The Heresy of Cessaitionism

[Deadworm]

This video refutes 5 of the standard arguments for cessationism:

youtube critique of cessationism - Search Videos

www.bing.com

This thread will then elaborate on the grounds for continationism, a doctrine that is vital for acknowledging and promoting the work of the Holy Spirit in our era.

 

[Cathode]

Miracles are real and they happen all the time today.

I can’t recount all the things that have happened just in my life. I’ve had to be reminded by so many witnesses.

It’s not that I don’t care to remember, it’s that I’m brought to focus on the next thing I am required to do.

Sure some things stand out, the help of angels, the healings and being saved from great danger. But there are so many things in between, Jesus helps all the time, circumstances are totally orchestrated by Him.

 

[atpollard]

I am a contunuationist, but I find it offensive to call other CHRISTIANS "heretics" over THIS issue!

Which ECUMENICAL CREED defining ORTHODOXY have they rejected?
What scripture are they denying that is so egregious that we cannot believe that they are saved and must separate from them as we would one that would deny Christ?

 

[Cathode]

I am a contunuationist, but I find it offensive to call other CHRISTIANS "heretics" over THIS issue!

Which ECUMENICAL CREED defining ORTHODOXY have they rejected?
What scripture are they denying that is so egregious that we cannot believe that they are saved and must separate from them as we would one that would deny Christ?

It is heresy because it is a lie.

The miraculous is happening now.

In whose interest is it to deny God’s power is operating today?

It is blindness and ingratitude that has increased, not the cessation of God’s Grace and bounty being expressed.

Many do not even recognise the gifts they have by God’s Grace, they do not use them and they discard them like toys they lost interest in.

This is the demoralisation of the dark, that you are powerless and have no gifts or mission. The gifts are given for your mission, the gifts are not for you, they are for the Kingdom.

“Jesus asked his disciples, "When I sent you out without a moneybag or a traveling bag or sandals, did you need anything?" "No!" they answered.”

Carry out your mission, and the gifts will manifest themselves.

You will be given power, and the providence of The Lord will go before you.

 

[JesusFan]

It is heresy because it is a lie.

The miraculous is happening now.

In whose interest is it to deny God’s power is operating today?

It is blindness and ingratitude that has increased, not the cessation of God’s Grace and bounty being expressed.

Many do not even recognise the gifts they have by God’s Grace, they do not use them and they discard them like toys they lost interest in.

This is the demoralisation of the dark, that you are powerless and have no gifts or mission. The gifts are given for your mission, the gifts are not for you, they are for the Kingdom.

“Jesus asked his disciples, "When I sent you out without a moneybag or a traveling bag or sandals, did you need anything?" "No!" they answered.”

Carry out your mission, and the gifts will manifest themselves.

You will be given power, and the providence of The Lord will go before you.

we do NOT deny that God no longer can save, heal, do miracles, we DO deny though that any gifted as the Apostles were to be able to do such, and deny that we have modern dasy Apostles and Prophets, as God closed off the inspired Revelation Canon when John died

 

[Cathode]

we do NOT deny that God no longer can save, heal, do miracles, we DO deny though that any gifted as the Apostles were to be able to do such, and deny that we have modern dasy Apostles and Prophets, as God closed off the inspired Revelation Canon when John died

Public revelation has ceased, but God’s Grace and power hasn’t.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Isaiah 8:20. 'To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.’

First of all, I’d like to explain what I mean by the word, Cessationism.
1. I do not believe that all miracles have ceased today. Every time someone is saved it is a miracle of God’s power and grace, and He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. However, I do not believe that there are ‘workers of miracles’ (1 Cor. 12:10) today.

2. I believe that God sometimes heals today according to His will. I have some experience of this which I am happy to relate if anyone is interested. I think many people have testimonies of God healing in answer to prayer. However, I do not believe that there are miraculous ‘gifts of healing’ (1 Cor. 12:9) today.

3. I believe in prophetic ministry today. I believe that preaching is prophetic in that it ‘tells forth’ the words of God. What I do not believe remains today is the gift of ‘foretelling’- seeing the future. Also, I do not believe that anyone can bind the conscience of a Christian by anything outside the Bible.

What I understand as Cessationism is the belief that certain gifts which were given to the church were never intended to be continued indefinitely but were for the infancy of the Church. A parallel to this is God’s dealings with Israel in the wilderness. They received miraculous supplies of manna, water and quail; their feet did not swell and their shoes did not wear out. The day they crossed into Canaan, the manna ceased (Joshua 5:12) and the other items are not mentioned again, so I assume they did as well. I believe that the same principle applies in the N.T. Certain gifts were supplied to the infant church which were discontinued when it reached maturity.

If we look at the list of gifts listed in Eph 4:11, we see that the first gift is Apostles. I believe that there are no Apostles today. If you agree with me then you are a Cessationist because you agree that at least one of the gifts has now ceased. The qualifications for an apostle are listed in Acts 1:22, and one of them is that he must have seen the risen Christ. Therefore Paul asks, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor 9:1). Later he describes himself as the last apostle (1 Cor 15:8). Therefore we conclude that there are no apostles today- not even C. J. Mahaney.

Having established the principle of Cessationism- that not all the gifts were intended to be permanent- we can move on to the second gift, that of prophets. We need to consider Ephesians 2:20 where Paul describes Christians as, ‘having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets….’ How many foundations does a building need? Surely only one? And when is the foundation put in place? At the very beginning, of course. The foundation of God’s Church is in place, in the doctrine of the apostles and prophets found in the Holy Scriptures. We need no prophets now, for we have ‘The prophetic word confirmed’ (2 Peter 1:19) in the Bible.

[Taken from my blog post Cessationism. Have the Sign Gifts Ceased? Read more there]

 

[Van]

Not sure what this thread is claiming, as the video might be more than an hour long.

However, comma, Cessationism as I understand the term, says the Signs and Wonders Gifts have ceased, which refers to humans not God, and says humans do not speak in unknown to them foreign languages or bring people back to life, like Peter and Paul.

 

[JesusFan]

Isaiah 8:20. 'To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.’

First of all, I’d like to explain what I mean by the word, Cessationism.
1. I do not believe that all miracles have ceased today. Every time someone is saved it is a miracle of God’s power and grace, and He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. However, I do not believe that there are ‘workers of miracles’ (1 Cor. 12:10) today.

2. I believe that God sometimes heals today according to His will. I have some experience of this which I am happy to relate if anyone is interested. I think many people have testimonies of God healing in answer to prayer. However, I do not believe that there are miraculous ‘gifts of healing’ (1 Cor. 12:9) today.

3. I believe in prophetic ministry today. I believe that preaching is prophetic in that it ‘tells forth’ the words of God. What I do not believe remains today is the gift of ‘foretelling’- seeing the future. Also, I do not believe that anyone can bind the conscience of a Christian by anything outside the Bible.

What I understand as Cessationism is the belief that certain gifts which were given to the church were never intended to be continued indefinitely but were for the infancy of the Church. A parallel to this is God’s dealings with Israel in the wilderness. They received miraculous supplies of manna, water and quail; their feet did not swell and their shoes did not wear out. The day they crossed into Canaan, the manna ceased (Joshua 5:12) and the other items are not mentioned again, so I assume they did as well. I believe that the same principle applies in the N.T. Certain gifts were supplied to the infant church which were discontinued when it reached maturity.

If we look at the list of gifts listed in Eph 4:11, we see that the first gift is Apostles. I believe that there are no Apostles today. If you agree with me then you are a Cessationist because you agree that at least one of the gifts has now ceased. The qualifications for an apostle are listed in Acts 1:22, and one of them is that he must have seen the risen Christ. Therefore Paul asks, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor 9:1). Later he describes himself as the last apostle (1 Cor 15:8). Therefore we conclude that there are no apostles today- not even C. J. Mahaney.

Having established the principle of Cessationism- that not all the gifts were intended to be permanent- we can move on to the second gift, that of prophets. We need to consider Ephesians 2:20 where Paul describes Christians as, ‘having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets….’ How many foundations does a building need? Surely only one? And when is the foundation put in place? At the very beginning, of course. The foundation of God’s Church is in place, in the doctrine of the apostles and prophets found in the Holy Scriptures. We need no prophets now, for we have ‘The prophetic word confirmed’ (2 Peter 1:19) in the Bible.

[Taken from my blog post Cessationism. Have the Sign Gifts Ceased? Read more there]

The only true continualists would be those holding to heresy of 5 fold ministries, sign gifts fully operational, and modern day prophets and apostles, basically word of faith heretics

 

[JesusFan]

Not sure what this thread is claiming, as the video might be more than an hour long.

However, comma, Cessationism as I understand the term, says the Signs and Wonders Gifts have ceased, which refers to humans not God, and says humans do not speak in unknown to them foreign languages or bring people back to life, like Peter and Paul.

and also deny any offices for prophets or apostles still in operation currently

 

[Van]

The term "Prophet" is a little tricky. It it is used to say a human speaks for God, as an inspired author, then that "gift" has ceased, but if the term is used to refer to someone who accurately conveys God's word, such as a teacher or witness, then yes, people are still receiving that "gift."
But I agree, we have no "eyewitnesses" of the risen Christ, thus we have evangelists and teachers, not Apostles with a capital A.

 

[Deacon]

Isaiah 8:20. 'To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.’

First of all, I’d like to explain what I mean by the word, Cessationism.
1. I do not believe that all miracles have ceased today. Every time someone is saved it is a miracle of God’s power and grace, and He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. However, I do not believe that there are ‘workers of miracles’ (1 Cor. 12:10) today.

2. I believe that God sometimes heals today according to His will. I have some experience of this which I am happy to relate if anyone is interested. I think many people have testimonies of God healing in answer to prayer. However, I do not believe that there are miraculous ‘gifts of healing’ (1 Cor. 12:9) today.

3. I believe in prophetic ministry today. I believe that preaching is prophetic in that it ‘tells forth’ the words of God. What I do not believe remains today is the gift of ‘foretelling’- seeing the future. Also, I do not believe that anyone can bind the conscience of a Christian by anything outside the Bible.

[snip]

[Taken from my blog post Cessationism. Have the Sign Gifts Ceased? Read more there]

I'll admit to not watching the OP video.
I like how Martin Marprelate summarized his definition of Cessationism...and agree with much of what he posted.
I don't think that anyone thinks that God doesn't answer prayers.

I'd put myself in what some call a "soft cessationaist" position.
I'm not totally convinced by the Scriptural evidence for the cessation of special gifts...but I think that their presence is very rare.

Martin rhetorically asked, "How many foundations does a building need? -- This question leads to the position I take.
The church (and the gospel) does not have a witness in some parts of the world.
>Yet there are reports of miraculous interventions in third world countries, such places where the church has little to no influence.

> I'm open to the gifts but quite cautious
> I'm concerned that there are many counterfeits present

Rob

 

[Cathode]

Isaiah 8:20. 'To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.’

First of all, I’d like to explain what I mean by the word, Cessationism.
1. I do not believe that all miracles have ceased today. Every time someone is saved it is a miracle of God’s power and grace, and He is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. However, I do not believe that there are ‘workers of miracles’ (1 Cor. 12:10) today.

2. I believe that God sometimes heals today according to His will. I have some experience of this which I am happy to relate if anyone is interested. I think many people have testimonies of God healing in answer to prayer. However, I do not believe that there are miraculous ‘gifts of healing’ (1 Cor. 12:9) today.

3. I believe in prophetic ministry today. I believe that preaching is prophetic in that it ‘tells forth’ the words of God. What I do not believe remains today is the gift of ‘foretelling’- seeing the future. Also, I do not believe that anyone can bind the conscience of a Christian by anything outside the Bible.

What I understand as Cessationism is the belief that certain gifts which were given to the church were never intended to be continued indefinitely but were for the infancy of the Church. A parallel to this is God’s dealings with Israel in the wilderness. They received miraculous supplies of manna, water and quail; their feet did not swell and their shoes did not wear out. The day they crossed into Canaan, the manna ceased (Joshua 5:12) and the other items are not mentioned again, so I assume they did as well. I believe that the same principle applies in the N.T. Certain gifts were supplied to the infant church which were discontinued when it reached maturity.

If we look at the list of gifts listed in Eph 4:11, we see that the first gift is Apostles. I believe that there are no Apostles today. If you agree with me then you are a Cessationist because you agree that at least one of the gifts has now ceased. The qualifications for an apostle are listed in Acts 1:22, and one of them is that he must have seen the risen Christ. Therefore Paul asks, “Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” (1 Cor 9:1). Later he describes himself as the last apostle (1 Cor 15:8). Therefore we conclude that there are no apostles today- not even C. J. Mahaney.

Having established the principle of Cessationism- that not all the gifts were intended to be permanent- we can move on to the second gift, that of prophets. We need to consider Ephesians 2:20 where Paul describes Christians as, ‘having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets….’ How many foundations does a building need? Surely only one? And when is the foundation put in place? At the very beginning, of course. The foundation of God’s Church is in place, in the doctrine of the apostles and prophets found in the Holy Scriptures. We need no prophets now, for we have ‘The prophetic word confirmed’ (2 Peter 1:19) in the Bible.

[Taken from my blog post Cessationism. Have the Sign Gifts Ceased? Read more there]

I'll admit to not watching the OP video.
I like how Martin Marprelate summarized his definition of Cessationism...and agree with much of what he posted.
I don't think that anyone thinks that God doesn't answer prayers.

I'd put myself in what some call a "soft cessationaist" position.
I'm not totally convinced by the Scriptural evidence for the cessation of special gifts...but I think that their presence is very rare.

Martin rhetorically asked, "How many foundations does a building need? -- This question leads to the position I take.
The church (and the gospel) does not have a witness in some parts of the world.
>Yet there are reports of miraculous interventions in third world countries, such places where the church has little to no influence.

> I'm open to the gifts but quite cautious
> I'm concerned that there are many counterfeits present

Rob

The main problem is people are living a desupernaturalised christianity.

There is no joyful expectation of miraculous results to prayer, in their heart the idea is fantasy.
With this as the starting point, it’s no wonder few go out in power.

I’ve said this before. If you go out having handed over total sovereignty to Jesus, you will have All the gifts, because Jesus is the one who ministers through you. He acts in His way and His timing.

Just be open to His direction and His action.

I’m just a lay person nobody gardener, and I have seen wonders in street ministry.
Jesus does the work.

Get it out of your heads that it’s impossible.

If we bring Jesus, we bring everything, Jesus has all the gifts.

We are just the dumb donkeys carrying Jesus to others.

 

[Deadworm]

I challenge cessationist responders to actually watch the OP's video refutation of 5 central points of standard cessationism
and, if possible, try to defend cessationism against these decisive arugments.

 

[JesusFan]

I challenge cessationist responders to actually watch the OP's video refutation of 5 central points of standard cessationism
and, if possible, try to defend cessationism against these decisive arugments.

Canon is officially closed, no extra prophets or apostles were given to the Church by God, except so called false ones like Smith, Russell, and White!

 

[JesusFan]

The main problem is people are living a desupernaturalised christianity.

There is no joyful expectation of miraculous results to prayer, in their heart the idea is fantasy.
With this as the starting point, it’s no wonder few go out in power.

I’ve said this before. If you go out having handed over total sovereignty to Jesus, you will have All the gifts, because Jesus is the one who ministers through you. He acts in His way and His timing.

Just be open to His direction and His action.

I’m just a lay person nobody gardener, and I have seen wonders in street ministry.
Jesus does the work.

Get it out of your heads that it’s impossible.

If we bring Jesus, we bring everything, Jesus has all the gifts.

We are just the dumb donkeys carrying Jesus to others.

Do you equate the true Gospel as one with signs and wonders as the norm?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I challenge cessationist responders to actually watch the OP's video refutation of 5 central points of standard cessationism
and, if possible, try to defend cessationism against these decisive arugments.

The video is over an hour! I'd sooner read War and Peace! You summarize these decisive 'arugments' and if you don't take too long about it, I'll read what you write.

Yet there are reports of miraculous interventions in third world countries, such places where the church has little to no influence.

Indeed, but we are told to 'test all things.' Most of these alleged miracles take place in the Democratic Republic of Congo or somewhere like that.

The main problem is people are living a desupernaturalised christianity.

There is no joyful expectation of miraculous results to prayer, in their heart the idea is fantasy.
With this as the starting point, it’s no wonder few go out in power.

This is because you have no Gospel. There is no greater miracle than someone actually coming to salvation. Being healed is not being saved. If you want a worthwhile ministry, why don't you go round to all the recipients of these miracles and say, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you" (John 5:14)?

Miraculous healings in the N.T. were very much the domain of the apostles, and maybe one or two of the Apostolic Band. Notice how Luke separates the apostles from the other Christians in regard to miracles. Acts 2:43. ‘Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.’ Acts 4:32-33. ‘Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul…….and with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection.’ Act s 5:12. ‘And through the hands of the Apostles, many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch.’ Paul wrote (2 Cor. 12:12), ‘Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs, wonders and mighty deeds.’ If people other than apostles could do miraculous healings, then Paul’s words are meaningless. We deduce, therefore, that miracles were restricted to the apostles (and possibly to one or two of those associated with them) and that they therefore passed away with them. This does not mean that God does not heal today. James 5:14-15, properly understood, still applies today, but there are no ‘anointed healers’ today.

 

[Cathode]

Do you equate the true Gospel as one with signs and wonders as the norm?

I equate Jesus as one with signs and wonders as the norm.

This is the thing.

Just Jesus Presence in you drives darkness away, causes people to manifest and be delivered.

If you bring you to street ministry you aren’t bringing anything. Don’t go out there on your own.

“ Without me you can do nothing “

Divest self and put on Jesus.

Deny self, hand over your human will and ask for His Will to Reign in you.

May your eyes be my eyes, may your thoughts be my thoughts, may our hearts beat as one.

“That they all shall be one, just as you, my Father, are in me, and I am in you, so that they also shall be one in us. “

People don’t even realise the Unity Jesus desires with us.

Self is the problem, our human will, most believers still hold onto it.

It’s like training wheels on your bike when you were a kid, eventually by constantly renouncing your will you will drive out self, making full space for Jesus.

“ It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me “

Self is not our natural state, living in Gods Will is our natural state. It returns man to the first order of Creation like before the fall, but only in Jesus as the new Adam. For this we have prayed.

“ Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven “

Can you imagine God’s Will being done on Earth as it is in Heaven, this is the Kingdom coming, and it is coming.

 

[JesusFan]

I equate Jesus as one with signs and wonders as the norm.

This is the thing.

Just Jesus Presence in you drives darkness away, causes people to manifest and be delivered.

If you bring you to street ministry you aren’t bringing anything. Don’t go out there on your own.

“ Without me you can do nothing “

Divest self and put on Jesus.

Deny self, hand over your human will and ask for His Will to Reign in you.

May your eyes be my eyes, may your thoughts be my thoughts, may our hearts beat as one.

“That they all shall be one, just as you, my Father, are in me, and I am in you, so that they also shall be one in us. “

People don’t even realise the Unity Jesus desires with us.

Self is the problem, our human will, most believers still hold onto it.

It’s like training wheels on your bike when you were a kid, eventually by constantly renouncing your will you will drive out self, making full space for Jesus.

“ It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me “

Self is not our natural state, living in Gods Will is our natural state. It returns man to the first order of Creation like before the fall, but only in Jesus as the new Adam. For this we have prayed.

“ Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven “

Can you imagine God’s Will being done on Earth as it is in Heaven, this is the Kingdom coming, and it is coming.

You sound here as if you are part of the heretical so called Word of faith cult

 

[Cathode]

The video is over an hour! I'd sooner read War and Peace! You summarize these decisive 'arugments' and if you don't take too long about it, I'll read what you write.

Indeed, but we are told to 'test all things.' Most of these alleged miracles take place in the Democratic Republic of Congo or somewhere like that.

This is because you have no Gospel. There is no greater miracle than someone actually coming to salvation. Being healed is not being saved. If you want a worthwhile ministry, why don't you go round to all the recipients of these miracles and say, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you" (John 5:14)?

Miraculous healings in the N.T. were very much the domain of the apostles, and maybe one or two of the Apostolic Band. Notice how Luke separates the apostles from the other Christians in regard to miracles. Acts 2:43. ‘Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.’ Acts 4:32-33. ‘Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul…….and with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection.’ Act s 5:12. ‘And through the hands of the Apostles, many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch.’ Paul wrote (2 Cor. 12:12), ‘Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs, wonders and mighty deeds.’ If people other than apostles could do miraculous healings, then Paul’s words are meaningless. We deduce, therefore, that miracles were restricted to the apostles (and possibly to one or two of those associated with them) and that they therefore passed away with them. This does not mean that God does not heal today. James 5:14-15, properly understood, still applies today, but there are no ‘anointed healers’ today.

For you this is all theoretical, I have lived experience.

People did not cease to be sick, possessed, or in need of conversion after the Apostles died.

Many people are just as ignorant today as the first hearers of the Gospel were. Many have needed an accompanying healing to come to belief.

I have prayed over people for healing, end stage lung cancer, healed instantly. Drug addictions healed instantly.
These people have changed their lives and come to Christ.

Many others counselled by Jesus through us, I do not even recall many times what was said, that was between Jesus and that person.

Jesus does the healing, delivering and counselling of souls.

I don’t even preach, I leave what must be said to Jesus. All circumstance is in Jesus hands as well, can’t tell you how many times guidance and providence has gone before us.