The Growth of Non Denominational Churches

[BobinKy]

I see from your profile that you are a retired businessman----suppose----just suppose----I were the owner of the company you worked for all those years and I came in on "Payday Friday" and said to you "I don't think BOB(thats you) should receive any pay for his(thats you) position!!!"

How much longer would you be willing to work for me???

I tell ya how long-----long enough for you to get home and then your wifey finds out you were told you should not receive any pay for your postion!!!!

Well, I would not be working for YOU.

For three years, I did serve as a chaplain for a community center. Two couples rotated the services and fellowship meal. My wife and I were one of the couples. We did not receive any monetary compensation, but the Holy Spirit blessed us greatly.

There are people on this Baptist Board who serve without monetary compensation. And they--and their spouses--prefer it to be that way.

One of the major growth areas for Christianity today are house churches.

It depends upon why you serve and why you attend.

Think about it.

...Bob

 

[BobinKy]

I think denominations are the affliction and devastation of churches in the U.S.

And let's not forget air conditioned buildings with padded pews and heated baptisteries with non moving water.

And there is all of that church debt for property and buildings.

...Bob

 

[sag38]

I also think pastors should not receive any pay for their position. [Now that's gonna be a popular one, Bob!]

....and patently un-Biblical too.

 

[rbell]

I also think pastors should not receive any pay for their position. [Now that's gonna be a popular one, Bob!]

....and patently un-Biblical too.

Yep.......

 

[Old Union Brother]

I also think pastors should not receive any pay for their position. [Now that's gonna be a popular one, Bob!]

....and patently un-Biblical too.

I know that this is not going to be popular but here goes

Who called us to preach? Was it God or man? God called me to preach and God pays me. I take no earthly pay for what God bids me to preach! If man pays me then that man just might expect me to preach what he bids me. I am accountable to God not man. Before you say it is unbiblical not to be paid consider these scriptures:

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:

Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Doesn't sound like the apostles took pay for their preaching.

Paul said in I Corinthians that he made no charge for the gospel of Christ.

1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

I'm no better than Paul. The blessings that God gives me pays me and I am content with my wages.

 

[Jim1999]

Then join the Plymouth Brethren!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Old Union Brother]

Then join the Plymouth Brethren!

Cheers,

Jim

I'll stay an Old Regular Baptist!!

 

[annsni]

I thank God that our church feels that a man deserves his wages because there would be no way we could be starting this new church with hubby working full time. However, even him working part time, he would be able to make more than he makes now (he's a computer engineer by trade and has worked for over 20 years in the audio industry, still doing some consulting work here and there for Studer and Audio Technica). So he actually is getting paid significantly less doing ministry than doing what he used to do but he's doing what God's called him to do so we're satisfied.

 

[Jerome]

Here's what one old Baptist took from scripture:

John Gill:
"Such feed the flock, who do their work aright; give themselves up to the ministry of the word, neglect all other services, at least as much as may be, that they may not be entangled with them, and be diverted by them, from their grand employment: to which they have devoted themselves, for the glory of God and the good of souls. Such give attendance to reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine ; and meditate on these things, and give themselves wholly to them, that their profiting may appear to all, and their usefulness to many."

 

[Gershom]

I know that this is not going to be popular but here goes

Who called us to preach? Was it God or man? God called me to preach and God pays me. I take no earthly pay for what God bids me to preach! If man pays me then that man just might expect me to preach what he bids me. I am accountable to God not man. Before you say it is unbiblical not to be paid consider these scriptures:

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:

Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Doesn't sound like the apostles took pay for their preaching.

Paul said in I Corinthians that he made no charge for the gospel of Christ.

1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

I'm no better than Paul. The blessings that God gives me pays me and I am content with my wages.

I believe the Bible teaches that those who labor in the Word ought to be compensated (Luke 10:7 & 1 Timothy 5:17-18). Now, the compensation could be discussed as to whether it be monetary or be it fried chicken and mashed p'taters...

 

[sag38]

What's unpopular with me is when a man, claiming to be a pastor, advocates, teaches, or preaches that which is un-Biblical.

 

[Gershom]

What's unpopular with me is when a man, claiming to be a pastor, advocates, teaches, or preaches that which is un-Biblical.

Ditto. Just remember to understand the difference between un-biblical and dis-similar interpretation.

 

[BobinKy]

I know that this is not going to be popular but here goes

Who called us to preach? Was it God or man? God called me to preach and God pays me. I take no earthly pay for what God bids me to preach! If man pays me then that man just might expect me to preach what he bids me. I am accountable to God not man. Before you say it is unbiblical not to be paid consider these scriptures:

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:

Luk 10:4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

Luk 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

Doesn't sound like the apostles took pay for their preaching.

Paul said in I Corinthians that he made no charge for the gospel of Christ.

1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

I'm no better than Paul. The blessings that God gives me pays me and I am content with my wages.

Thanks for posting the Biblical support.

...Bob

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul did not tell preachers and evangelists not to accept money. He said HE would not accept money.

And the passage in Luke 10 clearly says those who went out were to accept what their hosts gave them (10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

And, remember, Judas was the treasurer of the first church, Jesus' traveling band of disciples. He kept the purse. Where did they get the money they had?

They were not being paid for preaching. They received support while they were preaching.

And finally, Jesus instructed the Twelve not to take money on their journey. But he did not set this as a rule for every preacher or evangelist.

 

[sag38]

Thanks for posting the Biblical support.

...Bob


Yep, it's a text book example of Biblical support for an un-Biblical or as someone else put it, more politely put it, "dis-similar interpretation."

 

[BobinKy]

Thanks for posting the Biblical support.

...Bob


Yep, it's a text book example of Biblical support for an un-Biblical or as someone else put it, more politely put it, "dis-similar interpretation."

Yes, pastor pay is a sensitive issue. But an issue, nonetheless, that is open to Biblical interpretation, as Old Union Brother demonstrates.

We are talking about different approaches to ministry. At what point, according to the pastor pay model, should a Christian expect to receive compensation?

This discussion can really take in a lot of issues--such as definition of church, ministry, and evangelism. What activities are seen in the role of the pastor: leading, doing, equipping, preaching, witnessing, other activities? Furthermore, the discussion can ask: Should a pastor be paid for personal Bible study and prayer? Witnessing? And how is the 24/7 role of pastor different than the 24/7 role of Christian?

. . .

I think this discussion can take place on the Biblical interpretation level and the church tradition level. On the Biblical interpretation level, Old Union Brother demonstrates there is Biblical support for pastors not accepting pay; just as others in this thread demonstrate there is Biblical support for pastors accepting pay. Let us leave Biblical interpretation at that--different views.

Now let us talk about the church tradition level, which is actually a challenge to the traditional model of church and ministry. My point in making the comment I did is simply this: How might doing the great commission and Christian feeding, fellowship, and love change if pastor pay was taken out of the equation in certain situations?

Look at the doors that may open, before crying out "not Biblical, not Biblical."

I don't think some of us are saying we are coming to your church to start a ruckus about your pay.

Instead, some of us are saying pay is not a requirement for all forms of Christian growth. We are not asking you compensated pastors and church leaders to stop your paycheck. We are saying those of us with other streams of personal income want to advance the gospel without asking people to pay for it.

...Bob

 

[annsni]

Yes, pastor pay is a sensitive issue. But an issue, nonetheless, that is open to Biblical interpretation, as Old Union Brother demonstrates.

We are talking about different approaches to ministry. At what point, according to the pastor pay model, should a Christian expect to receive compensation?

This discussion can really take in a lot of issues--such as definition of church, ministry, and evangelism. What activities are seen in the role of the pastor: leading, doing, equipping, preaching, witnessing, other activities? Furthermore, the discussion can ask: Should a pastor be paid for personal Bible study and prayer? Witnessing? And how is the 24/7 role of pastor different than the 24/7 role of Christian?

. . .

I think this discussion can take place on the Biblical interpretation level and the church tradition level. On the Biblical interpretation level, Old Union Brother demonstrates there is Biblical support for pastors not accepting pay; just as others in this thread demonstrate there is Biblical support for pastors accepting pay. Let us leave Biblical interpretation at that--different views.

Now let us talk about the church tradition level, which is actually a challenge to the traditional model of church and ministry. My point in making the comment I did is simply this: How might doing the great commission and Christian feeding, fellowship, and love change if pastor pay was taken out of the equation in certain situations?

Look at the doors that may open, before crying out "not Biblical, not Biblical."

I don't think some of us are saying we are coming to your church to start a ruckus about your pay.

Instead, some of us are saying pay is not a requirement for all forms of Christian growth. We are not asking you compensated pastors and church leaders to stop your paycheck. We are saying those of us with other streams of personal income want to advance the gospel without asking people to pay for it.

...Bob

A pastor is to stay in study each week to be able to communicate God's Word each week in a way that is understandable, applicable and organized. That takes time. Most every other believer does not need to prepare an "oral teaching" each week and that takes about 10-20 hours usually. Additionally, he is expected to be on call for all sorts of needs of the congregation. A call to a congregant at 3 am from the ER does not expect that the person will rush to the ER but for the pastor, it does. A pastor also must make time for counseling, funerals, weddings - oftentimes not at his perfect convenience. He is also expected to manage the day to day runnings of the church from making sure that the building is opened and closed, heat is running at the right time, snow is removed if needed, the chairs are set up in the fellowship hall, etc. None of this is expected from the regular congregants unless these jobs are delegated - by the pastor - to another person.

So there are many things that a pastor is responsible for (not just having to do but be responsible for) that does not get done by others. If anything fails, who's fault is it? The pastor's.

 

[Jerome]

We are saying those of us with other streams of personal income want to advance the gospel without asking people to pay for it.

Christ didn't tell those disciples to "depend on other streams of personal income", in fact he told them the opposite:

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses

Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:

 

[BobinKy]

Christ didn't tell those disciples to "depend on other streams of personal income", in fact he told them the opposite:

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses

Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:​

Back to the Biblical interpretation level.

Well, the disciples probably had to do one or more of the following.

1. Return home.
   
2. Live upon hospitality.
   
3. Ask for support.
   
4. Work as they travel.
   
5. Depend upon provision from God.

Which reason(s) lay at the foundation of the above quotes from Jesus?

I am not sure. I can see benefit from all five.

Maybe Jesus had other reasons.

...Bob

 

[nodak]

I believe it is absolutely ok for a church to pay a pastor. I guess it is ok to expect him to shovel the snow, check on the heat, etc.

But in reality in the places I have lived, those sorts of things WERE done by the congregation, and not because the pastor told them to do so. Rather, it was the congregation's church and the pastor was hired to preach (small churches) or preach and pastor (larger churches.)

My husband was on call in his job 24/7 also. Didn't stop him from volunteering time to the church.

I'm old enough to remember when preachers were not coming out of seminaries preprogrammed. Rather, they knew their Bible well and if they thought they were called, they preached. If a church agreed, they got ordained and preached.

But we were smaller and rural and so most of the preacher's were bivo. On the down side, it was tough on them and we couldn't expect them comfort us for every hiccup, either.

But on the upside, they were not dependent on keeping us happy. And so, if they felt led to preach a passage and preach it hard, they did not have to worry about next month's car payment being effected.

And you know what? When livelihoods were not lost or enhanced by the content of the sermon, we got better sermons. We saw people genuinely saved, not just "added to the fellowship of the church."

My sorrowful, heartbroken belief is that we have taken the church and turned it into big business. Just as the money changers did. We saw their whole system replaced, and I suspect God is getting ready to flat out end "church as we know it" and use another method to get His gospel out.

And I would expect that He will once again use plain ordinary people to do it.