The hidden dangers of Calvinism

[Jim1999]

I think the misapplication of calvinism is what is so bad, and not calvinism in and of itself.

Theology is an attempt to understand the mind of God, as it were, and not each verse we read in isolation. For instance, man thinks he is making a decision when in fact God has made the decision in eternity and for His own purpose. We see it in our own minds and hence we have made a decision.

I look as a man and read, "Whosoever will may come," my choice. God says, "Elect from before the foundation of the world." God's choice. Both actions work together..man's view..God's truth!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

1 Timothy 2:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

We all know that all means everyone right not just believers

Though I agree, it is not necessarily so. There are legitimate explanations of that verse that do not entail your understanding. However, I think God's moral will is that all men be saved. That is not his decreed will however.

but because of God's word only believers will be saved.

Yes. The big question that seems to get ignored in these discussions is why some believe and others do not.

Simple put God included with those who were chosen before the foundation of the world those who haved heared the Gospel of thier salvation having believed.

This is still unintelligible.

 

[psalms109:31]

Leaning on thier own understanding

I can't make it any clearing than that.

See people want to worry about things they have no need to understand. Why try to lean on our own understand than to just believe that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

I believe we have a lot of hard soil to toil and prepare for God's word. It will take years off hard work and doing what God's word says and believing what it says even if we can't understand it.We need to get off our mountain top and go into the valley where the people are.

I'm sorry why men our so hard today, but it is not God's fault but our own because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. They do not come not because of God don't want them to, but because of thier own self.

He wanted to gather them like a hen gathers her chicks, but it isn't God who wasn't willing but them.

 

[Salamander]

God's decreed will is that He saves all that come unto Him by Jesus.

His moral will includes everyone who will come as well as all those who do not come to Jesus.

God knows who will be saved, yet the call goes out to all who will believe and be saved. His choice is to save all who will come, yet he never chose any to be saved while others he chose them to never be saved. If the adverse to the will of God were true, God could not be Just.

He could not be Just due to the implications of that very word. To be Just one has to have all accusations of any negative attirbutes brought to nothing.

If God chose some to be lost, He would still be Soveriegn, and contrarywise. Yet His being Just is that none could ever bring accusation against God in that he refused anyone the chance to be saved that he created.

Man must be saved according to God's will that he would have all men to be saved, it's just that all men won't choose Jesus. This is contrary to God's Decree!:godisgood:

 

[Rippon]

Sal,what is Election?It's the choosing of some -- and the bypassing of others.The Lord has not chosen everyone for salvation.

It would be perfectly just of God to condemn everyone to everlasting perdition.Don't confuse His justice with His mercy.He has mercy on those whom He chooses to have mercy -- He hardens the rest.

God doesn't merely know who will be saved -- He determined the when where and how of their salvation.The Lord is the Author and Finisher of our faith.He gives faith to His elect.The Lord secures the salvation of His elect in time.Before the creation of the world He declared who would be His.He wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life in eternity past.

 

[gb93433]

Sal,what is Election?It's the choosing of some -- and the bypassing of others.The Lord has not chosen everyone for salvation.

Jesus explained it well in the parable found in


Mt. 22:1-14 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast." ' "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. "Then he said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[stilllearning]

For me, this whole issue has to do with God’s Holiness.

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Revelation 20:15
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

This verse, records when God will cast all the unsaved that ever lived, in the lake of fire to burn forever.
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Revelation 20:12
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

Here, a Righteous and Holy God, judges them.

And this verse, tells us how God will judge all those who are about to be cast into the lake of fire.

-The reason for the great white throne judgement, is to condemn these people for rejecting Christ;-

(If they never had an opportunity to accept Christ, than they can’t be guilty of rejecting Him.)

 

[Rippon]

-The reason for the great white throne judgement, is to condemn these people for rejecting Christ;-

(If they never had an opportunity to accept Christ, than they can’t be guilty of rejecting Him.)

Many have never heard of Christ -- they have never heard the Gospel or even the Law(even though the requirements of the law are written on their hearts).They will still be condemned because of their sin.They will have no excuse.

 

[russell55]

And this verse, tells us how God will judge all those who are about to be cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, it does.

-The reason for the great white throne judgement, is to condemn these people for rejecting Christ;-

Really? This verse tells us exactly what the standard is by which people are judged and it doesn't mention rejection of Christ.

(If they never had an opportunity to accept Christ, than they can’t be guilty of rejecting Him.)

Right. But they can still be guilty according to the standard by which this verse says the judgment is made.

 

[gb93433]

I look as a man and read, "Whosoever will may come," my choice. God says, "Elect from before the foundation of the world." God's choice. Both actions work together..man's view..God's truth!

Is that not all God's choice? When we look at things from a Jewish point of view it is that God created everything including evil--His choice. From a Greek point of view that is not the case. The Jews included everything into one circle with God. God being included everything. We tend to follow a Greek philosophy and compartmentalize everything with each compartment separate from each other.

 

[psalms109:31]

scripture

If someone never hears the Gospel, it is our fault not God's for God sent us out with the message of Good News

Matthew 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Ezekiel 3:
18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

James 5:
17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3:
1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Jarthur001

We seem to be getting closer to an understanding.

You said.....

“Therefore election we are told on verse 11 is not based on what we do....or what we think. Its not based on anything in us....good or bad. When we believe something we have to THINK it is good to believe it, therefore we believe it. It was based on our choice of what we saw as good at that moment in time. If we reject it, rejecting is based on another subject we see as the better choice.

In other words...IT IS GODS CHOICE!!!...and based on him alone.

I can fully agree with this.

Are you sure? Read this again and make sure, because if you believe this statement, you have changed your veiws of Romans 8.

“If you feel God foreknows all people...then you also must think that all people are predestinated.”

Yes I do. (Don’t you?)

Going by Romans 8, the verse you quoted and brought to the table to understand election, you would have a major problem believing all men are "known" by God as you take the meaning of the word.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son

In other words...every person God "KNOWS" is saved....going to Heaven.

Is that what you believe? I do.

I say, that he was searching because of a decision he made in his heart.

But earlier in this response, you seem to say the same thing;

“Our choices are based on our mind and what it thinks. This is why I answered the way I did about free-will. If you go to buy ice cream you will always buy what you view as the best choice for that moment. Even if they are out of your type of ice cream. You then move to another type and will pick what you feel is best for you at that moment. Our wills are bound by our desires and what we see as good.”

This is where non-Calvinist do not put the doctrines together. If they did they would see the real state of man. Man has a will that is free to choose his desires. This is what you agreed with above. But mans will is bound to his desires and his desires are evil. Its not in mans nature to choose God. Its like the lion that will not eat hay. The lion has the power to eat hay. The hay will keep him alive. But you can place hay in front of a hungry lion all day long and he will never eat it. Its not in his nature to eat it. The lion will die sleeping in hay, for lions do not eat hay. Lions eat meat.

So is man in his sin nature. Man has a nature that will never choose God. The desire are controled by sin. God must come and bring a NEW nature to man before man will believe. Ye must be born again...in order to see your need for salvation.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

Notice the word CAN. They CAN not. It does not say they WILL not. They CAN"T DO IT. Their will is BOUND to their desires.

God must bring the new birth before they CAN believe.

 

[psalms109:31]

Predestined

Without those chosen before the foundation of the world and prepared by God for good work, no one whould ever go out and spread the good news.

They do not understand, but God has included you with the elect those who heard the Gospel of salvation having believed.

I can't believe how desparately they need milk.

 

[Salamander]

Sal,what is Election?It's the choosing of some -- and the bypassing of others.The Lord has not chosen everyone for salvation.

It would be perfectly just of God to condemn everyone to everlasting perdition.Don't confuse His justice with His mercy.He has mercy on those whom He chooses to have mercy -- He hardens the rest.

God doesn't merely know who will be saved -- He determined the when where and how of their salvation.The Lord is the Author and Finisher of our faith.He gives faith to His elect.The Lord secures the salvation of His elect in time.Before the creation of the world He declared who would be His.He wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life in eternity past.

Those who are elect and precious are those chosen to be the predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. Salvation is the necessary condition for that conformation process to begin.

Saying one is predestined to be conformed in the polluted state of their having only sin tainted blood goes directly against ANY need for salvation from sin. These would need NO repentence, NO godly sorrow, NO conviction from the Holy Ghost, NO regeneration.

God has only EVER hardened the hearts of those who FIRST hardened their own hearts toward Him!

God has made the FIRST move in saving man, it is THEN man MUST respond to that call unto salvation: many are called, few are chosen.

The aspect of "many" means the multitudes have been called/ the aspect of the chosen is they are the ones who have correctly responded to the call, NOT that they were the ONLY ones who COULD respond correctly to the Gospel.

Sheesh! Do you REALLY think that little of the Gospel????

God doesn't merely know who will be saved -- He determined the when where and how of their salvation.The Lord is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Um, God Divinely KNOWS who will and when they will receive Christ.

He determined for all to hear the Gospel. He calls men to the service of the Lord to preach to EVERY creature, NOT just some.

I heard the Gospel and responded to that call at 12, but NOT correctly. It was God calling me, not the theology of calvinism. I had several other calls to salvation KNOWING it was the Lord. I rejected and resisted the Holy Ghost for over twenty years. It wasn't until I had realized what I had done for all those years KNOWING at that time I had not been genuinely saved at age 12.

Your stance is either that you're telling me that God was lying to me at 12 or he lied to me at 32.

God cannot lie.:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

Good post Salamander :thumbs:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Those who are elect and precious are those chosen to be the predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. Salvation is the necessary condition for that conformation process to begin.

2 Thess 2:13 says that we are chosen for salvation. Furthermore, to be chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ does start with salvation, as you say, and therefore, election is to salvation.

Saying one is predestined to be conformed in the polluted state of their having only sin tainted blood goes directly against ANY need for salvation from sin. These would need NO repentence, NO godly sorrow, NO conviction from the Holy Ghost, NO regeneration.

I don't think anyone is saying this.

Sheesh! Do you REALLY think that little of the Gospel????

I think it is obvious that you are the one who thinks little of the gospel.

He determined for all to hear the Gospel.

Actually he didn't. If you read the Bible, he blinded some (cf Matt 13; Isa 6). Furthermore, he plainly states that he did not do everything he could have to bring Tyre and Sidon to repentance.

He calls men to the service of the Lord to preach to EVERY creature, NOT just some.

Stop this. You are sounding like a Calvinist.

It was God calling me, not the theology of calvinism.

Um, the theology of Calvinism does say that God calls people to salvation.

Your stance is either that you're telling me that God was lying to me at 12 or he lied to me at 32.

I don't think God was lying at either point. I think you simply don't know what you are talkign about. You seem to be suggesting something about resisting the Holy Spirit. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that Calvinism doesn't believe that man can't resist the Holy Spirit.

Take some time to learn what you are talking about.

God cannot lie.

So when he said that he chooses people to salvation, that's what he means right? He wasn't lying when he said that.

 

[Salamander]

You haven't said anything but what you want others to believe.

I gave clear testimony to what the Bible teaches about the call of God to all men regarding salvation.

Calvinism has truth, but not complete truth in harmony with ALL Scripture.

It is at best only in part with convoluted twisting of Scripture as a man would do to impress others with his "wisdom".

God brings all man's wisodm to nought by the harmony of the Gospel to every crreature when man is concerned.

The gift of eternal life must be received, it is not a mandate that man had to receive the gift, but that it is a fact this gift is given and can be rejected. This emphatic truth is in perfect harmony with all Scripture.

The teachings of calvinism doesn't hold to that harmony of all Scripture is evident to anyone who knows the Lord. Whether they accept this or not is according to their own will and not the Lord's will to have every man know the truth which ultimately sets him free of all man's doctrines!:godisgood: :applause: :godisgood:

 

[Pastor Larry]

You haven't said anything but what you want others to believe.

Of course. I quoted the Bible and explained it, and I want others to believe it.

I gave clear testimony to what the Bible teaches about the call of God to all men regarding salvation.

Yes. You agree with Calvinism on that.

Calvinism has truth, but not complete truth in harmony with ALL Scripture.

That is untrue.

It is at best only in part with convoluted twisting of Scripture as a man would do to impress others with his "wisdom".

That is untrue.

God brings all man's wisodm to nought by the harmony of the Gospel to every crreature when man is concerned.

Yes, this is the heart of the gospel and therefore the heart of Calvinism. Your own thoughts do not measure up. You are still trying to use man's wisdom to explain it.

The gift of eternal life must be received, it is not a mandate that man had to receive the gift, but that it is a fact this gift is given and can be rejected. This emphatic truth is in perfect harmony with all Scripture.

Yes it is, and that is why Calvinism teaches it.

The teachings of calvinism doesn't hold to that harmony of all Scripture is evident to anyone who knows the Lord.

So you are saying that I don't know my Lord? Or perhaps you are indicating that you don't know Calvinism and the Scriptures.

 

[HankD]

RE:

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

Though I agree, it is not necessarily so. There are legitimate explanations of that verse that do not entail your understanding. However, I think God's moral will is that all men be saved. That is not his decreed will however.

OK here is where I have a difficulty.

It seems to me that there is a semantic conflict here.
The word "will" (thelo) is the proper word for the "will" of God and both the noun and verb form of thsi word share the same root.

How can God have two or more wills?

I have heard of His permissive will and that seems more understandable than a "moral will" which is in apparent conflict with His "decreed will".

Here to me is a danger that every system of theology and school of intrepretation has:

Namely : conclusions are drawn from an admixture of Scripture and human reasoning.

Sometimes this may be necessary to clarify essential doctrine but here is a difficulty for me.

I don't see a lot of Scripture teaching about the different wills of God.

Is there a Scripture anywhere that supports this concept that the moral will of God is one thing while His decree does not fulfill his moral will or is this possibly circular reasoning:

It's not His decreed will but it's His moral will which is not His decreed will.

The one example I think might be possible is what Jesus told the pharisees concerning divorce.

He hates divorce but allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts.
But this sounds more like a conflict between His desire and the bad outcome for a hardened society if He didn't allow it.

There are several verses of this order (1 Timothy 2:4) which I am hard put to reconcile with the 5 points. To make a distinction between His moral will and His decreed will still leaves me wondering about this verse.

But that's my fault and not God's (of course).


HankD

 

[russell55]

I don't see a lot of Scripture teaching about the different wills of God.

You're not going to find a statement in scripture saying, "God has two different sorts of wills." But if you read scripture carefully you can see that it uses the word will in different ways in relation to God.

For instance, James 4:13ff says this:

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

In the way James is using the word here, something will happen only if it's God's will. If something doesn't happen, then it wasn't God's will that it happen. This kind of will is reflected in what actually comes to pass.

Then you have will used the way it is in 1 Timothy 2:4:

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

In this case, if all men means every single person, then this is a kind of will of God that may or may not come to pass. If it were the same sort of will of God that James speaks of, then every single person would be saved.

So we have to conclude that scripture doesn't always mean the same thing when it speaks of the will of God. The two most obvious meaning are these:

• Sometimes it uses the word will to refer to what God commands people to do, what is the right thing to do. This is called God's will of command, or his moral will, or preceptive will or revealed will. This is what he tells people to do. Whether this will is done or not depends on whether people obey God's commands.
• Sometimes it uses it to refer to what actually happens in history. James 4 uses it this way, and Ephesians 1:11, where it says God works everything after the counsel of of his will. This will always comes to pass. This kind of will is called God's sovereign will, or secret will, or decretive will. It includes both the things God actively works and the things he allows to happen (his permissive will.) What this will is only becomes obvious to us as history unfolds.

The two types of "wills" aren't contradictory because they are completely separate categories of things, even though scripture uses the word will for both categories (as do we in normal English). The names given the two types of will (sovereign will, moral will, etc.) are just attempts to identify which category of "will" is referred to when the word is used.