The Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem. .....the Church

[blessedwife318]

Auto correct only corrects misspelled words. Thrown was not misspelled, but that is not a regal, royal seat Christ will set upon, but means tossed.

Thrown will be the goats...into eternal hell.

Yeah I know but in this case it was predicted text that got me.

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[SovereignGrace]

Why? It seems to me this is an example of the Logical Fallacy of False Dilemma.

It does not have to be "A" or "B." I could be "A" or "B" or "C".

"Forever" could mean "1000 years + all of Eternity Future" (And, yes, I am aware that term is itself a fallacy but I know of no other way to express it).

Your second option displays the Logical Fallacy of the Undistributed Middle. Because forever does not mean 1000 years, does not mean 1000 years + eternity future does not mean forever.

Then how can 1,000 years mean a literal 1,000 years? How do we know eternity means forever if taking this approach?

 

[DHK]

You're out of control with your accusations. See, you cannot even read between the lines in human dialog let alone see that Scriptures use figurative language.



That you believe I LITERALLY meant satan owns cattle is ridiculous - but then again at the SAME EXACT TIME IT IS YOU WHO PREACHES HE OWNS THE WORLDS KINGDOMS!!!! LOL!!!!

Your absurdity and inconsistency is showing!

He created all things. He doesn't "own" all things. Look in Job. He allowed Job to have "control" over Job's life, and today he has given Satan control over this world. That is control, not ownership.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And John wasn't a literal John; Jesus wasn't a literal Jesus; the seven churches weren't seven literal churches. Does common sense count for anything? Apparently not.

That this is just plain stupid!!

You're a literalist. Those locusts have those literal attributes. Satan is literally a dragon with seven heads and ten horns. When Christ speaks, a literal sword comes forth. Remember, you're a literalist.

 

[Darrell C]

I never noticed that misspelling of throne. Good pick up. But 1,000 literal years does not an eternity make.

Well, have to take advantage of humor when you get the chance, right? I'm sure it was the result of auto text crrection.

In regards to the argument presented, it is a false argument. I know of no credible teacher of a premillennial view that tries to make the thousand years other than what it is, and all distinguish between the thousand year period and the Eternal State, both periods clearly taught in Revelation 20-22.

If the reasoning is that because the use of everlasting or eternal is applied in a pre-fulfilled context, that is not a good argument. The first example of why would be in Prophecy concerning Christ, where Prophecy spoke of an everlasting reign which was not fulfilled in His First Coming. Doesn't make the truth any less valid, it just shows the progressive nature of Prophecy.

Another example would be in Matthew 25, which can be reasonably seen to apply to both the Sheep and Goat Judgment as well as the culmination of judgment, where unbelievers go into everlasting punishment, without actually going into Hell (but rather Hades, from whence they are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne).

We have everlasting life, yet we are still in unredeemed flesh. Does that mean that everlasting life only begins at glorification, when we can say that we have everlasting life that consists both of body and spirit?

Another false argument presented sometimes is that the passage teaches Christ will only reign one thousand years if we take a literal meaning.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

So 1,000 literal years = forever? Who'd thunk it?

Not me, at least not from Revelation 20. It doesn't teach that.

 

[SovereignGrace]

He created all things. He doesn't "own" all things. Look in Job. He allowed Job to have "control" over Job's life, and today he has given Satan control over this world. That is control, not ownership.

He didn't have control over Job's life...God did. He gave satan limits to him afflicting Job. God plainly told him he could not take Job's life.

Please quit giving Satan too much credit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not me, at least not from Revelation 20. It doesn't teach that.

Christ will set on David's throne forever?

Yes or no?

 

[Darrell C]

Satan is literally a dragon with seven heads and ten horns.

I have often spoken about the use of figurative language and clearly stated that while he is not a literal dragon, he is a literal entity, so it is a little unfair to present this as though what you present is the belief that those of us who are called literalists hold to.

You are referring to hyper literalism, which would indeed see Satan in the exact form. I am against that type of interpretive approach as well.

But, if we continue on Revelation defines the beast and the heads, for instance. So we look to that Biblical definition of what is in view, and in doing so take from Revelation the meaning which is why the figurative language is used.


God bless.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well, have to take advantage of humor when you get the chance, right? I'm sure it was the result of auto text crrection.

In regards to the argument presented, it is a false argument. I know of no credible teacher of a premillennial view that tries to make the thousand years other than what it is, and all distinguish between the thousand year period and the Eternal State, both periods clearly taught in Revelation 20-22.

If the reasoning is that because the use of everlasting or eternal is applied in a pre-fulfilled context, that is not a good argument. The first example of why would be in Prophecy concerning Christ, where Prophecy spoke of an everlasting reign which was not fulfilled in His First Coming. Doesn't make the truth any less valid, it just shows the progressive nature of Prophecy.

Another example would be in Matthew 25, which can be reasonably seen to apply to both the Sheep and Goat Judgment as well as the culmination of judgment, where unbelievers go into everlasting punishment, without actually going into Hell (but rather Hades, from whence they are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne).

We have everlasting life, yet we are still in unredeemed flesh. Does that mean that everlasting life only begins at glorification, when we can say that we have everlasting life that consists both of body and spirit?

Another false argument presented sometimes is that the passage teaches Christ will only reign one thousand years if we take a literal meaning.


God bless.

Would you fall under the historic premill group?

 

[blessedwife318]

He created all things. He doesn't "own" all things. Look in Job. He allowed Job to have "control" over Job's life, and today he has given Satan control over this world. That is control, not ownership.

bold mine

Are You really are saying that even though God created all things, He doesn't own all things?!?!?!

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[DHK]

Could you imagine in church bulletin:

'Alright folks, this Sunday we will be practicing plucking out our eyes and cutting off our hands. We do believe in the literal interpretation'!

What a let down that would be!

That was one of the reasons, the famed atheist, Madeline O'hare attacked the Bible and tried to get it banned from public schools--because of such asinine reasoning like yours. She did use that argument.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I have often spoken about the use of figurative language and clearly stated that while he is not a literal dragon, he is a literal entity, so it is a little unfair to present this as though what you present is the belief that those of us who are called literalists hold to.

You are referring to hyper literalism, which would indeed see Satan in the exact form. I am against that type of interpretive approach as well.

But, if we continue on Revelation defines the beast and the heads, for instance. So we look to that Biblical definition of what is in view, and in doing so take from Revelation the meaning which is why the figurative language is used.


God bless.

That's my point. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is chocked full of allegorical, figurative language. And then when 1,000 years is mentioned, that is literal?

 

[SovereignGrace]

bold mine

Are You really are saying that even though God created all things, He doesn't own all things?!?!?!

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Pretty much.

 

[blessedwife318]

Pretty much.

That is such a tragic state of affairs.

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[TCassidy]

Then how can 1,000 years mean a literal 1,000 years? How do we know eternity means forever if taking this approach?

We know that 1000 years means 1000 years because that is what 1000 years means.

And we know eternity means forever because that is what eternity means.

 

[Darrell C]

He didn't have control over Job's life...God did. He gave satan limits to him afflicting Job. God plainly told him he could not take Job's life.

Please quit giving Satan too much credit.

He did have control, you admit that in your own statement. And that control was under the Sovereignty of God. Same thing is true today. That there were limits remains true as well. This is true for both the unbeliever and the believer, for we are warned that Satan is walking to and fro as a lion, seeking those he might destroy. We have to resist Satan, right?


God bless.

 

[DHK]

And he will not give you a post to debate this. You have him by the short hairs now.

Have you ever considered that to be an atheist, the a-theist first must admit "theism" that is, the existence of God.
To be an a-millennialist, one must first admit there is a Millennium. Funny thing about that.
You do agree then that by very definition, there is a one thousand year reign. You just (by definition) deny it.

 

[Darrell C]

That's my point. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is chocked full of allegorical, figurative language. And then when 1,000 years is mentioned, that is literal?

Could you present an "allegory" in Revelation?

I haven't found one in the entire Bible yet.

Have to get going, hope all have a blessed day.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

Then how can 1,000 years mean a literal 1,000 years? How do we know eternity means forever if taking this approach?

Saying Christ will rule and reign for 1000 years does not preclude Him from ruling and reigning for all eternity.

1000 years means 1000 years. Just as eternity means forever.

I was a Baptist pastor for 40 years. Because I am retired does not mean I am no longer a Baptist. One does not preclude the other.