So, you two are smart enough to think about it, figure it out, and make the right decision to choose Christ, when soooo many others are not.
Lucky duckies you are to be born that smart.
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The Heart Of The Gospel
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
So, you two are smart enough to think about it, figure it out, and make the right decision to choose Christ, when soooo many others are not.
Lucky duckies you are to be born that smart.
No. You’re all mixed up. (Intentionally to make your argument sound better)
The rich young ruler went away sorrowful because he chose his possessions instead of following Jesus. If it was because he was not smart enough it would have said so.
Moses chose the Christ instead of riches. But in your opinion he was obviously proud for choosing.
Born the same way as everyone else. It is the Word of God that makes the simple to be wise. Psalm 19.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Multiple millions of people have been wise enough to freely trust in the only means of their salvation, faith in the risen Christ Jesus.
Unlike you KY were were not so foolish as to think that we were so special that God picked us out before creation.
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luke 18:18
And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 18:24
And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 18:26
Equates?
And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 18:24
And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? 18:26
Equates?
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I cannot remember how many times I and others have said that you are wrong when you say that those with Calvinistic beliefs imagine that they were so special that God picked them out before creation. I have never heard of anybody who believes that. The bible does talk about those who are saved having been chosen by God before the foundation of the world, but certainly not that God chose some sinners because they were "special". One verse in the hymn "When this Passing World is Done, by Robert Murray McCheyne, says:
"Chosen, not for good in me,
Wakened up from wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Saviour's side,
By the Spirit sanctified,
Teach me, Lord, on earth to show
By my love how much I owe."
I think that expresses what I mean well.
Likewise, I don’t know anyone who thinks that he is so smart to have figured it all out on his own and chose correctly. It’s not a very effective argument for either side.
Gents, I was postulating as to the reason WHY you all decided to choose Christ when sooo many others have not. You're placing all this emphasis on thinking and wisdom, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that you all might consider yourselves to be smarter than others.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
David reread what you wrote.
If you were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be in Him then logically there must have been something about you that would prompt God to choose you and not others. You must have been special even if you do not use the word.
But that is not what we are told is it?
We are chosen "in Christ", those that will freely trust in Him will be saved. God's invitation is absolutely sincere; it is addressed to every man, 'Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely' Rev_22:17.
Before creation the plan was set that the means of salvation for any man was personal trust/faith in the God of creation.
God’s sovereign choice from eternity was
1] to save those that would believe in Christ Jesus
2] that His people be holy and blameless before Him.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You make the fact that we took the time to evaluate the information presented and choose to follow Christ as if that were a bad thing.
Since I consider anyone that rejects the gospel message as rather foolish then it would be logical to say that those that trusted in Christ Jesus were actually smarter in doing so.
But as we know it is not a matter of the persons intelligence but rather the wisdom that they show in the choices they make.
All mankind has the information presented to them via creation and all are convicted of their sin so it falls back to the person as to how they will respond.
That's been my point all along. You feel you decided to choose Christ because you're smarter, or wiser, or less foolish, than others.
Is that the way you see it @Ben1445?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So what is you issue with that KY?
I understand that from the C/R view man has to be saved first then God gives him the faith so he can believe.
Do you agree with Loraine Boettner's comment?
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.
Or do you agree with what the bible says.
Rom 10:13 ..."whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Act 16:30 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,...."
How do you see the jailer? Was he smarter, or wiser, or less foolish, than others? Or did he just hear the gospel message and believe it and God via His grace saved him because he believed in the risen son.
The rich young ruler was perfectly intelligent enough. It is not a matter of intelligence as one could clearly tell by reading what we write on the BB. It doesn’t matter how intelligent you are.
What matters is that you know Christ. If that makes you smarter than everyone else, it is your qualifier, yes. But that is not what I am saying. It is what you apparently want me to say. You keep pushing for it.
I don't have an issue with that. I was right. You think you're smarter and/or wiser than those that don't get 'saved'. Never mind what the scripture actually says about it.
Wisdom crieth without;
she uttereth her voice in the streets:
She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates:
in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?
and the scorners delight in their scorning,
and fools hate knowledge?
Turn you at my reproof:
behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you,
I will make known my words unto you.
Proper BB answer: I won’t come because some kyredneck will think that I am too smart.
How did you come to Christ?
Did you get a letter informing you that you were the elect and that it was not your business to think about?
I’m genuinely confused about how you are saved without knowledge.
she uttereth her voice in the streets:
She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates:
in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?
and the scorners delight in their scorning,
and fools hate knowledge?
Turn you at my reproof:
behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you,
I will make known my words unto you.
Proper BB answer: I won’t come because some kyredneck will think that I am too smart.
How did you come to Christ?
Did you get a letter informing you that you were the elect and that it was not your business to think about?
I’m genuinely confused about how you are saved without knowledge.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Pray tell, what does the bible say about it KY.
You are right I do consider myself and anyone else that freely trusts in the risen son of God as smarter/ wiser than those that reject Him. Don't you?
Do you think those that trust in God are just foolish to do so?
You and many other C/R's seem to think that being wise and evaluating information is somehow wrong.
Why is that?
Does the ability to think and reason conflict with your man-made religion? It must as you rile against it so much.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
It would be logical, if God's word didn't tell us different. Ephesians 2, for example, which tells us that we were dead in trespasses and sins, but God made us alive. And Romans says something similar:
“7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Ro 5:7-8 NKJV)
Not, "Certain sinners were special, so God chose them."
So you seem to be saying (forgive and correct me if I have misunderstood you) that God's choice/election was dependent upon man's choice?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
All you have to do is keep reading David. Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
I cannot remember how many time those of the C/R view have used Eph 1:4 to claim they were chosen before creation. So even if you do not use the word "special" you are still making that claim.
Actually that is just what I am saying as the bible says that in clear text.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Act 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
God desires to save all mankind;
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
as you can see from scripture He will only save those that have trusted/believed in His risen son.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Man has to make the choice to either trust in or to reject God, God does not do it for them.
For someone to claim otherwise is to deny clear scripture.
KenH
Well-Known Member
The gospel of Christ is inclusive of "justification" and of "imputation of the Christ's perfect righteousness" and of "the basis of justification", and of "the scope of Christ's work", and of "Christ's atonement". Without these items, then one is proclaiming a false Jesus and a false gospel. To proclaim a false Jesus and a false gospel was condemned quite vehemently by the apostle Paul:
Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again,
If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Neither have I, though I have seen some who consider those who don't understand what Paul preached in the way of election, predestination, calling and so forth, to be less smart.
The fact is, it's not a matter of intelligence to read and believe the word of God;
It's a matter of faith, and believing what is written.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
Rather, the Lord very pointedly tells us that God is no respecter of persons...
Especially when it comes to who He saves and why.
In fact, He also makes it a point to tell us that He did not save most of those who we as men would think He would or should...
The rich, the powerful, etc.;
Those who have everything in this world, those who are wise in the ways of this world, those who seek Him by way of what seems right to us as men:
Works.
He as much as tells us here:
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence.
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).
" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:5-7 )
His way destroys the wisdom ( of their own hearts and minds ) of the "wise", and imposes His own wisdom and righteousness on the situation.
He saves according to His mercy alone, and not any work of righteouness.
Why was all this done?
So that no one of us may glory ( take pride ) in anything other than the Lord and His grace and mercy alone.
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