The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

[KenH]

So while you say you do not hold to the TULIP doctrines

1) I did not say I do not think that the Bible teaches the Doctrines of Grace; it does teach them.

2) My point is that I am not a follower of Calvin; I have never read his writings. I don't know - he may have written lots of stuff I don't agree with.

3) The term, "Sovereign Grace" or "Sovereign Grace Baptist" is apparently used by lots of churches, and I have no idea what kinds of different doctrines they all might teach. Thus, I don't think you can just randomly pick one to represent every church that might have those terms on their signs outside of their buildings.

 

[KenH]

your churches

I don't have a church. The church belongs to Christ Jesus. It's His.

 

[KenH]

I like my odds.

See, Jon, I know that I am saved; my salvation is 100% dependent on Christ Jesus and His finished work on my behalf.

Apparently, Jon, you regard your salvation as being based on "odds", like you are betting on a horse in the Kentucky Derby to win.

 

[Silverhair]

1) I did not say I do not think that the Bible teaches the Doctrines of Grace; it does teach them.

2) My point is that I am not a follower of Calvin; I have never read his writings. I don't know - he may have written lots of stuff I don't agree with.

3) The term, "Sovereign Grace" or "Sovereign Grace Baptist" is apparently used by lots of churches, and I have no idea what kinds of different doctrines they all might teach. Thus, I don't think you can just randomly pick one to represent every church that might have those terms on their signs outside of their buildings.

The DoG/TULIP is not taught in scripture Ken.

You may not have read any of calvin but you still hold to what he and following calvinists taught.

As for the quotes in my post, those all came form the articles of faith of your church which I am sure you agree with. So it would seem that you do in fact agree with the teaching of calvin and those following him.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't have a church. The church belongs to Christ Jesus. It's His.

So now you want to play word games Ken. The church you attend Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana. Is that better.

 

[JonC]

1) I did not say I do not think that the Bible teaches the Doctrines of Grace; it does teach them.

2) My point is that I am not a follower of Calvin; I have never read his writings. I don't know - he may have written lots of stuff I don't agree with.

3) The term, "Sovereign Grace" or "Sovereign Grace Baptist" is apparently used by lots of churches, and I have no idea what kinds of different doctrines they all might teach. Thus, I don't think you can just randomly pick one to represent every church that might have those terms on their signs outside of their buildings.

So the Bible teaches that infants of saved parents are elect because of God's covenant with the parents.

This is what I mean by no Baptist really believes the Doctrines of Grace. They merely acceot the summary without the substance. (Under "election" in the actual Doctrines of Grace, sec 17 speaks of infants being ekect based on their parents faith and advocates infant baptism).

Maybe Calvinistic Baptists should pick an unused title...like the "The Doctrines of Bapterterians".

They could go with "Doctrines of Grace Lite", but that doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[KenH]

So the Bible teaches that infants of saved parents are elect because of God's covenant with the parents.

The acronym, TULIP, says nothing about infants. Now if you are, perhaps, referring to something John Calvin wrote, or what some church that calls itself Calvinistic teaches, then that is an excellent example of why I am correct in not calling myself a Calvinist, as I do not believe what you wrote about infants.

 

[KenH]

Maybe Calvinistic Baptists should pick an unused title...like the "The Doctrines of Bapterterians".

I don't know about others, but at Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, we call ourselves Christians.

 

[KenH]

To me, Jon, the Doctrines of Grace are summarized by TULIP. I am not familiar with the other stuff you are tossing into the discussion, and really am not interested in it, as I do not agree with the practice of infant baptism.

 

[Dave...]

Thanks for your response!

lol

That bad huh?

 

[JonC]

The acronym, TULIP, says nothing about infants. Now if you are, perhaps, referring to something John Calvin wrote, or what some church that calls itself Calvinistic teaches, then that is an excellent example of why I am correct in not calling myself a Calvinist, as I do not believe what you wrote about infants.

You do not know your faith.

The Doctrines of Grace do refer to the acronym TULIP. I agree there (you identified TULIP....congratulations).

Cleland Boyd McAfee cane up with the acronym TULIP as a tool for children to remember the five "points" of Calvinism as solidified at the Synod of Dort. The "U"represents the first "head" of the doctrine which is Divine Election and Reprobation. Children remember it as "unconditional election).

Here is Article 17, under the "U":

"Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."

 

[JonC]

I don't know about others, but at Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, we call ourselves Christians.

Oh...I do not care what you call yourselves. I was talking about the Doctrines of Grace, not any congregation.

But I am aware that many churches also reject the text of Scripture in favor of what men tell them the Bibke teaches.

Is that Jesse Duplantis' church?

 

[JonC]

To me, Jon, the Doctrines of Grace are summarized by TULIP. I am not familiar with the other stuff you are tossing into the discussion, and really am not interested in it, as I do not agree with the practice of infant baptism.

I was talking about the actual Doctrines of Grace which represent TULIP.

So I was talking about TULIP, which is an acronym coined by McAfee(a Presbyterian minister) to help children remember the five points of Calvinism as solidified at the Synod of Dort.

Under the "U" there is Article 17:

"Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."

That IS a part of TULIP. It IS a part of the Doctrines of Grace.

Either you believe the Doctrines of Grace (TULIP) or you don't. We do not get to change the meanings to suit our beliefs (although, given your treatment of God's Word, I get why you try)

 

[Dave...]

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:48 ). <---- Only those that were ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life, believed.

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 ). <---- Justification, being conformed to the image of His Son, "calling" and so forth, performed by God for only the foreknown.

Again, that is how I read them, Dave, though we may disagree.
If that is what makes me a "Calvinist" ( though I was never exposed to any of this before roughly 2003, and that was after spending 25+ years in Independent Baptist Churches that had never even read any of this from the pulpit ), then I suppose that's a label I'll have to live with.

However, I didn't come to this through the traditional route ( by attending a "Sovereign Grace" or "Reformed" church )...
I simply picked up my Bible and started reading it for myself one day, exactly as my former pastors told me to do.

Acts 13:48... You're missing the historical significance of that passage and the people who are called the Gentiles. That's why you're confused. Those Gentiles are OT believers. They needed to hear the Gospel and believe, because they were already given to Jesus by the Father and appointed to eternal life.

What do YOU do with OT believers? You be the first Calvinist to explain what happened to them. If you are honest, you MUST account for them. Look at the context, It tells who they were.

There were Gentiles who were God fearers present in the synagogues and Temples.

Acts 10:1-2 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

These God Fearing Gentiles were present in Acts 13.

Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

26 Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent.

Paul preaches the Gospel. The OT Jewish false believers leave, the OT God fearing Gentiles stay to hear more. the next Sabbath....

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Sorry buddy, but context is the beauty that killed the beast called Calvinism.

 

[kyredneck]

He becomes a life giving Spirit.

I disagree. Scripture cannot contradict scripture.

Hebrews Chapter 13

8​	Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.

1st Peter Chapter 1

11​	searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

 

[KenH]

Is that Jesse Duplantis' church?

Isn't Duplantis in New Orleans?

Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, is one of Christ's churches - Grace Baptist Church | SermonAudio.

 

[KenH]

You do not know your faith.

The Doctrines of Grace do refer to the acronym TULIP. I agree there (you identified TULIP....congratulations).

Cleland Boyd McAfee cane up with the acronym TULIP as a tool for children to remember the five "points" of Calvinism as solidified at the Synod of Dort. The "U"represents the first "head" of the doctrine which is Divine Election and Reprobation. Children remember it as "unconditional election).

Here is Article 17, under the "U":

"Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."

Well, then, Jon, if what you say about infant baptism is correct(and I do not doubt you about that), I guess I will henceforth not use the term, Doctrines of Grace, with reference to my hope in Christ. Which seems another reason that I can say that I am not a Calvinist nor Reformed, but a Sovereign Grace Baptist in fellowship with Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana.

 

[Silverhair]

The acronym, TULIP, says nothing about infants. Now if you are, perhaps, referring to something John Calvin wrote, or what some church that calls itself Calvinistic teaches, then that is an excellent example of why I am correct in not calling myself a Calvinist, as I do not believe what you wrote about infants.

So if TULIP says nothing about infants then how do you deal with this Ken.

Article IV."he sinning, all his posterity sinned in him, and came short of the glory of God; the guilt of whose sin is imputed, and a corrupt nature derived, to all his offspring, descending from him by ordinary and natural generation: that they are by their first birth carnal and unclean, averse to all that is good, incapable of doing any, and prone to every sin; and are also by nature children of wrath, and under a sentence of condemnation, and so are subject not only to corporal death, and involved in a moral one, commonly called spiritual, but also liable to an eternal death, as considered in the first Adam, fallen sinners; from all which there is no deliverance but Christ the second Adam."

So if everyone is condemned at birth, per your churches articles of faith, and one has to trust in Christ to be saved then what happens to babies that die?

Note I am not saying that baptism of infants will save them. What I am saying is that your view of all have sinned in Adam is wrong.

 

[Zaatar71]

Well, then, Jon, if what you say about infant baptism is correct(and I do not doubt you about that), I guess I will henceforth not use the term, Doctrines of Grace, with reference to my hope in Christ. Which seems another reason that I can say that I am not a Calvinist nor Reformed, but a Sovereign Grace Baptist in fellowship with Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana.

John renames things, to get away from the actual uses. This discussion was not about infants.

 

[Zaatar71]

So if TULIP says nothing about infants then how do you deal with this Ken.

Article IV."he sinning, all his posterity sinned in him, and came short of the glory of God; the guilt of whose sin is imputed, and a corrupt nature derived, to all his offspring, descending from him by ordinary and natural generation: that they are by their first birth carnal and unclean, averse to all that is good, incapable of doing any, and prone to every sin; and are also by nature children of wrath, and under a sentence of condemnation, and so are subject not only to corporal death, and involved in a moral one, commonly called spiritual, but also liable to an eternal death, as considered in the first Adam, fallen sinners; from all which there is no deliverance but Christ the second Adam."

So if everyone is condemned at birth, per your churches articles of faith, and one has to trust in Christ to be saved then what happens to babies that die?

Note I am not saying that baptism of infants will save them. What I am saying is that your view of all have sinned in Adam is wrong.

It does have things to say about infants. Elect infants.