There's so true. And when the mission of the Church is feeding the sheep, instead of populating heaven, the preaching gets even better.
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The Growth of Non Denominational Churches
- Thread starter Thousand Hills
- Start date
There's so true. And when the mission of the Church is feeding the sheep, instead of populating heaven, the preaching gets even better.
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Robert Snow
New Member
I believe that is a matter of opinion.
As far as whether or not to pay a pastor, I don't see how a church could expect to get someone who will act as shepherd to a group of people and not pay him to do it. Now if all you want is someone who's only job is to preach two or three sermons a week, that might be different. Pastoring a church is much more than simply preparing sermons and delivering them to the congregation.
Should a pastor get paid? If he doesn’t how is he suppose to pay off all the student loans he took out to attend Bible college, Seminary, or grad school? Last time I checked—getting a higher education isn’t cheap. In fact, if you want a biblical education (on a college level) you normally have to go to a private university—which cost even more than normal college tuition. I do agree that there are some pastors who take advantage of their position & desire nothing but a high pay check---but I know several pastors who take massive pay cuts to serve the Lord, when they could make tens of thousands of dollars more a year if they worked a secular job.
Thank you, as always, for researching a sensitive issue. I located a copy of Hassells' book at Google Books.
The quote by Elder Gilbert Beebe falls toward the end of Chapter IX: Characteristics of the Apostolic Church (p. 269-326), Section 10: The Tenth Mark of the Apostolic Church (p. 313-316). Section 10 treats the question of ministerial salaries and includes a gambit of quotations from Primitive Baptist Elders. Here are a few quotes from the no-salary side of the issue. The next-to-last quote presents Elder Beebe's quote in context.
Jesus was not only a carpenter’s son, but, until He entered upon His ministry at thirty years of age, a carpenter Himself (Matthew xiii.55; Mark vi. 3; Luke iii.23); then He gave all His time and strength to the cause of God, and for three years ‘His humble wants were more than supplied by a few grateful disciples from Galilee, so that something was left for the benefit of the poor’ (Luke viii.3; Matthew xxvii. 55; Mark xv. 41; John xiii.29).
The ministry were not to turn the work of preaching into a common trade, stipulating beforehand for a regular and fixed salary, and like a worldly hireling, preaching for filthy lucre’s sake, and, like such a one, when the price is not paid, fleeing because he is a hireling (1 Peter v. 2; 1 Tim. iii. 3; Titus i. 7; John x. 13).
Still, let it never be forgotten by the true minister of the gospel that the inspired Apostle [Paul] who gave all these injunctions as to the temporal support of the preachers of the gospel testifies that he used none of these things, neither did he write these things that it should be so done unto him; that necessity was laid upon him, yea, woe was unto him he preached not the gospel; that his reward was in preaching the gospel of Christ without charge; that he had coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel; that his own hands had ministered to his necessities and to those that were with him; that he had labored night and day, because he would not be chargeable to any (1 Cor. ix. 15-18; Acts xx. 33, 34; 1 Thess. ii. 9); that his ministry had been passed in weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness, besides the daily internal care of all the churches; that he took pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake, for when he was weak, then he was strong; that he would very gladly spend and be spent for the people of God, though the more abundantly he loved them, the less he was loved (2 Cor. xi. 27, 28; xii. 10-15).
He [Paul] never collected money for himself, but for the poor Jewish Christians in Palestine, to whose sore need other Christians, in their poverty, contributed (Acts xi. 27-30; xxiv. 17; Rom. Xv 25, 26; 1 Cor. xvi. 1-3; Gal. ii. 10). Only as an exception did he receive gifts from the Philippian Christians, who were peculiarly dear to him (Phil. iv. 15-19).
[Elder Beebe's quote in context.]
A minister of Jesus should never be above laboring with his hands, and we are persuaded that Christ’s ministers are not; still, when it is in the power of a church to relieve their minister from the cares of this world, that he may devote his time principally or wholly to the work, it is right they should do so. But nothing is more apparent than that the world system of contracting with preachers to preach by the day or year for a stipulated amount of lucre presents a charm which allures thousands, whom God has not called to preach His gospel, from the bar and other pursuits into the ministry, thus, by the greediness of lucre, making merchandise of the gospel.
The voluntary system best corresponds with the spirit of the gospel, was practiced by the church for the first three centuries, and is the most advantageous to the kingdom of God. Legal enactments for the payment of tithes to the ministry, as to the priests among the Jews, are not met with in Christendom before the sixth century. Since that time the connection of Church and State has made the legal support of the ministry of the established church the custom in Europe; but the Constitution of the United States fortunately forbids such an establishment and support of any religion in this country. Yet regular stipulated ministerial salaries, though unknown in the apostolic church and in the first three centuries, are given in nearly all the religious denominations of the United States, but not among Old School, Primitive or Bible Baptists.
The ministry were not to turn the work of preaching into a common trade, stipulating beforehand for a regular and fixed salary, and like a worldly hireling, preaching for filthy lucre’s sake, and, like such a one, when the price is not paid, fleeing because he is a hireling (1 Peter v. 2; 1 Tim. iii. 3; Titus i. 7; John x. 13).
Still, let it never be forgotten by the true minister of the gospel that the inspired Apostle [Paul] who gave all these injunctions as to the temporal support of the preachers of the gospel testifies that he used none of these things, neither did he write these things that it should be so done unto him; that necessity was laid upon him, yea, woe was unto him he preached not the gospel; that his reward was in preaching the gospel of Christ without charge; that he had coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel; that his own hands had ministered to his necessities and to those that were with him; that he had labored night and day, because he would not be chargeable to any (1 Cor. ix. 15-18; Acts xx. 33, 34; 1 Thess. ii. 9); that his ministry had been passed in weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness, besides the daily internal care of all the churches; that he took pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake, for when he was weak, then he was strong; that he would very gladly spend and be spent for the people of God, though the more abundantly he loved them, the less he was loved (2 Cor. xi. 27, 28; xii. 10-15).
He [Paul] never collected money for himself, but for the poor Jewish Christians in Palestine, to whose sore need other Christians, in their poverty, contributed (Acts xi. 27-30; xxiv. 17; Rom. Xv 25, 26; 1 Cor. xvi. 1-3; Gal. ii. 10). Only as an exception did he receive gifts from the Philippian Christians, who were peculiarly dear to him (Phil. iv. 15-19).
[Elder Beebe's quote in context.]
A minister of Jesus should never be above laboring with his hands, and we are persuaded that Christ’s ministers are not; still, when it is in the power of a church to relieve their minister from the cares of this world, that he may devote his time principally or wholly to the work, it is right they should do so. But nothing is more apparent than that the world system of contracting with preachers to preach by the day or year for a stipulated amount of lucre presents a charm which allures thousands, whom God has not called to preach His gospel, from the bar and other pursuits into the ministry, thus, by the greediness of lucre, making merchandise of the gospel.
The voluntary system best corresponds with the spirit of the gospel, was practiced by the church for the first three centuries, and is the most advantageous to the kingdom of God. Legal enactments for the payment of tithes to the ministry, as to the priests among the Jews, are not met with in Christendom before the sixth century. Since that time the connection of Church and State has made the legal support of the ministry of the established church the custom in Europe; but the Constitution of the United States fortunately forbids such an establishment and support of any religion in this country. Yet regular stipulated ministerial salaries, though unknown in the apostolic church and in the first three centuries, are given in nearly all the religious denominations of the United States, but not among Old School, Primitive or Bible Baptists.
REFERENCE
Hassell, Elder Cushing Biggs. (1886). History of the Church of God, from the Creation to A.D. 1885; Including Especially the History of the Kehukee Primitive Baptist Association. [Revised and completed by Elder Sylvester Hassell.]. Middletown, Orange County, NY: Gilbert Beebe’s Sons, Publishers. Retrieved January 6, 2011, from http://books.google.com/books?id=zg...&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
...Bob
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Old Union Brother
New Member
Nice work Bob!!!!
More wise words from Elder Beebe:
"In regard to the meagre assistance given by some of our churches to their ministers, much of the fault lies with the preachers in withholding the proper admonition of the gospel; but a still greater fault is in the frequently preaching as though they thought it wicked for the ministers of Jesus to receive remuneration from their brethren for their time, service, etc."
"In regard to the meagre assistance given by some of our churches to their ministers, much of the fault lies with the preachers in withholding the proper admonition of the gospel; but a still greater fault is in the frequently preaching as though they thought it wicked for the ministers of Jesus to receive remuneration from their brethren for their time, service, etc."
And the Old Baptists don't either. It's totally up to the independent assemblies if they wish to pay a pastor a salary. I know PB Churches that do. I also know that the Old Baptists routinely compensate their preachers with cash on an individual basis (traditionally after the sermon when folks are up shaking hands).
Again, so true.
Alive in Christ
New Member
How did a thread about the growth of non-denominational churches morph into a thread on "should pastors get paid"? :laugh:
Old Union Brother
New Member
It happened about reply 25 when I went on a rant when some one said that an unpaid pastor was unbiblical. Sorry about that. It struck a nerve with me.
:tonofbricks:
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Well, at the least it hasn't morphed into Cal/arm but I believe it to be predestined to do so!
:laugh:
Actually it is my opinion that the number one cause for nondenominational churches is the amalgamation of theologies in the past 75-100 years in this country.
Used to, people ascribed to a theology- today people define themselves as "non _________" -which doesn't tell us what they are; it just tells us what they are NOT.
This is what nondenominational churches do.
This country USED to be thoroughly reformed.
As we have become more and more theologically cretinous we have, imho, become more and more Arminian or worse, more and more... nothing.
Leave it to me to press it toward the great debate! :laugh:
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Old Union Brother
New Member
Hey Luke I took credit for the initial mophing let me have the glory. LOL
Some do that...many do that. But by no means do all do that.
Kdo
I think your position is a bit too overgeneralized.