• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

KenH

Well-Known Member
So if TULIP says nothing about infants then how do you deal with this Ken.

That was in discussion with Jon about infant baptism, which is a good example as to why it is incorrect to call me a Calvinist or Reformed, as I do not agree with the practice of infant baptism.

So if everyone is condemned at birth, per your churches articles of faith, and one has to trust in Christ to be saved then what happens to babies that die?

"It may not be improper to observe here, that It is asserted, that “elect infants dying in infancy, are justified by faith in the habit, though not by faith in the act.” If this is true, it follows, that God doth not justify all his elect in one and the same way, but some by the habit, and others by the act of faith: For the proof of which, I am of opinion that no solid argument can be offered. Again, a principle or habit cannot see, or receive an object: Now if Christ’s righteousness is to or upon us, in a way of believing, and it cannot be ours till actually received by faith, both which are affrmed by our author; how come elect infants, who die in infancy, to be actually interested in that righteousness, seeing they cannot act faith, and consequently are uncapable of receiving Christ’s righteousness? Therefore it must necessarily be concluded, that the gift of Christ’s righteousness becomes actually theirs, without any receiving act in them: And unless it can be proved that God justifies his elect in a different manner, that is to say, some by the habit, and others by the act of faith; the same must be granted concerning those of the elect, who live to riper years. Farther, from hence I cannot but conclude, that no act of faith is necessary to the being of Justification; for, if so, those of the elect who die in infancy, cannot be justified. But why an act of faith should be required to the actual Justification of some of the elect, and not to the Justification of others, I am not able to conceive.

The grace of faith, by which we apprehend our Justification is of the operation of God, it is an effect of powerful and efficacious grace, and not the produce of human power, skill, or industry. It Is not got, but given, as is evident from those words of the Apostle: “By grace are ye saved, through faith, that not of your selves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:9.).” And the grace of God is abundantly displayed, in working faith in our souls; over which, as I take it, a veil is drawn by our author in this exhortation of his, “With all your gettings, get faith.” Dead sinners, or such as are void of spiritual life, cannot act spiritually, and therefore it is not in their power to get faith; and as they have no ability to believe, they have no inclination to it, for their hearts are full of enmity against God. Besides, if faith is got or acquired by men, they make themselves to differ, and have whereof to boast, for then they have something which they did not receive as a gift of free grace; which is constantly denied in scripture, and will never be owned by the saints. Again: It may as well be required of sinners to form divine and supernatural principles in their souls, or to create spiritual life in themselves, as to get faith, for the meaning is the same, which is a work proper to God. Moreover, such an exhortation is not likely to debase and humble proud sinners, or to convince them that they are impotent to good; but rather to swell their haughtiness and pride, and occasion them to imagine they are possessed of a power which they are not: Thereby also, it is not improbable, but many saints, who are sensible of their weakness, and of the strength of unbelief, may be dejected in their souls, because they cannot, many times when they desire it, exercise that faith which is wrought in their hearts by the Spirit of God."

- excerpt from John Brine's A Defence of the Doctrine of Eternal Justification, From Some Exceptions Made to It By Mr. Bragge, and Others

Now, the number of the elect who die in infancy I obviously cannot answer.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
That was in discussion with Jon about infant baptism, which is a good example as to why it is incorrect to call me a Calvinist or Reformed, as I do not agree with the practice of infant baptism.



"It may not be improper to observe here, that It is asserted, that “elect infants dying in infancy, are justified by faith in the habit, though not by faith in the act.” If this is true, it follows, that God doth not justify all his elect in one and the same way, but some by the habit, and others by the act of faith: For the proof of which, I am of opinion that no solid argument can be offered. Again, a principle or habit cannot see, or receive an object: Now if Christ’s righteousness is to or upon us, in a way of believing, and it cannot be ours till actually received by faith, both which are affrmed by our author; how come elect infants, who die in infancy, to be actually interested in that righteousness, seeing they cannot act faith, and consequently are uncapable of receiving Christ’s righteousness? Therefore it must necessarily be concluded, that the gift of Christ’s righteousness becomes actually theirs, without any receiving act in them: And unless it can be proved that God justifies his elect in a different manner, that is to say, some by the habit, and others by the act of faith; the same must be granted concerning those of the elect, who live to riper years. Farther, from hence I cannot but conclude, that no act of faith is necessary to the being of Justification; for, if so, those of the elect who die in infancy, cannot be justified. But why an act of faith should be required to the actual Justification of some of the elect, and not to the Justification of others, I am not able to conceive.

The grace of faith, by which we apprehend our Justification is of the operation of God, it is an effect of powerful and efficacious grace, and not the produce of human power, skill, or industry. It Is not got, but given, as is evident from those words of the Apostle: “By grace are ye saved, through faith, that not of your selves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:9.).” And the grace of God is abundantly displayed, in working faith in our souls; over which, as I take it, a veil is drawn by our author in this exhortation of his, “With all your gettings, get faith.” Dead sinners, or such as are void of spiritual life, cannot act spiritually, and therefore it is not in their power to get faith; and as they have no ability to believe, they have no inclination to it, for their hearts are full of enmity against God. Besides, if faith is got or acquired by men, they make themselves to differ, and have whereof to boast, for then they have something which they did not receive as a gift of free grace; which is constantly denied in scripture, and will never be owned by the saints. Again: It may as well be required of sinners to form divine and supernatural principles in their souls, or to create spiritual life in themselves, as to get faith, for the meaning is the same, which is a work proper to God. Moreover, such an exhortation is not likely to debase and humble proud sinners, or to convince them that they are impotent to good; but rather to swell their haughtiness and pride, and occasion them to imagine they are possessed of a power which they are not: Thereby also, it is not improbable, but many saints, who are sensible of their weakness, and of the strength of unbelief, may be dejected in their souls, because they cannot, many times when they desire it, exercise that faith which is wrought in their hearts by the Spirit of God."

- excerpt from John Brine's A Defence of the Doctrine of Eternal Justification, From Some Exceptions Made to It By Mr. Bragge, and Others

Now, the number of the elect who die in infancy I obviously cannot answer.

I notice that John Brine keeps referring to "elect infants" but since one is only elect when they are in Christ Jesus that seems to be a rather odd comment. But this still does not answer the problem of all have sinned in Adam. If this is a correct understanding of Gen 3:17-19 then the infants that die are condemned to hell as they are sinners. But having Adam's sin passed on to future generations was not one of the consequences that God spoke of. So that view that all have sinned in Adam is just a man-made view not something that God has said. We are judged for our sins not the sins of others.

I have looked for the biblical text that shows salvific faith given to a person. He seems to think there is one but did not provide it. I did see that he has misunderstood Eph 2:8-9. It is salvation that is the gift not faith and this salvation is through faith.

You do realize that infant baptism is not why we would call you a calvinist/reformed. It is because you hold to basic views of calvinism which your posting of John Brine's comments just reinforces.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"elect infants"

Galatians Chapter 1

15​

But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,

Luke Chapter 1

15​

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb.

Romans Chapter 9

11​

for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
The confessions are totally based on scripture. If you look you will be surprised at how much scripture is there.

I have looked. The misuse of scripture to support your views does not make your views correct.

Calvinism starts from a flawed position so you can only expect a flawed result.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Galatians Chapter 1

15​

But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,

Luke Chapter 1

15​

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother`s womb.

Romans Chapter 9

11​

for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

Were those babies sinners KY? Being called to service is not being called to salvation.

One is only elect when they are in the "Elect One" Christ Jesus.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I disagree. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.

Hebrews Chapter 13

8​

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.

1st Peter Chapter 1

11​

searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.
1 Cor 15:45. "The last Adam became a life-giving spirit"

The passage I quoted is not contradicting the two you bring up.

Jesus did die on a cross. Was that a change? Yes. He grew up that was a change.

But Jesus Himself, Jesus who was at one time "not flesh" snd became flesh, became a life giving Spirit. This did not change His nature or actual being.


Anyway, there is nothing to disagree over. I was quoting 1 Cor 15:45.

We know without a doubt that Jesus became a life giving Spirit because that is what the Bible states
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Anyway, there is nothing to disagree over. I was quoting 1 Cor 15:45.

We know without a doubt that Jesus became a life giving Spirit because that is what the Bible states

It should be understood that this was not a 'new' form of being, but a return to His eternal state.

John Chapter 17

5​

And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It should be understood that this was not a 'new' form of being, but a return to His eternal state.

John Chapter 17

5​

And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
In one way, but not in another. He really did become man. And He is really the Firstborn of many brethren. He is what the Bible referred to as a second type of man (you had the first Adam and Jesus the last Adam).

Why have trouble with Scripture stating "He became a life giving spirit" and have no trouble with "the Word became flesh", or "glorify me with the glory which I had"?

Obviously Jesus changed. The Word was made flesh, He grew in wisdom snd stature, He died, and "He became a life giving Spirit".

This does not change who Jesus is. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

BUT that passage does not nullify the passage "He became a life giving Spirit".

Both of the passages are true. They do not contradict one another.
 

Dave...

Active Member
We are discussing a topic on another forum....well, the topic changed to what we are discussing.

What I have learned of Calvinists is that they start with a theory and then ho to the Bibke to extract passages to "support" their theory. In doing so, they rewrite the passages they lift. I mean, not anything close to interpretation or exegesis but unadulterated eisegesis.

The example on the other thread is about election. Their reasoning goes like this - Scripture states that we were once dead in our trespasses which really means that many of those who are dead in their trespasses ate elect...Scrioture says we are elect in Christ which realky means elected to believe in Christ. They ignore passages to the contrary (like 2 Cor 13 and 2 Peter 1 equating the ekect with those who believe and are spiritually alive).

I know many Calvinists who are also Christians. I once was one. But I do wonder if many others have been carried away from Christianity by their philosophy. Maybe this depends on how the philosophy is held (the warning not to be carried away by vain philosophy a warning of philosophy we all may hold to a degree based on the limits of human understanding).


@Charlie24 , the main reason I continue rather than shaking off the dust is that there may be many who stumble on these threads who are not yet carried away. I am absolutely certain that I have encountered many Cslvinists who are not saved, even some with fairly decent doctrine. And I have encountered people with horrible theology who's faith should be an example for us all.
Hey Jon

The bottom line is that systems, like TULIP, seek to make sense out of a vast amounts of information. A system is good in theory, but can be unknowingly abused by the flesh. We should hold to Scripture no matter how we 'feel' about it, like the Calvinist does. But that must be tempered with allowing questions to remain, as sometimes Scripture doesn't give us the answers right away, or ever. I'm still working on many of these doctrines, but I'm trying not to pin myself to a system. If our understanding grows, then the system must bow down to it and change, not Scripture. There must be room for the system to change, otherwise it is Scripture that is being defined by the system.

I always try to remember that many of the truths that I have come to know were once very difficult to understand, but now very easy. That's the Holy Spirits job, and systems can never be a shortcut for that. I remember nights when it would take me hours to retrace mt steps in thought to get back to where I left off the night before. Those things sound so simple to me today, but back then.... I think sometimes God just wants the effort.
 

Dave...

Active Member
" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. " ( John 5:24 ). <--- Already has everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation, and already are born again.

" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. : ( John 3:18 ) <--- Those that do believe show that they are not condemned, while those that do not believe show that they are already condemned.

That is how I understand the above, Dave.
Hey Dave

I'm guessing that what you're doing with John 5:24 is what is commonly done with 1 John 5:1?


Let me know if that's not what you meant. It's just a statement of fact. He's not saying that they already had eternal life before they believed.

NKJV "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Just out of curiosity, in John 3:18 that you quoted, what of those future believers, the elect that have not yet come to believe, are they condemned already also?
 

Dave...

Active Member
" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."
( Hebrews 11:1-4 ).

Faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

By that same evidence, the elders obtained a good report.
Through evidential faith, believers understand creation and all that God's word tells us.
By that same evidential faith, Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain did.

That's what I see when I read the passage above.

Hey Dave. The faith that I was speaking of did not exist. That was the point.

I said: "According to Calvinism, the one without faith is at peace with God, already saved and very pleasing to God. This person simply needs to evidence that with faith at some point in time."

It's not rocket surgery. :) Your belief of 'be saved and believe' is backwards from the Gospel message.
 
Top