge his people, but it is in this life, not in Hell afterwards for the same book of Hebrews explicitly tells us, "7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:7-8)


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

God's Sovereignty remains intact and we see that it is the revelation of God through which men are enlightened as to their condition. They are not born with this ability but it manifests only when that revelation is bestowed upon them.

And in keeping with previous revelation it is given to all men.


Continued...

If the "revelation of God" or the gospel is the means God uses to make a child of God born again (I take it from what you have said in your posts you believe in what is called "Gospel regeneration", but if I am mistaken please let me know), wouldn't it be logical to conclude everyone would have an identical response to the gospel (either all will believe or all will not believe) because every human being has the same nature inherited from Adam, but why do some respond to the gospel differently, one believing and having faith and one not believing? Why did you for example choose to believe the gospel, but for arguments sake, perhaps your neighbor didn't?

It seems to me the law of cause and effect would come into play if your theory of gospel regeneration is true, in other words, if the cause of regeneration is the gospel being preached to mankind, and the effect is one placing faith in the gospel, thus becoming born again, we would observe the same cause and effect in every human being if they have identical natures prior to the new birth because identical causes applied to identical things will produce the same effect. The reason for some believing and some not believing is because regeneration precedes believing in the gospel, thus we see why some believe and some do not. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18). This verse clearly states the gospel is the "power of God" to those who ARE (PRESENT TENSE) saved, it does not say it is the "power of God" to those who "will be saved" as you would have to insert for gospel regeneration to be true.

Also, that the unsaved are incapable to repent and believe in the gospel is apparent as Paul declared, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14), but if you believe in gospel regeneration, then you believe the natural man can receive the things of God.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Rippon]

Nothing in the text by which one could be dogmatic about that.

On the contrary my stance is scriptural. I had said that with the exception of those eight souls --the rest of humanity received the judgment of God --hence they were indeed non-elect."

Luke 17:27-29

"People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot...But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven an d destroyed them all."

How much plainer can it be stated? Aside from those eight souls in the Great Flood, everyone else received the judgment of God. They were most certainly not among the elect --just like the residents of Sodom and the nearby vicinity.

Hebrews 11:7

"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith."

Hear and yield to the Word of God.

The natural man has inclination for only evil, not righteousness.

I fully agree, as does BrotherJoseph who had said:"Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil."

He is depraved in his natural state, remember?

I have had no memory-lapse regarding that. You clearly cannot understand plain language. If one has a nature that is totally evil --it means the same thing as "depraved in his natural state."

He cannot choose to be righteous, to seek after God, to reconcile himself to God...in his natural state. He is 100% dependent on the intervention of God, and it is God that enlightens him to his condition and the remedy for that condition.

I agree. There is no argument.

Do you see now how free will is actually imposed into his view without it being recognized?

No, I do not. There is no hint of libertarian free-will in his stance or mine.

Left to his own devices man will sin. That is not free will, that is bondage to sin, which only Christ can remedy.

Agreed. You are preaching to the choir here DC.

It is free will, just packaged up in different wrapping.

Of course not. According to one's nature is a concept that you can't comprehend. A lion, if given a choice between lettuce in one bowl and fresh meat in the other will always choose the latter. Lions are not vegetarians. It is their nature to go for the meat --every single time.

Likewise an unregenerate person will always be in bondage to sin --there is no libertarian free-will.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Sure:


Romans 10:10-17

King James Version (KJV)

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This reaches back into the Old Testament Eras. God has always made His will known to man, and has done in many various times and ways.

But has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son Jesus Christ, by Whom HE also made the worlds, or in other words, as the Old Testament teaches...

...there is no Savior besides Him.

Man will either try to save himself, in which case he will fail, or he will yield to the revealed will of God and come under obedience to the Gospel, the last word in Redemption..

Brother Darrell,

Your response above was for my request for you to give a passage that explicitly uses the word "offer" in reference to the gospel, but the passage you gave me in the above reply does not contain this word. This word is not used in connection with the gospel in the entire Bible, that is why you couldn't supply a passage that contains it.

Sure:

Romans 10:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved...

Brother Darrell,

Your response above was for my request for you to give a passage that explicitly uses the word "accept" in reference to accepting Jesus, but the passage you gave me in the above reply does not contain this word. Though this is a popular word used by modern day evangelicals, again like the word "offer" you will not find it in the entire Bible as it is a false doctrine.

And that negates quite a large number of texts which conflict with this teaching, which is summed up that Christ declared His victory over sin, death, and the grave, and somehow all of the Elect are automatically saved.]..

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (II Tim 3:1 - 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about "getting saved," but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are "invitations" and "decisions" and "methods" for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God's plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest. This phase of being saved is found in 2 Timothy 1: 9, "9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

The LEGAL PHASE is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. This phase of Jesus saving his people is seen in 1 Timothy 1:15, "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and again in Matthew 1:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins"

The VITAL PHASE is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ's death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives. This phase of being saved is seen in Titus 3:5 "5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry "Abba, Father." With new hearts from regeneration, we then hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. This being saved is by faith in believing the gospel, thus in our experience, we come to know that Jesus already legally saved us on Calvary through the atonement. This being saved is found in 1 Timothy 4:16, " 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" Also, please pay special attention to this verse, "...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10). Notice it says the gospel only brings "to light" life and immortality, thus these things were already there in a regenerated child of God, but the gospel sheds light to his children as to how life and immortality got there-through Christ's death and resurrection.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future. It is mentioned in Romans 13: 11, "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed"

Brother Joe