The hidden dangers of Calvinism

[Pastor Larry]

The ideal of not being able to choose Christ or reject Christ. Calvinists believe only the elect can choose Christ.

It teaches that the non-elect reject Christ. So both sides are covered. There is no dilemma here.

The Bible teaches that only those who choose Christ become elect.

Where is this? Hopefully you can tell me. I have asked for years for people to show me this verse, but so far, no one has been able to demonstrate this from Scripture. So please, tell me where the Bible teaches that those who choose Christ become elect.

Jacob was never elect, yet after the operation of God Israel is elect and precious.

That's not what Romans 9 says. It says that the choice was made before the twins before, before they had done good or bad. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with God.

 

[J.D.]

"Buy a theological barrel-organ, brethren, with five tunes accurately adjusted, and you will be qualified to practise as an ultra-Calvinistic preacher at Zoar and Jireh, if you also purchase at some vinegar factory a good supply of bitter, acrid abuse of Arminians, and duty-faith men. Brains and grace are optional, but the organ and the wormwood are indispensable. It is ours to perceive and rejoice in a wider range of truth. All that these good men hold of grace and sovereignty we maintain as firmly and boldly as they; but we dare not shut our eyes to other teachings of the word, and we feel bound to make full proof of our ministry, by declaring the whole counsel of God." ---Charles Haddon Spurgeon

What does "acrid abuse of Arminians" have to do with this thread? Isn't the OP an acrid abuse of Calvinists, or did I miss something?

 

[J.D.]

"I remember saying something on this subject on one occasion in a certain ultra-Calvinistic place of worship. At that time I was preaching to children, and was exhorting them to pray, and I happened to say that long before any actual conversion I had prayed for common mercies, and that God had heard my prayers. This did not suit my good brethren of the superfine school; and afterwards they all came round me professedly to know what I meant, but really to cavil and carp according to their nature and wont. "They compassed me about like bees; yea, like bees they compassed me about!" After awhile, as I expected, they fell to their usual amusement of calling names. They began to say what rank Arminianism this was; and another expression they were pleased to honour with the title of "Fullerism;" a title, by the way, so honourable that I could heartily have thanked thern for appending it to what I had advanced. But to say that God should hear the prayer of natural men was something worse than Arminianism, if indeed anything could be worse to them. They quoted that counterfeit passage, "The prayer of the wicked is an abomination unto the Lord," which I speedily answered by asking them if they would find me that text in the word of God; for I ventured to assert that the devil was the author of that saying, and that it was not in the Bible at all." ---Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Is this thread about Spurgeon's battles with hyper calvinists? How about speaking to the topic?

 

[Rippon]

Is this thread about Spurgeon's battles with hyper calvinists? How about speaking to the topic?

Hi J.D. Yeah,Jerome is confusing Hyper-Calvinism with Calvinism proper.Spurgeon in his quotes is dealing with H-C'ism .

Jerome,if you wish to start yet another thread on hyper-Calvinism be my guest.But to lump it in with Calvinism is not right.Besides,Spurgeon was an ardent Calvinist.It would be impossible to try and deconstruct Calvinism using Spurgeon's quotes.Nevertheless some have tried to this day.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinism cannot be confirmed biblically. It is a heresy. It can only be confirmed by taking scripture out of context. The Bible isn't open to private interpretation. Calvin was a false prophet, because:

1. He believed in religious persecution.
2. He believed that sacraments were equal to God's Word.
3. He believed in infant baptism.
4. He was an amillenialist.
5. He believed in predestination to hell
6. He was a dictator.
7. He believed in religious persecution. (Micahel Servetus being a good example).

Your list is really six items;not seven.You repeated #1.

I don't have the time now to devote to the rest of your post.But I will get to it later.

1)You need to define "religious persecution"
2)Your charge is completely baseless.
3)True.But it's not a heresy.
4)True.But it's not a heresy.
5)True.But it's not a heresy.
6)False.But you have a lot of company in believing that.

You have not fared so well.From what source have you copied and pasted?

It is because of these reasons Calvinists don't like to be referred to as "Calvinists", instead, they prefer to call their doctrine/beliefs "The Doctrines of Grace", or "Sovereign Grace", and so attempt to distance themselves from John Calvin.

Arminians don't like to be called Arminians.However,Calvinists don't mind being called Calvinists despite the baggage with which many assail them for that term.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From TNIV, Except Where Noted

In actual fact, their doctrines go into human philosophy, which appeals to a proud mind. It is definitely not a biblical doctrine.

No.You are wrong in the extreme.Calvinism is quite biblical.It would not appeal to those with itching ears.

BTW,Calvinism does not consist of a singular doctrine.We believe in the full spectrum or full counsel of the Word of God -- it's comprehensive in fact.

I'd venture to say this : Instead of denouncing things which you have been ill-informed --why not actually read one of the works of a Calvinist past or present?You might be surprised with how much you actually agree.But then you'd have to acknowledge that you've been terribly wrong in the past about the subject.That's the only downside to it.

It's also rather strange that after approximately 1400 years of Christianity, absolutely no-one taught predestination, until Calvin came along. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Again you evidence a paucity of true knowledge regarding Church History.John Calvin was late on the scene.The doctrines with which Calvinists hold were evident in the works of :Augustine,Bede,Gottschalk,Wycliffe,John Huss,Martin Bucer and many others.It makes one think?Doesn't it?

... in scripture foreknowledge never determines what is to be, instead it always refers to just knowing things beforehand. A good example of this: Seismologists will know an earthquake will occur at a specific time and date, but they do not bring about the actual earthquake. That's where their foreknowledge begins and ends.

God is just a heavenly seismologist?!Get biblical.The Lord knows because He determines.He doesn't just have advance knowledge of the future.That's a wretched philosophy --not at all derived from Scripture."The Lord knows those who are his" according to 2 Tim.2:19.

Jesus said :"I am the good shepherd;I know my sheep and my sheep know me --just as the Father knows me and I know the Father --and I lay down my life for the sheep."(John 10;14,15).

Look at 1 Peter 1:2 :"who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

Romans 8:29 doesn't have anything to do with God seeing someone having faith in Him,or good deeds or anything.Whosoever will?No one.That's why God intercedes for His own and saves those who has chosen before the creation of the world.

In 2 Timothy 1:9 it says :"who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."

Because of His decree is the reason an individual is saved.Someone's faith doesn't trigger foreknowledge,because foreknowledge is before predestination and one's faith is the result of predestination.You really need to prayfully meditate over Acts 13:48.

Predestination: It is clear from scripture that predestination is never linked to lost men or sinners, but ALWAYS to the saved (Christians).

Election is never used with respect to the reprobate.But predestination can incorporate the preordained plan of God for the wicked (reprobate) as well as the glory which is planned for the elect.

Election: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." Ephesians 1:4. Election also means "chosen". Aah, so this really looks like God chooses some to be saved and others not.

Right you are!AMEN!

As we can see throughout scripture, God even loves sinners, but hates their sin.

As you can plainly see in Scripture God hates the sinner as well as the sin.Look at Psalm 5:5 for starters:"The arrogant cannot stand in your presence.You hate all who do wrong."

Go to Proverbs 3:32:"For the Lord detests the perverse..."

Have a gander at Proverbs 11:20:"The Lord detests those whose hearts are perverse..."

Now Goldie,are we to accept the testimony of God's Word, or your feeble ruminations?

So much for Calvinism. They have no hope and they have no security. Not a good place to be. I don't envy them in the least, actually I pray that their eyes are opened to the truth in Christ Jesus.

What a hoot! Do you think you have vanquished Calvinisim once and for all with your post?

The thoughts you have expressed in the above is a lot of hooey.You should feel shame.

 

[Rippon]

Whosoever sheds light in the darkness of limited atonement.

Why don't you make full sentences?You do make foolish assertions though.

Irrestible (sic)grace does not exist; Festus and Agrippa BOTH resisted grace.

Instead of thinking of I.G. it will be easier for you to remember that the Lord effectually calls His elect ones.

Adam excercised his will in that choice in fear of losing Eve.

Pure speculation.That's not founded on biblical truth.

Eve chose according to her desire to gain unknown before knowledge other than what the Lord had passed on to her through her husband Adam.

Please rephrase in more understandable English.What in the world is "unknown before knowledge"?

Salvation works the very same way: Man chooses to believe or reject. He can see no more than religion, but then through enlightenment and exposure of his sin/ nakedness before the Lord, he reaches, by choice, to be apprehended by the arms of grace offered to him. he may choose to reject this arm of salvation after enlightenment, or he may make the right choice and fall into those arms of grace.

Spoken as a true free-willer.Praise the people who have the insight,merit or internal wherewithal to make the right choice!

What "enlightenment" are you speaking of?It sounds rather new age to me.

God chose to save all that will come to Him.

Why does anyone come to the Lord?Answer:Because the Lord draws them to Himself.

The rich young ruler came to Jesus for knowledge

Give me a verse that substantiates that claim of yours.

Jesus told the woman of Samaria if she had asked him for water he would have given her living water. She then asked for that water by choice after illumination.

Please define "illumination".Does it mean the same thing as "enlightenment"?

Calvinism's dogmatisms are darkness for they reject light. It's(sic) teachings attempt to limit light to only a chosen few, yet nothing can be hid in darkness for His life was the light of men, not some men, and the darkness comprehended it not.

So you're saying Calvinists dwell in darkness because we are still in an unregenerate state?Better answer carefully here.

Did God bring light to those who know nothing of Christ -- nothing of the Gospel?Before Christ came did He bring saving light to each and every person too?

This presents a dilemma for calvinists; they must either choose to receive that same light or choose to remain in darkness of these facts of the Gospel for any man to reject Christ or to receive Christ.

There you go again Sal.Those who believe in biblical particular atonement are walking in darkness in your estimation.You really need to get a clue.Along the way acknowledge that you are sorry for your unfounded and disgraceful remarks.

Is there a danger to calvinism? Certainly, it's called the hidden danger found in darkness/it has no purpose other than to exalt ones own view of the word of God contrary to the whole counsel of God.

I believe the whole counsel of the Word of God as a Calvinist.As an Arminian (of sorts) you believe you espouse correct theology.So far you have not demonstrated that you know anything more about true Calvinism than you do about the subject of KJVO.That's a pretty poor track record you have.

 

[psalms109:31]

Calvinist

We cannot deny God just Choosing people without even their choice. To prophisied for Jesus to prepare His way. To pick the twelve to prepare them for the Holy Spirits to come.

Now that the Holy Spirit is here and within us who believe, now the message is for all men and God made us the messenger and whosoever believes shall be saved.

Calvinist must mature and learn as Paul did that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

I constantly pray for a revival.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi psalms109:31

You said........

“I'm sorry but what is important is God's word. If it isn't true where is God's glory.”

You never have to be sorry, to take a stand for God’s Word.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi J.D.

You said........

“Were you referring to yourself as a 2 or 3 point Calvinist just to impress somebody? No wonder you fell off the fence!”

My exact quote was......

“I am no longer going to refer to myself(if pressed), as a 2 or 3 point Calvinist.”

The “if pressed” part, has to do with a desire to “get along” with my brother Calvinist.

What I meant was, just because I leaning toward Calvinism, doesn’t mean that I agree with all their doctrine.

 

[HankD]

Since we are kicking this dead horse again, I'll kick mine.

It's not so much Calvin or calvinism that is the problem.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

KJV 1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

It's us (First person plural includes me).

The whole array of personages in this Scripture are included here, Christ Himself, Apostles and teachers from among the "laity".

It's easy to predict that this kind of thread, if allowed to continue, will eventually bring questions concerning the spiritual condition of others which appears to be a step beyond what Paul was complaining about.

But, hey, we are Baptists.

Love and blessings to Aminiasts and Calvinians alike.

HankD​

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Salamander

You said.........

“Adam chose to disobey the Lord. Adam excercised his will in that choice in fear of losing Eve. Eve chose according to her desire to gain unknown before knowledge other than what the Lord had passed on to her through her husband Adam. Her desire controlled her DECISION. Although she was beguiled by the serpent, she still chose to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Adam and Eve chose to hide their nakedness with the leaves of the fig tree. God chose to clothe them with the skins of animals AFTER they chose to cast away the fig leaves and choose rather what the Lord provided for them.

Salvation works the very same way: Man chooses to believe or reject. He can see no more than religion, but then through enlightenment and exposure of his sin/ nakedness before the Lord, he reaches, by choice, to be apprehended by the arms of grace offered to him. he may choose to reject this arm of salvation after enlightenment, or he may make the right choice and fall into those arms of grace.

God chose to save all that will come to Him. God did come to man first to make the offer, it is then up to any man to come for what God offers.”

Very well put.

Matthew 11:28
“Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Pastor Larry

You quoted “someone” saying.........

“This presents a dilemma for calvinists; they must either choose to receive that same light or choose to remain in darkness of these facts of the Gospel for any man to reject Christ or to receive Christ.”

Then you asked........

“What's the dilemma?”

Well the dilemma is, Calvinists don’t believe that everyone will be given this choice.

 

[jcjordan]

Well the dilemma is, Calvinists don’t believe that everyone will be given this choice.

Who told you this? Can you quote me a calvinist who has said this?

 

[webdog]

Who told you this? Can you quote me a calvinist who has said this?

Well your camp claims "choice"...but your side redefines the definition of that being between one thing and one thing only...by the real definition of what a choice entails, a non choice.

 

[J.D.]

Since we are kicking this dead horse again, I'll kick mine.

It's not so much Calvin or calvinism that is the problem.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.​

KJV 1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?​

It's us (First person plural includes me).​

The whole array of personages in this Scripture are included here, Christ Himself, Apostles and teachers from among the "laity".​

It's easy to predict that this kind of thread, if allowed to continue, will eventually bring questions concerning the spiritual condition of others which appears to be a step beyond what Paul was complaining about.​

But, hey, we are Baptists.​

Love and blessings to Aminiasts and Calvinians alike.​

HankD​

Thanks brother for your love and blessings, but the C v A issue doesn't have anything to do with who follows which favorite leader. Something far greater is at stake. To the typical non-C, the justice of God is at stake, and to the typical C, the omnipotent glory of God is at stake. For some people, their whole image of God crumbles if he does not love all people equally, even though the Bible plainly declares that he prefers some over others for no reason in the one preferred.

 

[J.D.]

Hi J.D.

You said........

My exact quote was......


The “if pressed” part, has to do with a desire to “get along” with my brother Calvinist.

What I meant was, just because I leaning toward Calvinism, doesn’t mean that I agree with all their doctrine.

Okay, I see what you mean. But you did say "just to impress someone". I would just caution you to be fully convinced in your own conscience as to what you believe and don't let anybody "press" you into accepting something you don't really believe.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well the dilemma is, Calvinists don’t believe that everyone will be given this choice.

Can you quote a mainstream Calvinist you have read that has said this?

 

[jcjordan]

Well your camp claims "choice"...but your side redefines the definition of that being between one thing and one thing only...by the real definition of what a choice entails, a non choice.

I asked you for a quote from a calvinist who says that all people don't have a choice. Is this your answer?

 

[stilllearning]

Hello again J.D.

You warned me.........

“I would just caution you to be fully convinced in your own conscience as to what you believe and don't let anybody "press" you into accepting something you don't really believe.”

Well one of the points of this post, is to warn everybody, that no matter how grounded you are in the faith, it is always dangerous to “give you ear” to anyone teaching error.

None of us should think, that we can not be deceived.
1 Corinthians 10:12
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”