The Greek in John 14:2--Mansions? Rooms? Dwelling Places? Homes?

[InTheLight]

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:2 KJV

My Father’s house has many rooms; NIV

In my Father's house are many rooms. ESV

In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; NASB

In my Father’s house are many homes. WEB
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There are many variations on the translation of the word in John 14:2 that I've memorized via the KJV to be "mansions".

Greek scholars, what do you think is the proper translation and why?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[GoodTidings]

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:2 KJV

My Father’s house has many rooms; NIV

In my Father's house are many rooms. ESV

In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; NASB

In my Father’s house are many homes. WEB
----

There are many variations on the translation of the word in John 14:2 that I've memorized via the KJV to be "mansions".

Greek scholars, what do you think is the proper translation and why?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Part of the problem is that what we call "mansions" today, is not what they called mansions back in the 17th century when the KJV was written. Our view of a mansion is a house with three levels 52 rooms and sitting on 180 acres with a seven car garage.

When the KJV and earlier English translations were written, a "mansion" was literally a room off of the home of a wealthy person. That "room" served as lodging for important guests. It was like a small luxury house with a bedroom, living room, dining area and was serviced with a full wait staff. It had all of the amenities that the homeowner enjoyed. But it was a temporary dwelling. So the word mansion is a correct translation from a historical vantage point.

 

[Logos1560]

At John 14:2, three early English Bibles from the Greek Received Text have the rendering "dwelling places" while the 1535 Coverdale's Bible and the 1538 Coverdale's Duoglott have "dwellings." The 1543 Spanish Enzinas also has "moradas" [dwelling] at John 14:2. Luther's German Bible has "Wonungn" [dwellings] at John 14:2. Concerning this verse, Martin Luther wrote: “First of all, they should know of the many abodes for them with the Father” (Luther’s Works, Vol. 24, p. 26). Wycliffe’s Bible has “dwellings” at John 14:2. At this verse, the 1657 English edition of The Dutch Annotations has "In my Father's house [That is, in heaven] are many dwellings [or abidings, or abiding places]."

The KJV translators rendered this same Greek word as "abode" at John 14:23. Would Gail Riplinger claim that “abode” was the KJV’s perfect built-in definition for mansion?

Ken Barker noted: "The word 'mansions' in King James's day had the idea of 'manse,' which was a dwelling" (Accuracy Defined & Illustrated, p. 91). In 1604, Robert Cawdrey defined mansion as “an abiding place“(Table Alphabetical). In his 1828 Dictionary, Noah Webster gave the first definition of mansion as "any place of residence; a house; a habitation." He then listed the usage of "mansion" at John 14:2 as an example of this definition. Waite's Defined KJB gave the following definition for mansion: "resting, abiding, or dwelling places" (p. 1418). David Cloud’s Concise KJB Dictionary has this meaning: “an abode” (p. 58). The Liberty Annotated Study Bible gave the following note for mansions: "Lit. dwellings" (p. 1639). Green's Concise Lexicon defined the Greek word used at John 14:2 and 23 as "an abode, dwelling" (p. 85). A Bible Word List in the back of the Cambridge Standard Text Edition of the KJV defined mansions as “resting places, abiding places.“

 

[Alan Gross]

This is a reference straight from Gill, at Studylight. I believe it is God-Honoring. Some references to the usage of these words by The Jews are sited. (I am not a Greek Scholar, / so. you aren't even talking to me; however, I do dismiss The NIV, ESV, NASB, & WEB, out of hand, on Greek grounds. The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus on which many of these 'modern translations are based, were known to be spurious before they were employed. The ommissions and misrepresentations that result to Jesus' Deity, Pre-Existence, Virgin Birth, Lordship, Ascension, etc., etc., were too obvious and deliberate to be used by believers, based on comparative perpetuity of available manuscripts, i.e., by the saints; and the Preservation of the Inspiration, by The Holy Spirit of God.)

John 14 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition on the Whole Bible

"In my Father's house are many mansions",.... This he says to draw off their minds from an earthly kingdom to an heavenly one; to point out the place to them whither he was going, and to support them with the views and hopes of glory under all their troubles.

By his "Father's house" is meant heaven; see 2 Corinthians 5:1; which is of his Father's building, where he has, and will have all his family.

This Christ says partly to reconcile the minds of his disciples to his departure from them, and partly to strengthen their hope of following him thither; since it was his Father's, and their Father's house whither he was going, and in which "are many mansions"; abiding or dwelling places; mansions of love, peace, joy, and rest, which always remain: and there are "many" of them, which does not design different degrees of glory; for since the saints are all loved with the same love, bought with the same price, justified with the same righteousness, and are equally the sons of God, their glory will be the same.

But, it denotes fulness and sufficiency of room for all his people; for the many ordained to eternal life, for whom Christ gave his life a ransom, and whose blood is shed for the remission of their sins, whose sins he bore, and whom he justifies by his knowledge; who receive him by faith, and are the many sons he will bring to glory.

And this is said for the comfort of the disciples who might be assured from hence, that there would be room not only for himself and Peter, whom he had promised should follow him hereafter, but for them all. Very agreeable to this way of speaking are many things in the Jewish writings:

"says R. Isaack F15, how many מדורין על מדורין, "mansions upon mansions", are there for the righteous in that world? and the uppermost mansion of them all is the love of their Lord.'

Moreover, they say F16, that

"in the world to come every righteous man shall have מדור, "a mansion", to himself.'

Sometimes they F17 speak of "seven mansions" (a number of perfection) being prepared for the righteous in the other world, though entirely ignorant of the person by whom these mansions are prepared: who here says,

"if it were not so, I, would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you".

This expresses the certainty of it, that his Father had a house, and in it were many mansions, room enough for all his people, or he would have informed them otherwise, who must needs know the truth of these things, since he came from thence;

and who never deceives with vain hopes of glory; and whatever he says is truth, and to be depended on; everything he here delivers;

both what he said before, and also what follows: "I go to prepare a place for you";

heaven is a kingdom prepared by the Father for his saints, from the foundation of the world; and again, by the presence and intercession of Christ, who is gone before, and is as a forerunner entered into it, and has took possession of it in the name of his people; and by his own appearance there for them with his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, he is, as it were, fitting up these mansions for their reception, whilst they are by his Spirit and grace fitting and preparing for the enjoyment of them.

 

[InTheLight]

This is a reference straight from Gill, at Studylight. I believe it is God-Honoring. Some references to the usage of these words by The Jews are sited. (I am not a Greek Scholar, / so. you aren't even talking to me; however, I do dismiss The NIV, ESV, NASB, & WEB, out of hand, on Greek grounds. The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus on which many of these 'modern translations are based, were known to be spurious before they were employed. The ommissions and misrepresentations that result to Jesus' Deity, Pre-Existence, Virgin Birth, Lordship, Ascension, etc., etc.,

I thought the WEB translation was based on the Byzantine Majority Text and not the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts.

Thanks for your input but you didn't really address my question. Unless you think the word should be translated "mansion", and therefore would mean to modern readers a sprawling 10,000 square foot house on acres of land.

Do you agree the word as translated by the KJV as "mansion" is correct? Even for readers in the 21st century?

 

[InTheLight]

At John 14:2, three early English Bibles from the Greek Received Text have the rendering "dwelling places" while the 1535 Coverdale's Bible and the 1538 Coverdale's Duoglott have "dwellings." The 1543 Spanish Enzinas also has "moradas" [dwelling] at John 14:2. Luther's German Bible has "Wonungn" [dwellings] at John 14:2. Concerning this verse, Martin Luther wrote: “First of all, they should know of the many abodes for them with the Father” (Luther’s Works, Vol. 24, p. 26). Wycliffe’s Bible has “dwellings” at John 14:2. At this verse, the 1657 English edition of The Dutch Annotations has "In my Father's house [That is, in heaven] are many dwellings [or abidings, or abiding places]."

The KJV translators rendered this same Greek word as "abode" at John 14:23. Would Gail Riplinger claim that “abode” was the KJV’s perfect built-in definition for mansion?

Ken Barker noted: "The word 'mansions' in King James's day had the idea of 'manse,' which was a dwelling" (Accuracy Defined & Illustrated, p. 91). In 1604, Robert Cawdrey defined mansion as “an abiding place“(Table Alphabetical). In his 1828 Dictionary, Noah Webster gave the first definition of mansion as "any place of residence; a house; a habitation." He then listed the usage of "mansion" at John 14:2 as an example of this definition. Waite's Defined KJB gave the following definition for mansion: "resting, abiding, or dwelling places" (p. 1418). David Cloud’s Concise KJB Dictionary has this meaning: “an abode” (p. 58). The Liberty Annotated Study Bible gave the following note for mansions: "Lit. dwellings" (p. 1639). Green's Concise Lexicon defined the Greek word used at John 14:2 and 23 as "an abode, dwelling" (p. 85). A Bible Word List in the back of the Cambridge Standard Text Edition of the KJV defined mansions as “resting places, abiding places.“

I'm going to assume you think the word should not be translated as "mansion" as used in the 21st century sense of the word, and instead should be translated "abode" or "dwelling".

 

[Agent47]

Part of the problem is that what we call "mansions" today, is not what they called mansions back in the 17th century when the KJV was written. Our view of a mansion is a house with three levels 52 rooms and sitting on 180 acres with a seven car garage.

When the KJV and earlier English translations were written, a "mansion" was literally a room off of the home of a wealthy person. That "room" served as lodging for important guests. It was like a small luxury house with a bedroom, living room, dining area and was serviced with a full wait staff. It had all of the amenities that the homeowner enjoyed. But it was a temporary dwelling. So the word mansion is a correct translation from a historical vantage point.

Great points.

How come the same word in John 14:23 is translated as ABODE?

 

[GoodTidings]

Great points.

How come the same word in John 14:23 is translated as ABODE?

It's not the same word. John 14:23, μονην is in the accusative and is an adjective. And John 4:2, μοναι is in the Nominative case and is a noun. As you can see the endings are different and that's what gives the words their meanings. In John 14:23 the idea is not of a temporary presence, but a permanent ongoing presence. Totally different than the temporary nature of the mansion in 4:2.

 

[rsr]

I thought the WEB translation was based on the Byzantine Majority Text and not the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts.

You are correct. In any case, there is no textual variant that would explain the difference in translation.

As to the KJV rendering of mansions, there are two ready possibilities: The KJV translators maintained Tyndale's original reading or they picked it up from the Rheims NT. The case for the second possibility is strengthened by the fact that the KJV translates the word as abode in 14:23, the first time that had been done in English, and repeated in the KJV.

The KJV translators made a conscious decision to adopt mansions/abode because the Bishops Bible, the version the KJV translators were ostensibly updating, has dwellying places/dwell.

 

[Logos1560]

As to the KJV rendering of mansions, there are two ready possibilities: The KJV translators maintained Tyndale's original reading or they picked it up from the Rheims NT. The case for the second possibility is strengthened by the fact that the KJV translates the word as abode in 14:23, the first time that had been done in English, and repeated in the KJV.

Did you mean to say that the Rheims translated the word as abode in 14:23, the first time that had been done in English and repeated in the KJV?

 

[Agent47]

It's not the same word. John 14:23, μονην is in the accusative and is an adjective. And John 4:2, μοναι is in the Nominative case and is a noun. As you can see the endings are different and that's what gives the words their meanings. In John 14:23 the idea is not of a temporary presence, but a permanent ongoing presence. Totally different than the temporary nature of the mansion in 4:2.

You are right, they are different. Look at Strong's which still gives the words the same meaning.


μονὴν (monēn)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 3438: Lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion. From meno; a staying, i.e. Residence.


μοναὶ (monai)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 3438: Lodging, dwelling-place, room, abode, mansion. From meno; a staying, i.e. Residence.

I don't know Greek and I suppose you do. Could you share with me any other example of a Biblical noun whose meaning varies as it changes from nominative to accusative?

I did a thick search and this is what I got:
Lesson 3. Nouns.—Introductory

Shifting from nominative to accusative and vice versa does not change the meaning of the subject noun so I don't think yours is a valid reason at all. But as I said, I don't know Greek at all.


PS
I can't see the temporal aspect of John 14:2 from the text. That is inferred from elsewhere. It is reading into the text.

 

[GoodTidings]

You are right, they are different. Look at Strong's which still gives the words the same meaning.

The difference is that in John 14:23 the word is speaks to time in the sense of permanence. Strong's is giving you the root meaning and all of the possible meanings, but it is not an analytical commentary that would address the nuance between how it is used in v. 2 vs. how it I used in v. 23. Strong's should never be used as a stand alone hermeneutic tool.

In v. 2 it uses the word "mansion" to speak to something less permanent and that is reflected in the Greek and in the context. The original audience would have naturally picked up on the difference between "mansion" and "abode."

 

[Agent47]

The difference is that in John 14:23 the word is speaks to time in the sense of permanence. Strong's is giving you the root meaning and all of the possible meanings, but it is not an analytical commentary that would address the nuance between how it is used in v. 2 vs. how it I used in v. 23. Strong's should never be used as a stand alone hermeneutic tool.

In v. 2 it uses the word "mansion" to speak to something less permanent and that is reflected in the Greek and in the context. The original audience would have naturally picked up on the difference between "mansion" and "abode."

Circular argument.

Nice attempt ,but you are just repeating yourself.

The imaginary difference is not justified by the type of nouns

Once again, thanks for trying

 

[GoodTidings]

Circular argument.

Nice attempt ,but you are just repeating yourself.

The imaginary difference is not justified by the type of nouns

Once again, thanks for trying

It is not a circular argument. You have two different usages to address two different things. And since you claim that you don't know Greek, you are not in a position to say that I am wrong. But you are not going to let ignorance get in the way, that is for sure.

 

[37818]

Just a side comment, the Heavenly Jerusalem's appearent size. I did a calculation assuming about 100 feet by 100 feet by a 100 feet for each room for each person. That assumption gives room for something like 400 trillion persons.

 

[agedman]

Does “skin of the teeth” count?

 

[Alan Gross]

May God Express to His children meaning from a word? that has a Interpretation which Reveals a Spiritual Reality and Realm that is above the irrelevant 'modern usage' assumed and Talk to us and Share His Promise that He has Provided "fullness and sufficiency of room for all his people; for the many ordained to eternal life, for whom Christ gave his life a ransom, and whose blood is shed for the remission of their sins, whose sins he bore, and whom he justifies by his knowledge; who receive him by faith, and are the many sons he will bring to glory"? (Gill in quotes).

Is it possible to have the irrelevant issue of modern usages of the word translated 'mansions' to mean there is "a place" for you?

'Mansions' is 'a place'.

Do we know more that that?
Do we attempt to say less than that?

 

[InTheLight]

Is it possible to have the irrelevant issue of modern usages of the word translated 'mansions' to mean there is "a place" for you?

'Mansions' is 'a place'.

Do we know more that that?
Do we attempt to say less than that?

Jesus' earthly occupation was a carpenter. He built things. Maybe he built or worked on houses. Therefore, it is interesting to me what this word (mansion, room, abode, dwelling) could mean.

If the Son of God, who is also a carpenter, tells you there are mansions in Heaven, and he's going to "prepare a place for you" there, I'm kind of curious as to what that place might be!

 

[Logos1560]

Here is an example of how the word "mansions" was used in a pre-1611 English Bible.

At Numbers 10:31, the Bishops‘ Bible has “mansions“ while the KJV has “how we are to encamp.”

 

[rsr]

Did you mean to say that the Rheims translated the word as abode in 14:23, the first time that had been done in English and repeated in the KJV?

Yes.