The Greek in John 14:2--Mansions? Rooms? Dwelling Places? Homes?

[canadyjd]

"My Father's House" is a reference to the temple in Jerusalem. Jesus used the same language when He cleared the temple of the money changers when He said they had made His "Father's House" a den of thieves.

The "staying places" were rooms for the priests who rotated to the temple for worship and service.

Jesus is telling His disciples (and all Christian's?) they will be priests in heaven, in the House of God, to offer continuous worship in the presence of God.

Much better than a big old house on a big estate far away from everyone else.

 

[Agent47]

It is not a circular argument. You have two different usages to address two different things. And since you claim that you don't know Greek, you are not in a position to say that I am wrong. But you are not going to let ignorance get in the way, that is for sure.

You only make sense to yourself.

Show another example of a noun modified by accusative and nominative.

Don’t bother, keep your ignorance to yourself


Thanks

 

[agedman]

"My Father's House" is a reference to the temple in Jerusalem. Jesus used the same language when He cleared the temple of the money changers when He said they had made His "Father's House" a den of thieves.

The "staying places" were rooms for the priests who rotated to the temple for worship and service.

Jesus is telling His disciples (and all Christian's?) they will be priests in heaven, in the House of God, to offer continuous worship in the presence of God.

Much better than a big old house on a big estate far away from everyone else.

This would sound good IF the new heaven and earth, that place being prepared, actually had a temple in it.

Nope, no temple there. Revelation 21:22

 

[GoodTidings]

You only make sense to yourself.

Show another example of a noun modified by accusative and nominative.

Don’t bother, keep your ignorance to yourself


Thanks

Says the little guy who can't actually mount an intelligent refutation. The only one displaying ignorance on this thread is you.

 

[Alan Gross]

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:2 KJV

My Father’s house has many rooms; NIV

In my Father's house are many rooms. ESV

In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; NASB

In my Father’s house are many homes. WEB
----

There are many variations on the translation of the word in John 14:2 that I've memorized via the KJV to be "mansions".

Greek scholars, what do you think is the proper translation and why?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

The World English Bible (WEB) is a Public Domain (no copyright) Modern English translation of the Holy Bible, based on the American Standard Version of the Holy Bible first published in 1901, the Biblia Hebraica Stutgartensa Old Testament, and the Greek Majority Text New Testament.
Read the World English Bible Free Online


The Revised Version, Standard American Edition of the Bible, more commonly known as the American Standard Version (ASV), is a revision of the King James Version and was released in 1901. It was originally best known by its full name, but soon came to have other names, such as the American Revised Version, the American Standard Revision, the American Standard Revised Bible, and the American Standard Edition. By the time its copyright was renewed in 1929, it had finally come to be known by its present name, the American Standard Version. Because of its prominence in seminaries, however, it was sometimes simply called the "Standard Bible".

The ASV was the basis of several later Bible revisions. They were the Revised Standard Version (1946-1952/1971), the Amplified Bible (1965), the New American Standard Bible (1963-1971/1995), and the Recovery Version (1999). The ASV was also the basis for the World English Bible and Kenneth N. Taylor's Bible paraphrase, The Living Bible, which was published in 1971.

The ASV is now considered antiquated, and rare antique editions are hard to find. Read the American Standard Version Free Online

Usage by Jehovah's Witnesses[edit]
The ASV has also been used for many years by Jehovah's Witnesses. The reasons for their choosing of the ASV were twofold: its usage of "Jehovah" as the Divine Name, which was a translation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) into English as some early Bible scholars had done before (i.e. Tyndale at Ps. 83:18[9]). They also derived their name from Isaiah 43.10, 12, both of which contain the phrase, "Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah." Also, there was a perception that the ASV had improved the translation of some verses in the King James Version, and in other places it reduced the verses that they found to be erroneously translated in the KJV to mere footnotes, removed from the main text altogether.[10]

Jehovah's Witnesses' publishing organization, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, had printed its own edition of the King James Version since 1926, but did not obtain the rights to print ASV until 1944. From 1944 to 1992, they printed and distributed over a million copies of the ASV. By the 1960s, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, made by members of their group and the rights to which they controlled, had largely replaced ASV as the Bible used most by Witnesses.[11] Though now preferring the NWT, Jehovah's Witnesses' publications frequently quote from other translations, including ASV. American Standard Version - Wikipedia

 

[InTheLight]

The World English Bible (WEB) is a Public Domain (no copyright) Modern English translation of the Holy Bible, based on the American Standard Version of the Holy Bible first published in 1901, the Biblia Hebraica Stutgartensa Old Testament, and the Greek Majority Text New Testament.
Read the World English Bible Free Online


The Revised Version, Standard American Edition of the Bible, more commonly known as the American Standard Version (ASV), is a revision of the King James Version and was released in 1901. It was originally best known by its full name, but soon came to have other names, such as the American Revised Version, the American Standard Revision, the American Standard Revised Bible, and the American Standard Edition. By the time its copyright was renewed in 1929, it had finally come to be known by its present name, the American Standard Version. Because of its prominence in seminaries, however, it was sometimes simply called the "Standard Bible".

The ASV was the basis of several later Bible revisions. They were the Revised Standard Version (1946-1952/1971), the Amplified Bible (1965), the New American Standard Bible (1963-1971/1995), and the Recovery Version (1999). The ASV was also the basis for the World English Bible and Kenneth N. Taylor's Bible paraphrase, The Living Bible, which was published in 1971.

The ASV is now considered antiquated, and rare antique editions are hard to find. Read the American Standard Version Free Online

Usage by Jehovah's Witnesses[edit]
The ASV has also been used for many years by Jehovah's Witnesses. The reasons for their choosing of the ASV were twofold: its usage of "Jehovah" as the Divine Name, which was a translation of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) into English as some early Bible scholars had done before (i.e. Tyndale at Ps. 83:18[9]). They also derived their name from Isaiah 43.10, 12, both of which contain the phrase, "Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah." Also, there was a perception that the ASV had improved the translation of some verses in the King James Version, and in other places it reduced the verses that they found to be erroneously translated in the KJV to mere footnotes, removed from the main text altogether.[10]

Jehovah's Witnesses' publishing organization, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, had printed its own edition of the King James Version since 1926, but did not obtain the rights to print ASV until 1944. From 1944 to 1992, they printed and distributed over a million copies of the ASV. By the 1960s, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, made by members of their group and the rights to which they controlled, had largely replaced ASV as the Bible used most by Witnesses.[11] Though now preferring the NWT, Jehovah's Witnesses' publications frequently quote from other translations, including ASV. American Standard Version - Wikipedia

Thanks for the off-topic post about the ASV and WEB.

So, for today's Bible readers, is the word correctly translated as "mansions"? Or should it be something else?

 

[Jerome]

Did you mean to say that the Rheims translated the word as abode in 14:23, the first time that had been done in English and repeated in the KJV?

No, Rhemes wasn't <the first time in English that Jn 14:23 had been translated using abode>.

I really must chuckle at this <well, abode wasn't there in Tyndale! (or Geneva!, or Bishops!)> stuff, seeing as the word apparently first arose in English circa 1570 !

abode (n.) • "habitual residence" • first attested 1570s

 

[Van]

The noun transliterated "mone" appears twice in the NT, here are John 14:2 and again at John 14:23. The NASB goes with "dwelling places" in verse 2, and abode in verse 23. Other translations go with mansions, homes, lodgings, and residences. I like residences and residence. No need to use different English words for the same Greek meaning.

 

[canadyjd]

This would sound good IF the new heaven and earth, that place being prepared, actually had a temple in it.

Nope, no temple there. Revelation 21:22

I think you are missing the point. Heaven is about being in the presence of God and worshipping Him. Jesus used an analogy they would understand.

Just as the priests had rooms in the temple to stay in when they came to Jerusalem to worship God, Jesus is saying He will make a place in heaven for them to be close to God and worship Him.

Remember, only priests were allowed to offer worship in the temple. They were considered to be close to God when they performed temple duties.

When Jesus said "I go", He is talking about going to the cross. His death is the necessary preparation that opens the doors of heaven and allows His followers to stand in the presence of God and worship, just as the priests stand in the temple and worship.

I don't believe there are literal rooms or houses in heaven. Jesus is talking about having a place close to God, to offer worship and praise to Him.

Peace to you

 

[Logos1560]

No, Rhemes wasn't <the first time in English that Jn 14:23 had been translated using abode>.

I really must chuckle at this <well, abode wasn't there in Tyndale! (or Geneva!, or Bishops!)> stuff, seeing as the word apparently first arose in English circa 1570 !

abode (n.) • "habitual residence" • first attested 1570s

If you say that abode was not used in English until 1570's, how could William Tyndale have used it in 1526 or 1534?

You did not cite and quote any actual English translation that used "abode" at John 14:23 before the 1582 Rheims. Which other specific English translation do you say has this rendering at John 14:23?

 

[Jerome]

If you say that abode was not used in English until 1570's, how could William Tyndale have used it in 1526 or 1534?

Sigh, read it again:
OED says the NOUN abode with meaning 'habitual residence' is not attested until the 1570s.

You did not cite and quote any actual English translation that used "abode" at John 14:23 before the 1582 Rheims.

Read it and weep:

English translation of ECF quoting it

 

[rsr]

What I inelegantly attempted to state was that the Rheims was the first Bible translation to couple mansions with make ... abode in English and that the KJV followed the wording in contradiction to any previous translation. As for weeping, I save that for things that really matter, and point-scoring ain't one of them.

 

[Logos1560]

English translation of ECF quoting it

You did not cite an actual pre-1611 English Bible translation. You do not demonstrate that this 1581 English translation of a exposition or commentary was actually used in the making of the KJV. Your example does not actually refute what the other poster stated.

So evidently you may know that Tyndale did not use "abode" at John 14:23 and that it is not in the 1560 Geneva Bible or in the 1568 Bishops' Bible at John 14:23 although your earlier misleading statement seemed to try to suggest otherwise.

 

[John of Japan]

It's not the same word. John 14:23, μονην is in the accusative and is an adjective. And John 4:2, μοναι is in the Nominative case and is a noun. As you can see the endings are different and that's what gives the words their meanings. In John 14:23 the idea is not of a temporary presence, but a permanent ongoing presence. Totally different than the temporary nature of the mansion in 4:2.

Actually, it is the same word; they both are the same noun, occurring only in these two places in the NT. Yes, in 14:23 it is in accusative, but it is not an adjective. It is not the inflection (endings) which give a Greek word meaning. Greek adjectives and nouns all have the same five cases. It is how a word is used that determine lexical meaning in all languages, not its inflection.

And the word never means a temporary dwelling place. Don't know which lexicon you got that out of. I looked it up just now in 7 different lexicons and none of them had the meaning of "temporary." It is simply a general word for "dwelling place."

 

[John of Japan]

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:2 KJV

My Father’s house has many rooms; NIV

In my Father's house are many rooms. ESV

In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; NASB

In my Father’s house are many homes. WEB
----

There are many variations on the translation of the word in John 14:2 that I've memorized via the KJV to be "mansions".

Greek scholars, what do you think is the proper translation and why?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

"Dwelling place" or something similar is the proper translation. Why? Because that is what it means in all usage and therefore in all lexicons. It can mean (especially in classical Greek) a stopping place as in a room in an inn, so "room" is barely passable.

 

[John of Japan]

Part of the problem is that what we call "mansions" today, is not what they called mansions back in the 17th century when the KJV was written. Our view of a mansion is a house with three levels 52 rooms and sitting on 180 acres with a seven car garage.

When the KJV and earlier English translations were written, a "mansion" was literally a room off of the home of a wealthy person. That "room" served as lodging for important guests. It was like a small luxury house with a bedroom, living room, dining area and was serviced with a full wait staff. It had all of the amenities that the homeowner enjoyed. But it was a temporary dwelling. So the word mansion is a correct translation from a historical vantage point.

You are correct. Give the man a banana! In modern British English it means: "a large building with many apartments; apartment house" (Definition of mansion | Dictionary.com). This meaning has become a loan word in Japanese, manshon (マンション), which means an upscale apartment.

 

[John of Japan]

This is a reference straight from Gill, at Studylight. I believe it is God-Honoring. Some references to the usage of these words by The Jews are sited. (I am not a Greek Scholar, / so. you aren't even talking to me; however, I do dismiss The NIV, ESV, NASB, & WEB, out of hand, on Greek grounds. The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus on which many of these 'modern translations are based, were known to be spurious before they were employed.

This is all irrelevant to the OP. All of the Greek NTs, including the TR and Byzantine/Majority and UBS (I checked) have the exact same Greek word for "mansion." There is not a textual problem for this verse, only a translation one.

 

[John of Japan]

You only make sense to yourself.

Show another example of a noun modified by accusative and nominative.

Don’t bother, keep your ignorance to yourself

Thanks

Greek is an inflected language. "Nominative" is the inflected ending of a noun or an adjective indicating that it is the subject of a sentence (substantival usage with the article in the case of an adj.) The accusative ending of a noun or adjective in Greek means that it is being used as the direct object of a verb.

 

[Agent47]

Greek is an inflected language. "Nominative" is the inflected ending of a noun or an adjective indicating that it is the subject of a sentence (substantival usage with the article in the case of an adj.) The accusative ending of a noun or adjective in Greek means that it is being used as the direct object of a verb.

All that is Greek(pun) to me. My question was whether the nominative and accusative nouns can change the meaning of the word from temporal to permanent as @GoodTidings alleges. Is it sufficient to warrant translating abode(temporary) in one place and mansion(permanent) in the other?

 

[John of Japan]

All that is Greek(pun) to me.

Come to my college, where everyone, men and women, has to learn Greek!

My question was whether the nominative and accusative nouns can change the meaning of the word from temporal to permanent as @GoodTidings alleges. Is it sufficient to warrant translating abode(temporary) in one place and mansion(permanent) in the other?

The meaning doesn't change whether it is nominative or accusative. For reference, think of the same thing in English: "My abode (nominative) is in Tokyo. I'm going home to my abode (accusative)."

Unlike Greek, English is mostly uninflected, but there are some inflected words, such as "he" (nominative) and "him" (accusative).