The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

[JonC]

Some Words From the Mod

They are not: a difference of opinion. a difference of interpretation of facts. For example, I am a Republican in more or less the mold of Theodore Roosevelt. My father (who grew up on a farm during the Depression) is a New Deal Democrat. We have differences of opinion and...

www.baptistboard.com

I'd say @Silverhair can be accurately described as a slanderer according to @Squire Robertsson

There are many....recently a few Calvinists called non-Calvinists unsaved. I can't speak for the other Staff but I let it go because it speaks of the one making the claim.

A year ago I deleted a lot of inappropriate posts. But now I typically address such posts if they show up in reports.

I, for one, have no issue with somebody questioning my faith. People should. That makes us test and defend our faith to make sure it stands up to questioning.

That said, report it (if directed to you) and it will be addressed.

 

[Silverhair]

Some Words From the Mod

They are not: a difference of opinion. a difference of interpretation of facts. For example, I am a Republican in more or less the mold of Theodore Roosevelt. My father (who grew up on a farm during the Depression) is a New Deal Democrat. We have differences of opinion and...

www.baptistboard.com

I'd say @Silverhair can be accurately described as a slanderer according to @Squire Robertsson

@5 point Gillinist you have made the accusation that I "can be accurately described as a slanderer" so it is now upon you to show whom I have slandered and how I have done so.

slander /slăn′dər/

noun​

1. Oral communication of false and malicious statements that damage the reputation of another.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
3. A false tale or report maliciously uttered, tending to injure the reputation of another; the malicious utterance of defamatory reports; the dissemination of malicious tales or suggestions to the injury of another.

 

[Van]

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

According to Calvinism, a person is justified and saved before they believe and confess with their mouth. They only need to evidence that with faith at some point and time.

Another corollary to the above truth, is foreseen individuals before they are created, do not have a soul, or heart, or core beliefs. And foreseen individuals have no need to be justified, as they have not been made sinners. Calvinism must rewrite verse after verse to alter the gospel of Christ such that it become the gospel of Calvinism.

For with their foreseen heart, the foreseen one's belief does not matter, and is foreseen to be justified, and with their foreseen mouth, the foreseen one confesses, and is actually saved in their foreseen state. Sure glad Calvinists hate those who twist scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Confession is a work and is evidence one is saved, regenerated 1 Jn 4:15

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

[Dave...]

2b. Secondly, Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

I agree

How can a person be justified before there is atonement for sin? how can a person be imputed with the Righteousness of God before Jesus lived a perfectly sinless and righteous life as a man? How can a person enter the Kingdom of God when He is not born again? There can be promises, but....

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

God would not have needed to pass over the sins previously committed if they were already atoned for (Romans 3:25-26).

"whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, *to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

God withheld punishment for sins so that through Christs sacrifice, God showed His righteousness by pouring out His wrath on His Son. This sacrifice allowed God to be just, and because God punished sin, He can now declare righteous those who have faith in Jesus Christ. An OT believers faith was counted as righteousness, but it still had to wait for the the cross before they were actually justified.

 

[Silverhair]

How can a person be justified before there is atonement for sin? how can a person be imputed with the Righteousness of God before Jesus lived a perfectly sinless and righteous life as a man? How can a person enter the Kingdom of God when He is not born again? There can be promises, but....

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

God would not have needed to pass over the sins previously committed if they were already atoned for (Romans 3:25-26).

"whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, *to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

God withheld punishment for sins so that through Christs sacrifice, God showed His righteousness by pouring out His wrath on His Son. This sacrifice allowed God to be just, and because God punished sin, He can now declare righteous those who have faith in Jesus Christ. An OT believers faith was counted as righteousness, but it still had to wait for the the cross before they were actually justified.

Those that hold to anti-biblical views will try to justify the man-made religion they hold all the while ignoring the clear word of God. They forget that the word of God is the standard not calvinism.

 

[KenH]

How can a person be justified before there is atonement for sin? how can a person be imputed with the Righteousness of God before Jesus lived a perfectly sinless and righteous life as a man? How can a person enter the Kingdom of God when He is not born again? There can be promises, but....

One could, to follow your line of questioning, ask how could Jesus die and pay the sin debt for sins that had not even been actually committed yet?

To answer the question that you asked:

"Justification involves God in eternity, before the foundation of the world, sovereignly and unconditionally choosing His people in His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and literally giving them to Christ, entrusting their whole salvation to Him. This means that God conditioned the whole salvation of His chosen people on Christ and the work that Christ would come in time and accomplish for them by His obedience unto death. In other words, God the Father made Christ to be the Surety of His people. Christ is the Surety of the New Covenant (Hebrews 7:20-22), and the New Covenant is the actual fulfillment in time of all the conditions of the everlasting Covenant of Grace made before time. Christ has always been the Surety of the everlasting Covenant of Grace. A surety is one who is made responsible for the debt of others. This is when Christ obligated Himself to come in time and pay the redemption price with His blood (His death) for their sins on the cross. So, what God had purposed before the world began was always sure and certain to be accomplished in time because Christ was (and is) the Surety of the covenant (2 Corinthians 1:20). So, it can be said that God’s people were JUSTIFIED IN ETERNITY in the eternal mind of God as Christ has always been (and always will be) their Surety. This justification was always based upon what Christ would come in time and accomplish for them on the cross. Revelation 13:8 expresses this in a negative by speaking of those who in the end would reject Christ and worship the unholy beast (the agent of Satan) and describes them as those “whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” This clearly indicates that all for whom Christ was made Surety and for whom He would come in time and redeem them from their sins are those whose names were written in the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 21:27) before God laid the foundation of and created this world.

We must realize that if we believe what the Bible teaches, there has never been a time when God viewed His people outside of Christ and without the merits of His death on the cross to be accomplished in time. Even when God’s chosen people fell into sin and death by Adam, and even when they were (and are) born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins (by nature no different than the children of wrath), they were (and are) covered by God’s everlasting covenant of grace in Christ and based on His righteousness imputed to them. This is in line with the Biblical revelation that all who are saved by God’s grace were (and are) “the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory” (Romans 9:23), and objects of God’s “purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9)."

- excerpt from Bill Parker's book, https://n.b5z.net/i/u/10086795/f/When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf

 

[Brightfame52]

How can a person be justified before there is atonement for sin?

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[JonC]

One could, to follow your line of questioning, ask how could Jesus die and pay the sin debt

Better yet - one could ask for a passage stating that there is a "sin debt".

Obviously there is not. The wages of sin is death. Sin produces death.


Christ canceled the certificate of debt (the Mosaic Law) by nailing it on a tree.

Those things are biblical. But not this "sin debt".

 

[Dave...]

Yes, it does.
That's why I agree with "TULIP";

But you're using the system to define the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say that the fear of God is respecting God? Show me that in any Biblical context where that interpretation comes from. You pulled that out of thin air because your system needs it.

Because in the details and upon every word of God, I see it as being completely Scriptural.

Details? Dave, you completely ignore context and define every passage that you use on an island. No matter how many times I show you that the context does not allow your interpretation, you simply quote your verse again and appeal to the system.

Dave, there's no such thing as "saving faith".
God does not save a person, eternally, because of their trust in Him;
He saves them because He chooses to, and gives them the faith to carry them through this life and into the next.
This is how He saves:

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalm 65:4 ).

The Lord declares that all those that He has chosen and caused to approach Him, by the new birth and by revealing to them the truth of His word, are His beloved... and they will inherit the earth.

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Dave, you contradicted yourself. You quoted "not of works, lest any man should boast"(Ephesians 2:9). Emphasizing the previous passage that it was contrasting, vs. 8 . What is works, and self contrasted to? A saving faith? Nope! It's contrasted to grace, the gift from God that we receive as a result of our faith. By faith we enter into that grace, or that gift from God (Romans 5:1).

You never answered my question.

John 3:18He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Are the elect, as you understand them, who do not yet believe, condemned already?

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ is the Surety of the New Covenant (Hebrews 7:20-22), and the New Covenant is the actual fulfillment in time of all the conditions of the everlasting Covenant of Grace made before time. Christ has always been the Surety of the everlasting Covenant of Grace. A surety is one who is made responsible for the debt of others. This is when Christ obligated Himself to come in time and pay the redemption price with His blood (His death) for their sins on the cross. So, what God had purposed before the world began was always sure and certain to be accomplished in time because Christ was (and is) the Surety of the covenant (2 Corinthians 1:20)

Amen. And God always held Christ the Surety responsible for the sin debt of the elect, the precise time Adam brought about their deserved condemnation Rom 5:18 it was imputed to the Surety and so He had to pay the debt leaving them debt free, Justice can't be charged to them and Christ their Surety at the same time.

 

[KenH]

Amen. And God always held Christ the Surety responsible for the sin debt of the elect, the precise time Adam brought about their deserved condemnation Rom 5:18 it was imputed to the Surety and so He had to pay the debt leaving them debt free, Justice can't be charged to them and Christ their Surety at the same time.

In our puny little minds, we tend to forget that, while we are time bound creatures on this earth, God is eternal and not time bound. God knows, and has always known, everything in all of eternity.

 

[Brightfame52]

Better yet - one could ask for a passage stating that there is a "sin debt".

What does this mean? Matt 6:12

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

What are these debts ? Credit cards

 

[Dave...]

Which again, brings us back around to faith, which Scripture says is evidential ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not influential...unless one is speaking with respect to those that He has already saved and have been found to be in His favor.

Then their faith "saves" them, from all of the evil around them and from all the fears that would consume them.

For the record, Abraham's faith is not what the Lord looked upon in order to grant him both repentance and eternal life...
God's gracious choice of Abraham ( and Lot ) out of who knows how many of his generation, is the only thing that Abraham stands upon.

The biggest part of why He chose to reveal Himself to Abraham, was because He sought a people for His names' sake...
A physical people to manifest Himself to, and a spiritual people to do the same to.
Even now He is gathering to Himself a remnant ( and it's a big one by our standards, Revelation 7:9 ) out of each and every generation who will praise him for the glory of His grace;

Not giving them what they deserve, but what they do not deserve.

I wish you could see it, Dave, I really do...
The truth is, we have no control over who He saves and who He does not.
If you, me or anyone else has believed on His Son from the heart, it's because of what the Lord has done for us;
Not what we have done for Him.


As always, I wish you well, and I will make this my last reply in your thread.
May God bless you.

Dave, with all do respect, this is not Biblical. The emboldened part, can you back that up with Scripture?

Here's mine.

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Paul in Romans 4 expounds on this. It would have been a great place to say it was not of works, or faith, but God chose him. Paul emphasizes that it was Abrahams faith, not Gods sovereign predestination that justified Him.

Your turn.

 

[KenH]

etter yet - one could ask for a passage stating that there is a "sin debt".

Obviously there is not.

Yes, there is. Matthew 6:12 "And forgive us our debts."

Jesus called it a debt.

 

[JonC]

But you're using the system to define the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say that the fear of God is respecting God? Show me that in any Biblical context where that interpretation comes from. You pulled that out of thin air because your system needs it.



Details? Dave, you completely ignore context and define every passage that you use on an island. No matter how many times I show you that the context does not allow your interpretation, you simply quote your verse again and appeal to the system.



Dave, you contradicted yourself. You quoted "not of works, lest any man should boast"(Ephesians 2:9). Emphasizing the previous passage that it was contrasting, vs. 8 . What is works, and self contrasted to? A saving faith? Nope! It's contrasted to grace, the gift from God that we receive as a result of our faith. By faith we enter into that grace, or that gift from God (Romans 5:1).

You never answered my question.

John 3:18He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Are the elect, as you understand them, who do not yet believe, condemned already?

@Dave...

I think it is very easy to examine whether "resoect" works instead of "fear". Just change the word (not in your Bibke because you will want to change it back).

If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth

If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves with respect during the time of your stay on earth

It just does not work, does it.


φόβῳ is the word we get "phobia" from.

It is fear, but one that includes reverence. We conduct ourselves in fear knowing that our Father will judge our deeds (a caution to watch how we conduct ourselves).

 

[Dave...]

@5 point Gillinist you have made the accusation that I "can be accurately described as a slanderer" so it is now upon you to show whom I have slandered and how I have done so.

slander /slăn′dər/

noun​

1. Oral communication of false and malicious statements that damage the reputation of another.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
3. A false tale or report maliciously uttered, tending to injure the reputation of another; the malicious utterance of defamatory reports; the dissemination of malicious tales or suggestions to the injury of another.

For the record, I didn't see anything like that, slander. Silverhair just said to that poster that if he doesn't agree with him, why would posting a quote by someone else saying the same thing change his opinion.

I never seen silverhair slander anyone. He's usually very even tempered. I actually admired him for his patience.

Dave

 

[KenH]

Here's mine.

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

God will not accept anything less than perfection. Remember, the Israelites were commanded to bring an unblemished sacrifice in the old covenant.

Abraham did not have perfect faith, therefore, he did not have righteousness based on his imperfect faith.

The perfect righteousness is outside of God's elect, it is in Christ.

Abraham had faith in Christ and His perfect righteousness, and it was Christ to whom Abraham looked. Abraham did not have faith in his faith.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

 

[Dave...]

Confession is a work and is evidence one is saved, regenerated 1 Jn 4:15

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Sorry, but KJV onlyist are the worst theologians. Is that slander if it's true?

1 John 4:13-16 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. *And we have known and believed the love that God has for us*. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

".....and, and. and, and we have known and believed the love that God has for us"

The whole book, or letter is about the evidences of a true believer.

1 John 5:1 revisited.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. This passage is often quoted as proof that one must be born again to believe. I think this mistranslation was pointed out very eloquently by Dr. Sam...

www.baptistboard.com

 

[KenH]

Here's mine.

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

and it was counted to him for righteousness, the meaning of which is not, that Abraham imputed righteousness to God, or celebrated his righteousness and faithfulness, as some; or that the world reckoned Abraham a righteous person, as others; but that God reckoned him righteous, or imputed it to him for righteousness: and the question is, what the it is which was counted to him for righteousness?...The only one is, whether it means the grace of faith by which he believed; or the object of faith on which he believed, and with which his faith was conversant: not the former, for that is not righteousness, nor accounted so; but is distinguished from it, and is that by which a person receives and lays hold on righteousness; besides, whatever may be alleged in favour of the imputation of Abraham's faith to himself for righteousness, it can never be thought to be imputed to others on that account; whereas the very selfsame it is imputed to others also; see Rom 4:24; it remains then that it was the promised seed, the Messiah, and his righteousness, which Abraham, by faith, looked unto, and believed in, that was made unto him righteousness by imputation. Now since so great and good a man as Abraham was not justified by works, but by faith in the righteousness of the Messiah, it follows, that none of his sons, nor any other person whatever, ought to seek for, or expect to be justified in any other way.

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Romans 4:3