The Gospel that Calvinism cannot believe.

[Dave G]

These God Fearing Gentiles were present in Acts 13.

Yes, there were.
Paul is addressing both those of Israel and those among the Gentiles that "feared" ( respected ) God.
" Men [and] brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent."

But since, by nature, no one seeks God and there is no "fear" before anyone's eyes ( Romans 3:9-18 ), then to me many of these men were already evidencing God's work in them by the fact that they feared God.
So, Paul here is telling me that to His elect was the word of their salvation sent...

Which is why "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

 

[Dave G]

Paul preaches the Gospel. The OT Jewish false believers leave, the OT God fearing Gentiles stay to hear more. the next Sabbath....

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Sorry buddy, but context is the beauty that killed the beast called Calvinism.

I'm sorry, Dave, but it looks to me as if God's word from other places, and the things that Paul would later reveal to the churches ( that all of mankind starts out as "dead in trespasses and sins" ), is what comes into play here.

Because of that, I see that the Gentiles who ended up believing what Paul preached at Antioch in Pisidia, were sent a preacher by God ( please see Romans 10:14-21 ) to preach the Gospel to them...
Which is why the Lord had Paul phrase it the way that he did:

" Men [and] brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent." ( Acts 13:26 )

Not only was Paul preaching Christ to Jews ( most of whom would not end up believing ), he was also preaching to those of God's Gentile elect because he was sent by the Spirit of God to do so.
For proof of this, please see Acts 13 farther up, where the Scripture specifically tells us:

" So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost..." ( Acts 13:4 )

Have you not read these things, my friend?

 

[Dave G]

It's not rocket surgery. Your belief of 'be saved and believe' is backwards from the Gospel message.

Not if one takes into account all that the Lord Jesus, Peter, Paul and even John had to say about election, Dave.
That's why I disagree....

Because Scripture tells us why some believe and why others do not.
For example, He had Paul tell the Philippians why they believed:

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; " ( Philippians 1:29 ).

Which brings us back around to what Hebrews tells us that faith is, Dave...
The evidence of God's work, not the determiner of God's work.

Our will had nothing to do with our being born again ( John 1:13 ).

 

[Dave G]

Hey Dave

I'm guessing that what you're doing with John 5:24 is what is commonly done with 1 John 5:1?

Yes, same thing.
That is how I currently understand it.

Let me know if that's not what you meant. It's just a statement of fact. He's not saying that they already had eternal life before they believed.

I'm sorry, but that is how I see it.

Just out of curiosity, in John 3:18 that you quoted, what of those future believers, the elect that have not yet come to believe, are they condemned already also?

No they are not.
Not one of the ones that the Lord Jesus was sent to save will ever be lost:

" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand. " ( John 10:27-29 )

God the Father is not willing that any of His beloved perish, but that they all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )

 

[KenH]

I have looked for the biblical text that shows salvific faith given to a person.

Acts 11:18 Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 16:14 Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

(emphasis mine)

 

[KenH]

You do realize that infant baptism is not why we would call you a calvinist/reformed.

I understand. I do not consider myself a Calvinist nor Reformed, but a Sovereign Grace Baptist. Just want to make that clear.

 

[Silverhair]

I understand. I do not consider myself a Calvinist nor Reformed, but a Sovereign Grace Baptist. Just want to make that clear.

But you still hold to the Calvinist/reformed views not withstanding that you use a different term to define your views.

 

[Silverhair]

As I said "I have looked for the biblical text that shows salvific faith given to a person."
Your response does not provide any verses that show that Ken.

Acts 11:18 Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God chose to pour out His Spirit on the Gentiles, as He had previously done for the Jews who believed. God granted the Gentiles repentance to life because they believed.

Acts 16:14 Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Lydia, who was already a worshiper of God, heard what Paul was saying and responded to the message about the risen Christ. She already had faith in God but did not know of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him.

The Philippians were already believers in Christ Jesus. Paul was just reminding them that it is to be considered an honor to suffer for Christ because you believe in Him.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Paul is not speaking of faith here but rather of gifts and or talents received from the Holy Spirit.

But what we do not see in any of these verses is faith being given.

 

[KenH]

But you still hold to the Calvinist/reformed views not withstanding that you use a different term to define your views.

I am quite aware of that. However, I do not agree with the practice of infant baptism as some who are called Calvinists and Reformed practice. Thus, I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist.

 

[Dave...]

If anything, I clearly see that the Gentiles who believed there are those of God's elect that did so some years after Pentecost...
During the time of what we know as "the New Testament".

Yes, but Dave, before Pentecost they were already declared righteous, and justified, just like Abraham. If their OT faith was a genuine saving faith, then they will hear and believe the Gospel per the Fathers promise to the Son that He would not lose one of them. The OT already declared righteous believers who heard the Gospel and trusted in Jesus before the Cross were given the right to become Sons of God (John 1:11-12). That promise was fulfilled at Pentecost with the indwelling. Other true OT believers, after Pentecost, already declared righteous by OT faith, still needed to hear the Gospel so that they would believe and receive the Holy Spirit as promised, thus, the birth of the Church and the transition (all true OT believers hear and believe the Gospel). The OT dead, like Abraham, who were also already declared righteous by faith, and died having not received the promises (Hebrews 11:13), also heard the Gospel (1 Peter 3:19), and received them. Now they too could be with the Father.

---------------------------------
Before Paradise is in Hades.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Jesus Ascends (With OT true believers already physically dead, like Abraham, etc.)

Then Eph 4:8-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."(Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

When Jesus ascends, He takes Paradise with Him. Paradise in the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
--------------------------------

And all that the Father gave the Son, except Judas, were believers of the Gospel and saved. The transition is over. A failure to recognize that unique and unrepeatable point in time will have you using Scripture from both before and after the DRA as if they are the same, but they are not. The context makes them different. What are the things? The death resurrection and ascension. The giving of the Holy Spirit (indwelling). The birth of the Church. Placing [OT] members into that Church, Jesus, The Gospel being revealed as a means for entering that Church, Jesus, and receiving the promises. The realization of the receiving the actual righteousness of God that was declared to all OT believers by promise. Atonement realized. The promises are fulfilled at that transition. These are not things that always were.

But, I do agree that they were Gentile believers ....
Who had no knowledge of what the Lord Jesus had done for them on the cross up until that time.

Exactly. Yet they needed to hear.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

These are the OT true believers already declared righteous by faith. It doesn't matter if they hear and believe the Gospel before of after Pentecost, just as long as they believe the Gospel before they die, which everyone of them will. The before and after only dictates when they will receive the promises of the Father, mainly, the Holy Spirit indwelling, which makes them one with Jesus, officially, literally justifying them and making them born again, so that they can now go to be with the Father (John 3:13-15).

John 10:23-30 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one."

The Gentiles, the true OT declared righteous by faith believers God is bringing them the Gospel, even after Pentecost. The transition is over when all the genuine OT believers hear and believe the Gospel.

You can see this all throughout Acts. See Acts 10.

 

[Dave...]

I understand from God's word that Old Testament believers experienced the same new birth as New Testament believers.
The major difference between them is that the Holy Ghost was not given "wholesale", in the same way, to all Old Testament believers.
What do I "do" with them?

I believe that they did experience the same new birth, but only after they heard the Gospel and believed and received the Holy Spirit "wholesale" as you say. Until that time, they were only declared righteous and justified by promise. They were not born again, since they were not in Christ. And the means to make a person in Christ, the indwelling, called the placing into (baptism) with the Holy Spirit which places us into the Body, Jesus, was not yet given. Before Pentecost, there was no righteousness to impute, no atonement made, no means to be born again, and no means to access those things even if they did already existed because the Holy Spirit was not yet given. This is what the OT true believers were waiting for. The promises of the Father.

Many of them died having not received the promises....

The same thing that the Scriptures do with them in Hebrews 11...
I count them as God's elect who were given the gifts of faith and repentance;

And by it, did many things towards God and for Him.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The ones still living were the transition that we call the birth of the Church that happened at Pentecost, and after. Unless you are a true OT believer who began his faith before Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension, when it was considered a saving faith in what was revealed at that time, and are still alive today, and have not yet heard the Gospel of Jesus, like those in Acts 19:2-6, then the transition is over.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

And he is still coming from a calvinist view that come from 4th century augustine thought which in turn was molded in pagan thought.

When you twist scripture or come up with special definitions for words then your comments do become a tad suspect.

Why would you expect someone who does not agree with your view to trust someone who promotes your view.

From what I have seen of calvinism they do not hold to biblical theology but rather have come up with a different gospel which I reject.

I have a question for any moderators. Why is a guy who goes around declaring anyone that doesn't believe what he believes to be unsaved, still have an account on the board? He has nothing valuable to contribute and his fallback is to accuse people of not believing the Bible and holding to a false gospel.

 

[Dave...]

Yes, there were.
Paul is addressing both those of Israel and those among the Gentiles that "feared" ( respected ) God.
" Men [and] brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent."

But since, by nature, no one seeks God and there is no "fear" before anyone's eyes ( Romans 3:9-18 ), then to me many of these men were already evidencing God's work in them by the fact that they feared God.
So, Paul here is telling me that to His elect was the word of their salvation sent...

Which is why "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Fearing God means respecting God? OK Dave.

The Jews and Gentiles prayed in the synagogues every Sabbath because they respected God. Cornelius was sent to Peter because Peter needed to know that these Gentiles respected God. And back to relying on the TULIP system again. The Word of God defines the system, not the other way around.

Fear of God was another way of saying a saving faith in the Old Testament. It's basically synonymous with saving faith.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

I have a question for any moderators. Why is a guy who goes around declaring anyone that doesn't believe what he believes to be unsaved, still have an account on the board? He has nothing valuable to contribute and his fallback is to accuse people of not believing the Bible and holding to a false gospel.

Some Words From the Mod

They are not: a difference of opinion. a difference of interpretation of facts. For example, I am a Republican in more or less the mold of Theodore Roosevelt. My father (who grew up on a farm during the Depression) is a New Deal Democrat. We have differences of opinion and...

www.baptistboard.com

I'd say @Silverhair can be accurately described as a slanderer according to @Squire Robertsson

 

[Dave...]

Acts 11:18 Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Many of the Jews of that time believed that God's promises were only for Jews. Corneous was sent to Peter who though the Gentiles were considered unclean by God. You have quoted Peters reaction who after seeing the same signs and wonders for the Gentiles receiving the Holy spirit, reports back to the other Apostles that the Gentiles were in fact granted [actual] salvation just like them.

The salvation talked about here were the promises realized. Actual salvation. For the Jews and the Gentiles. Nobody was yet saved until Pentecost. Gentiles had that promise all the way back to Nineveh, at least. That was about 600 B.C. The Jewish people just didn't want to believe it. The grafting in may have more to do with the NT promises being realized, though I haven't worked that out yet.

I just realized the we now have a secular alternative to B.C., that is B.C.E.. means before common era.

Acts 16:14 Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Lydia was already a true OT believer, hearing the Gospel for the first time, she would believe because the Father gave her to the Son already, The sheep.

14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him.

To believe while being persecuted. In other words, to persevere.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

(emphasis mine)

Gifts of the Spirit. Begins when we receive the Holy Spirit after faith. Gal 3:2-3

 

[Brightfame52]

2b. Secondly, Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

I agree

 

[Silverhair]

Some Words From the Mod

They are not: a difference of opinion. a difference of interpretation of facts. For example, I am a Republican in more or less the mold of Theodore Roosevelt. My father (who grew up on a farm during the Depression) is a New Deal Democrat. We have differences of opinion and...

www.baptistboard.com

I'd say @Silverhair can be accurately described as a slanderer according to @Squire Robertsson

It would seem you do not like that I point out the obvious errors of your particular view.

According to the view that has been posted by many calvinists on here they have to be given faith so they can believe so logically it is not their faith is it?

Then one has to question if that faith they think they have is actually true faith or as calvin called it just an evanescent faith.

Remember it is the calvinists that say of those that later turn away from the faith they claimed to hold that they never really were part of the elect. But for all those calvinists it would seem the faith they claimed to have been given by God was in fact just false.

According to Calvin, God gave such people a delusion that made them think they were saved, and even feel like they were saved, only to eventually remove this fleeting grace and reveal that they were just deluded hypocrites that God had never regenerated and whose faith, while it seemed very real to them, was not real faith at all.

Now does that sound like the God we find in scripture or one that has been made up to fit a particular theological view.

So @5 point Gillinist no slander. I have just pointed out what calvin had already said.

 

[Dave G]

The Word of God defines the system, not the other way around.

Yes, it does.
That's why I agree with "TULIP";

Because in the details and upon every word of God, I see it as being completely Scriptural.

Fear of God was another way of saying a saving faith in the Old Testament. It's basically synonymous with saving faith.

Dave, there's no such thing as "saving faith".
God does not save a person, eternally, because of their trust in Him;

He saves them because He chooses to, and gives them the faith to carry them through this life and into the next.
This is how He saves:

" Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple." ( Psalm 65:4 ).

The Lord declares that all those that He has chosen and caused to approach Him, by the new birth and by revealing to them the truth of His word, are His beloved... and they will inherit the earth.

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Dave G]

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Amen.

The ones still living were the transition that we call the birth of the Church that happened at Pentecost, and after. Unless you are a true OT believer who began his faith before Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension, when it was considered a saving faith in what was revealed at that time, and are still alive today, and have not yet heard the Gospel of Jesus, like those in Acts 19:2-6, then the transition is over.

Yes, I agree that the transition is over, and that, long ago.

But again, God sends His preachers wherever His elect are, Dave.
Even today, they see, hear and believe the Gospel of their salvation when His words are preached to them...the same Gospel that Paul was tasked with preaching to the Gentiles, and the same exact Gospel that he wrote the details of in his letters to the churches.

That Gospel also includes how and why they are saved, and why others are not;
Why they will endure to the end, and others will not.
Why they have faith, while others do not.

Why they trust Him, through thick and thin, and others fall away from the faith... and most give Him nary a thought throughout their daily lives, while He is praised by His children every day for his goodness to them.

 

[Dave G]

Which again, brings us back around to faith, which Scripture says is evidential ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not influential...unless one is speaking with respect to those that He has already saved and have been found to be in His favor.

Then their faith "saves" them, from all of the evil around them and from all the fears that would consume them.

For the record, Abraham's faith is not what the Lord looked upon in order to grant him both repentance and eternal life...
God's gracious choice of Abraham ( and Lot ) out of who knows how many of his generation, is the only thing that Abraham stands upon.

The biggest part of why He chose to reveal Himself to Abraham, was because He sought a people for His names' sake...
A physical people to manifest Himself to, and a spiritual people to do the same to.
Even now He is gathering to Himself a remnant ( and it's a big one by our standards, Revelation 7:9 ) out of each and every generation who will praise him for the glory of His grace;

Not giving them what they deserve, but what they do not deserve.

I wish you could see it, Dave, I really do...
The truth is, we have no control over who He saves and who He does not.
If you, me or anyone else has believed on His Son from the heart, it's because of what the Lord has done for us;
Not what we have done for Him.


As always, I wish you well, and I will make this my last reply in your thread.
May God bless you.