The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

[Dave G]

he only needs to evidence that with faith at some time point in time.

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." ( Hebrews 11:1-4 ).

Faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

By that same evidence, the elders obtained a good report.
Through evidential faith, believers understand creation and all that God's word tells us.
By that same evidential faith, Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain did.

That's what I see when I read the passage above.

 

[Dave G]

a person is justified and saved before they believe and confess with their mouth

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts 13:48 ). <---- Only those that were ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life, believed.

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 ). <---- Justification, being conformed to the image of His Son, "calling" and so forth, performed by God for only the foreknown.

Again, that is how I read them, Dave, though we may disagree.
If that is what makes me a "Calvinist" ( though I was never exposed to any of this before roughly 2003, and that was after spending 25+ years in Independent Baptist Churches that had never even read any of this from the pulpit ), then I suppose that's a label I'll have to live with.

However, I didn't come to this through the traditional route ( by attending a "Sovereign Grace" or "Reformed" church )...
I simply picked up my Bible and started reading it for myself one day, exactly as my former pastors told me to do.

 

[KenH]

Hey Ken.

I'm short on time, please consider...Emphasis on "but now" and "firstfruits".

2 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

The Lamb slain from the foundations of the world was an eternal decree made from the foundations of the world, but it still had to happen in time. Thus, the "but now", and the "first fruits".

Dave

Thank you for expounding your viewpoint.

Just in case you may be interested, Bill Parker, a friend of mine, has a 52 page booklet available free to read online on the subject of the timing of justification - https://n.b5z.net/i/u/10086795/f/When_Are_Gods_People_Justified_in_His_Sight_new.pdf.

 

[KenH]

Why would you expect someone who does not agree with your view to trust someone who promotes your view.

I don't want anyone to trust me or any mere human being, I want people to trust God's Word.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't want anyone to trust me or any mere human being, I want people to trust God's Word.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I do trust the word of God and that is why I am not a calvinist.

 

[KenH]

I do trust the word of God and that is why I am not a calvinist.

I'm not a Calvinist, either. I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist. Now, Sovereign Grace Baptists are sometimes lumped in with Calvinists, but we do not follow John Calvin(personally, I have not read John Calvin's writings except for some quotes of him by other people), and we are also not part of the Reformed Church.

 

[JonC]

I don't want anyone to trust me or any mere human being, I want people to trust God's Word.

I agree. And we should constantly test our doctrine, searching God's Word daily. As we lean not on our own understanding but on every word coming from God, this is an essential mark in the life of a believer.

Some people believe what men tell them the Bible teaches. Some read the Bible and come up with ideas they think the Bible teaches.

BUT, like you, I also believe the Bible teaches what is actually written in God's Word. God's Word makes sence and is complete without other "teachings".

And, like you, I can test my faith with actual Scripture rather than testing what I believe is taught by the Bible against what I think the Bible teaches.

You and I can test our faith with a Bible and a highlighter. Many can't do that.

This leads me to a few questions. Since you and I both believe we shoukd trust God's Word ratger than what some think is taught by God's Word:

In your searching of Scripture have you found a verse stating Jesus experienced God's wrath?
Have you found a verse stating that God punished our sins on Jesus instead of us?
Have you found a verse stating God must punish sins to forgive sins?
Have you found a verse calling a person(s) who are dead in their sins the "elect" (in terms of salvation)


I ask because I abandoned Calvinism because I had to make a choice - either trust Calvinism or trust God's Word.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not a Calvinist, either. I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist. Now, Sovereign Grace Baptists are sometimes lumped in with Calvinists, but we do not follow John Calvin(personally, I have not read John Calvin's writings except for some quotes of him by other people), and we are also not part of the Reformed Church.

Funny how people that will hold to calvinist view points deny that they are calvinists.

This is from What We Believe — Sovereign Grace Baptist Church

The Canons of Dort (1618-1619)​

1. Man is depraved, and has no ability to contribute to his own salvation, or merit the merits of Christ. {T}
2. Election is unconditional depending only on the sovereign choice of God. {U}
3. The atonement is limited to the elect. A definite redemption was made. {L}
4. God’s grace is irresistible. {I}
5. The saints will persevere in the faith, being kept by the power of God.
6. Their salvation is certain. {P}

I added the {} makes to make it clear what you hold. So tell me again why you should not be called a calvinist.

 

[KenH]

Funny how people that will hold to calvinist view points deny that they are calvinists.

This is from What We Believe — Sovereign Grace Baptist Church

The Canons of Dort (1618-1619)​

1. Man is depraved, and has no ability to contribute to his own salvation, or merit the merits of Christ. {T}
2. Election is unconditional depending only on the sovereign choice of God. {U}
3. The atonement is limited to the elect. A definite redemption was made. {L}
4. God’s grace is irresistible. {I}
5. The saints will persevere in the faith, being kept by the power of God.
6. Their salvation is certain. {P}

I added the {} makes to make it clear what you hold. So tell me again why you should not be called a calvinist.

Well, I am not familiar with the particular church you are referencing up in New York. Here are the articles of faith I agree with of Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, where I attend services:

Articles of Faith

 

[KenH]

In your searching of Scripture have you found a verse stating Jesus experienced God's wrath?

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.

 

[KenH]

Have you found a verse stating that God punished our sins on Jesus instead of us?

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[KenH]

Have you found a verse stating God must punish sins to forgive sins?

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.

 

[JonC]

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.

As you probably know, Isaiah 53 (the actual text) does not present Jesus as experiencing God's wrath. The text itself states that it was God's will to crush Him (compare this to Peter's sermon attributing His death to the wicked but by God's predetermined plan).

I do understand that people believe Isaiah teaches different things. For example, in the cobtext of the passage Jesus was suffering evil (the evil doers, the men esteemed Him stricken by God, etc)

I am dorry ai was not more clear.

What I mean is are there any actual passages that state in the text that what Jesus experienced was God's wrath.

 

[KenH]

Have you found a verse calling a person(s) who are dead in their sins the "elect" (in terms of salvation)

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[KenH]

What I mean is are there any actual passages that state in the text that what Jesus experienced was God's wrath.

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.

 

[JonC]

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Again, I agree that He has made Him to be sin for us.

You missed what I was asking. I was not asking for verses whete you could tell us what you belueve God's Word teaches because I believe what is taught is what is written.


Obviously 2 Cor 5:21 does not state that God punished Jesus instead of us.

It states that God made Jesus who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[JonC]

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin.

Again....not adking what you believe the Bible teaches.

I believe the Bible teaches what is written in the text. Words have meanings.

 

[KenH]

Look, @JonC, regardless of what verses I quote, you are going to disagree. So what's the point? We already know that we believe different gospels.

 

[JonC]

Look, @JonC, regardless of what verses I quote, you are going to disagree. So what's the point? We already know that we believe different gospels.

I was actually looking for a verse that stated what you believe.

For example, If I believe Jesus is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins.
I can point to 1 Jn 2:2. You could interpret the word as "propitiation" znd another as "expiation".

But even though we might disagree we are going to God's Word.

I can do that with my understanding of Atonement. I may make a misinterpretation, but it would be of the actual Biblical text.

That is the kind of thing I was looking for - not what you think might be taught but is actually written because I believe the Bible actually teaches "what is written".

Men can say the Bible teaches anything. I think it is important to trust God's Word.

I also hold extra-biblical beliefs (I think we all do). But this is a foundational doctrines. I certainly would not lean on my extra-biblical briefs.

BUT yes, I absolutely agree with you that we hold different gospels. I can give you the gospel I hold and you can highlight it in your Bible (even if we disagree about interpretation). For your "gospel" one would have to write it down and past it in their Bible to find it there. The danger, obviously, is which gospel (your version or mine) is the power of God unto salvation?

As mine is actually God's Word and nit what men think is taught in the Bible, we all know what I have chosen. And we know what you have chosen as well. The thing is, for you to believe a false gospel all it takes is for men to have misunderstood what the Bible teaches. For me to be wrong God would have to be wrong.

I like my odds.

You can use the biblical standard with my belief as well. Fair is fair and I welcome correction.

The ultimate point is to determine if our beliefs (even when people disagree) are really in God's Word or if they are just theories men believe are taught by God's Word.

It is important because we are commanded to test doctrine and to lean on every word that comes from God rather than our own understanding.

Does a belief that merely represents what some Christians believe really matter if it cannot be tested against what is written in Scripture and pass that test????

 

[Silverhair]

Well, I am not familiar with the particular church you are referencing up in New York. Here are the articles of faith I agree with of Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, where I attend services:

Articles of Faith

I just did a search for one of your sovereign grace churches.

But I did look at your churches articles of faith. This is what I found, not as clearly as in some statements but it is there.

IV {Total {Inability} Depravity} "...they are by their first birth carnal and unclean, averse to all that is good, incapable of doing any, and prone to every sin;"

VII {Unconditional Election} "...without the consideration of any works of righteousness done by them "
Rather ambiguous here. Are you saying that faith is a work?

III {Limited Atonement} "...God did elect a certain number of sinners unto everlasting salvation"

VI {Limited Atonement} "it was only intentionally designed for the elect of God, and sheep of Christ, who only share the special and peculiar blessings of it"

VIII {Irresistible Grace} "and irresistible grace of God"

IX {Perseverence of the Saints} "...shall certainly and finally persevere, so that not one of them shall perish"

So while you say you do not hold to the TULIP doctrines it is in your churches articles of faith.