The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

[KenH]

Amen. And God always held Christ the Surety responsible for the sin debt of the elect, the precise time Adam brought about their deserved condemnation Rom 5:18 it was imputed to the Surety and so He had to pay the debt leaving them debt free, Justice can't be charged to them and Christ their Surety at the same time.

Correct. Yet there are lots of people calling themselves Christians, and I used to be among them when I was lost in false Christianity, who believe that Christ paid for the sins of every human being who will ever live and that the majority of human beings who will ever live will have to pay for those same sins all over again.

I am so very thankful that God delivered me from such awful thinking on my part.

 

[Dave...]

God will not accept anything less than perfection. Remember, the Israelites were commanded to bring an unblemished sacrifice in the old covenant.

Abraham did not have perfect faith, therefore, he did not have righteousness based on his imperfect faith.

The perfect righteousness is outside of God's elect, it is in Christ.

Abraham had faith in Christ and His perfect righteousness, and it was Christ to whom Abraham looked. Abraham did not have faith in his faith.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

I agree Ken, it's Christ's righteousness, the righteousness of God. The extent that Abraham knew could be questioned, but his faith was credited in promise to Him as righteousness before the cross ever happened. It was his faith that justified him, as Paul said, not election. If Abraham was credited righteous and justified before his faith because he was elect, I would like to see the Scripture for that, that's all.

Dave

 

[Brightfame52]

f Abraham was credited righteous and justified before his faith because he was elect,

Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[KenH]

It was his faith that justified him

Nope. Abraham did not have perfect faith.

God will not accept imperfection.

Abraham, as all of God's elect, was justified by Christ's perfect righteousness, not his imperfect faith.

 

[KenH]

Even God's elect after being regenerated are still living in unredeemed, fleshly, corrupt bodies. They will receive new bodies at the resurrection when Christ returns and destroys this present heavens and earth and brings about the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.

Thus, God's elect still deal with their imperfections in word, thought, and deed throughout their earthly existence. Spiritual regeneration does not negate that.

 

[Silverhair]

One could, to follow your line of questioning, ask how could Jesus die and pay the sin debt for sins that had not even been actually committed yet?

To answer the question that you asked:

"Justification involves God in eternity, before the foundation of the world, sovereignly and unconditionally choosing His people in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and literally giving them to Christ, entrusting their whole salvation to Him. This means that God conditioned the whole salvation of His chosen people on Christ and the work that Christ would come in time and accomplish for them by His obedience unto death. In other words, God the Father made Christ to be the Surety of His people. Christ is the Surety of the New Covenant (Hebrews 7:20-22), and the New Covenant is the actual fulfillment in time of all the conditions of the everlasting Covenant of Grace made before time. Christ has always been the Surety of the everlasting Covenant of Grace. A surety is one who is made responsible for the debt of others. This is when Christ obligated Himself to come in time and pay the redemption price with His blood (His death) for their sins on the cross. So, what God had purposed before the world began was always sure and certain to be accomplished in time because Christ was (and is) the Surety of the covenant (2 Corinthians 1:20). So, it can be said that God’s people were JUSTIFIED IN ETERNITY in the eternal mind of God as Christ has always been (and always will be) their Surety. This justification was always based upon what Christ would come in time and accomplish for them on the cross. Revelation 13:8 expresses this in a negative by speaking of those who in the end would reject Christ and worship the unholy beast (the agent of Satan) and describes them as those “whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” This clearly indicates that all for whom Christ was made Surety and for whom He would come in time and redeem them from their sins are those whose names were written in the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 21:27) before God laid the foundation of and created this world.

We must realize that if we believe what the Bible teaches, there has never been a time when God viewed His people outside of Christ and without the merits of His death on the cross to be accomplished in time. Even when God’s chosen people fell into sin and death by Adam, and even when they were (and are) born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins (by nature no different than the children of wrath), they were (and are) covered by God’s everlasting covenant of grace in Christ and based on His righteousness imputed to them. This is in line with the Biblical revelation that all who are saved by God’s grace were (and are) “the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory” (Romans 9:23), and objects of God’s “purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9)."

- excerpt from Bill Parker's book, https://n.b5z.net/i/u/10086795/f/When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf

Ken you asked "how could Jesus die and pay the sin debt for sins that had not even been actually committed yet?"

Even you should know the answer to that.

He is God. Are you saying that He was not the propitiation for the sins of the whole world? Was His sacrifice was sufficient to cover the sin debt of all, past and future but is only efficient for those that freely trust in Him.

 

[KenH]

Are you saying that He was not the propitiation for the sins of the whole world?

Christ is the propitiation for all kinds of people - Jews and Gentiles - all of God's elect that He chose before the foundation of the world.

And just as Christ paid the sin debt for all of God's elect - even those not yet born - all of God's elect were justified by the perfect righteousness of Christ(which He would finish in His human body during His earthly life) when God elected them.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Certainly justification by the perfect righteousness of Christ is a spiritual blessing in verse 3 above.

 

[Brightfame52]

but is only efficient for those that freely trust in Him.

Thats the only ones who Christ died for, those who believe in Him. And the Christ of scripture isnt the christ of arminanism who died for all mankind to merely make salvation possible, thats a false christ

The Christ of Arminianism - Steven Houck

(Freewillism)The Bible warns us that in the last days in which we live there will be many false Christs-those who claim to be Christ but who are imposters. Jesus said, "Take heed that no man deceive y

www.pristinegrace.org

 

[Van]

Confession is a work and is evidence one is saved, regenerated 1 Jn 4:15

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

LOL, are you really making such an unstudied illiterate claim? The idea is that when we evaluate ourselves, if we find that we engage in evangelism, confessing Christ (professing Christ), we have assurance we are "in Christ and Christ is in us." But remember Matthew 7, those that said "Lord, Lord" had engaged in ministry, yet were lawless and unsaved.

Mr. Obama supported the right to abortion and the right to same sex marriage, yet professed he was a "committed Christian." Your effort to claim if a person professes he or she is a Christian, that means Christ is in them and they are in Christ is ludicrous.

 

[Brightfame52]

LOL, are you really making such an unstudied illiterate claim?

How so ? Confessing Christ is an spiritual action. In 1 Jn 4:15 shall confess is aorist active. Active means:

Definition of "Active"
Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.

And he that performs that action its evidence that God dwells in them { the Spirit] and he in God

This isnt something the natural man does, sorry charlie.

Likewise in Rom 10:9 same word confess in active voice, performing an action

Spiritual actions are evidences of life

Now if you take them to be conditions, then you promote salvation by your works, your actions of performance.

 

[JonC]

Is now a good time to mention we are 130 posts in and no Calvinist has yet been able to provide a passage that :

1. Says God punished Jesus for our sins instead of us
2. That Jesus experienced God's wrath
3. That there are unsaved elect people

(Just to name 3 theories that must be true if Calvinism is true)

Think about it. If Calvin was wrong about one of those things (there are a few more) then Calvinism falls.

Many Calvinists are betting their lives on theories a select group of men think the Bible "really" teaches.

On the other hand, you have Christians who may disagree about interpretations, applications, and focus but are able to be united with other believers in being able to actually find their faith in God's Word.

We can actually open our Bibles and our doctrine will pass the test of being the very words of God.

Jesus will make us stand despite our errors (we all have faulty understandings).

Will Jesus make those stand who have absolutely abandoned God's Word for the teachings of me.?

Will they, who know their doctrine fails the "test" but hold it anyway really stand?

Will those who are carried away by these philosophies return to the faith?

Will professing Christians who dismiss God's words and lean on their understanding stand?

God knows. I don't.

But I am encouraged that there are Christians who value God's Word, who lean not on their own understanding but on every word that comes from God, that hold doctrines which pass the test, that can express what they believe not by offering the writings of men who hold their belief but by God's own Word.

 

[KenH]

How can a person be justified before there is atonement for sin? how can a person be imputed with the Righteousness of God before Jesus lived a perfectly sinless and righteous life as a man? How can a person enter the Kingdom of God when He is not born again?

In today's Through Baca's Vale devotional, J.C. Philpot touched on the subject of justification from eternity:

' Now, if you have seen his Person by the eye of faith, you have had faith flowing out of your soul to his atoning blood; for his atoning blood derives all its value, all its validity, and all its efficacy from its being the blood of that glorious Person. Upon that atoning blood we then view infinite dignity stamped. We then view it as the blood of Him who was God-man; and we then see the dignity, immensity, and glory of the Godhead of Jesus, stamped upon the sufferings and blood that flowed from his pure manhood. When we see that by the eye of faith, what a rich stream does it become! What a fountain opened for sin and uncleanness! What value is stamped upon it to purge and cleanse a guilty conscience!

Now, when this is known and felt, the soul is justified. Justification passes over from the mind of God into the bosom of the sinner. He never really was, in the mind of God, in an unjustified state; but he was in his own conscience, and he was as touching the law, and he was as regards his standing as a sinner before the eyes of a holy Jehovah. But the moment he is enabled, by living faith, to touch and take hold of the atoning blood of the Lamb of God, justification passes over into his soul, and he becomes freely justified, pardoned and accepted, through the blood of sprinkling upon his conscience; and he stands before God whiter and brighter than snow, for "the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin." '

 

[KenH]

Is now a good time to mention we are 130 posts in and no Calvinist has yet been able to provide a passage that :

1. Says God punished Jesus for our sins instead of us
2. That Jesus experienced God's wrath

Read all of Isaiah chapter 53.

3. That there are unsaved elect people

I don't understand the meaning of your question.

 

[JonC]

Read all of Isaiah chapter 53.



I don't understand the meaning of your question.

I have read, and believe, all of Isaiah 53. When I was a Calvinist I did read Calvinism into that chapter and I also liked giving it as a vague answer to non-Calvinists (of course I, like you, hoped nobody would actually read the entire thing).

But you know what Isaiah 53 does not state? It does not state that God punished Jesus instead of us or that Jesus suffered God's wrath. You read that into the chapter. To prove it just grab your Bible and a highlighter.

What you believe is not God's Word but what you believe that chapter teaches. That is why we disagree. I believe God's Word IS what the Bible teaches and that the Spirit, rather than teaching us what the Bible "really" means illuminates what is actually there.


3. That there are unsaved elect people.

This is not actually a question. I was noting that Calvinists act as if the elect are a group of people chosen by God regardless of their state "in Christ", and regardless of belief. They act as if a lost person could be numbered among the elect.

But reading 2 Corinthians and 2 Peter we know that is fakse (Peter and Paul equate being "elect" as being spiritually alive, Christ in us, abd believing in Him.

We know that the elect were once "dead in their sins", but they are not "elect" when dead in their sins. They are chosen in Chris (not "to be in Christ").

So I was asking for an actual passages stating what they believe.

All of the requests are rhetorical. I think we all know by now that Calvinism is not actually in the Word of God but instead is what a minority sect within "Christianity" believe the Bible teaches.