The hidden dangers of Calvinism

[Tom Butler]

I do believe you saying that everyone in the world past tense and present tense has heard the word of GOD. I will say that GOD is not linited with his power and will. Yes he can reach to whom so ever he will. As stated somewhere in the nt, I just can't remember at this present time, that if he were to command, even the roccks would cry out to him.

The question is not whether God can reach everybody, past or present; it is, did he and does he? Nor is the question, can God get the gospel of Jesus Christ to all; it is, did he and does he?

Further, are there people today on our planet who have never heard the gospel, from the day they are born to this day, through no fault of their own? Are there those have died and will die without ever coming in contact with a missionary or preacher of the gospel?

In the Old Testament, let's consider Deut 7:6-8:

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (KJV)

And in the New Testament, we have to deal with this verse:

Matt 10:5-6 "These twelve Jesus sent forth and commanded them, saying, Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Now we know that later, Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached everywhere. But here, the Gentiles and Samaritans are specifically excluded for the time being. If one Gentile or one Samaritan dies before they hear, then we have a problem.

 

[Tom Butler]

Hmm, I've tried to post and nothing happens.

Update: A dialog box popped up saying I needed to reinstall Microsoft Works because a component or file was missing. I did and whereas once I was blind, now I can see my posts.

 

[webdog]

I do believe you saying that everyone in the world past tense and present tense has heard the word of GOD. I will say that GOD is not linited with his power and will. Yes he can reach to whom so ever he will. As stated somewhere in the nt, I just can't remember at this present time, that if he were to command, even the roccks would cry out to him.

Romans 10...
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g] 16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."[i]

 

[webdog]

double post

 

[ray Marshall]

The question is not whether God can reach everybody, past or present; it is, did he and does he? Nor is the question, can God get the gospel of Jesus Christ to all; it is, did he and does he?

Further, are there people today on our planet who have never heard the gospel, from the day they are born to this day, through no fault of their own? Are there those have died and will die without ever coming in contact with a missionary or preacher of the gospel?

In the Old Testament, let's consider Deut 7:6-8:



And in the New Testament, we have to deal with this verse:



Now we know that later, Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached everywhere. But here, the Gentiles and Samaritans are specifically excluded for the time being. If one Gentile or one Samaritan dies before they hear, then we have a problem.

I cannot for see a problem. Will you be more pacific.Will they be with GOD or with Satan? Myself, I believe JESUS took care of the problem. His people will be there regardless. The population of heaven is a fact, for he gave eternal life to AS MANY AS GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, That is the Population of Heaven.The population of heaven is, AS MANY AS GOD GAVE HIM TO DIE FOR. Not one more, nor one less. If it makes someone mad, then the problem is with you.

 

[Tom Butler]

I cannot for see a problem. Will you be more pacific.Will they be with GOD or with Satan? Myself, I believe JESUS took care of the problem. His people will be there regardless. The population of heaven is a fact, for he gave eternal life to AS MANY AS GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, That is the Population of Heaven.The population of heaven is, AS MANY AS GOD GAVE HIM TO DIE FOR. Not one more, nor one less. If it makes someone mad, then the problem is with you.

Brother Ray, since you're a Primitive Baptist, I can see how this is not a problem for you.

It's not a problem for most Calvinists, either, who believe that God will send the gospel to his elect and they will respond.

 

[Jerome]

His people will be there regardless.

Regardless of what?

 

[ray Marshall]

Brother Ray, since you're a Primitive Baptist, I can see how this is not a problem for you.

It's not a problem for most Calvinists, either, who believe that God will send the gospel to his elect and they will respond.

Hello Brother Tom, May I ask you what demoniation are you. Helen Keller was said to say when she was told about GOD, maybe JESUS, she did rrespond that she has known of him sometime in her lifetime. just glad that you told me his name. Something another like that, not able to quote her response worw for word.

 

[Tom Butler]

Hello Brother Tom, May I ask you what demoniation are you. Helen Keller was said to say when she was told about GOD, maybe JESUS, she did rrespond that she has known of him sometime in her lifetime. just glad that you told me his name. Something another like that, not able to quote her response worw for word.

Brother Ray, I am a Southern Baptist who holds to the doctrines of grace.

I have heard the Helen Keller story as well. Here it is, from the American Foundation for the Blind website:

As a child, Helen Keller had been told that Mother Nature had made the sky, trees, water, and all living creatures. However, as she grew older, she inquired about God, and was baffled. Her friends tried to tell her that God was the creator, and that he was everywhere, that he knew all the needs, joys, and sorrows of every human life, and that nothing happened without his foreknowledge and providence. Helen Keller was drawn irresistibly to such a glorious, lovable being, and longed to really understand something about him. One day Helen Keller asked her teacher Anne Sullivan questions about God and Jesus. Miss Sullivan did not feel she could adequately answer these questions, so she took Helen to see Phillips Brooks, the gifted preacher and rector at Trinity Church in Boston. Anne Sullivan felt that if anyone could answer Helen's questions in a simple and beautiful way, Bishop Brooks could.
Bishop Brooks understood Helen. He put her on his knee and told her in the simplest way that God loved her and every one of his children. He made him seem so real that Helen said, "Yes I know him, I just had forgotten his name."
Helen Keller, My Religion, pp 9-10.


Although I was not limit God in any way, let me add a caveat to this story. In Miss Keller's book cited here, she advocates Swedenborgianism, which rejects the traditional idea of the Trinity, of the atonement and of salvation by faith alone. She also was a universalist, if I understand correctly.

This may not be the best case to cite to make the point that God can save independently of the gospel.

 

[Jerome]

It might if one were a Primitive Baptist Universalist.:laugh:

"A tiny fourth, exclusively Appalachian group, the Universalists or "No-Hellers," believe that the entire human race will eventually be saved by the predestination of God. . . . The question of the origins of Universalism among the central Appalachian Primitive Baptists must thus remain unanswered, and this author wonders if perhaps the associations who embraced the doctrine simply might have gotten so fanatical about the concepts of eternal election and absolute predestination, obver a period of several years, that---for lack of a better way to phrase it--they traveled all the way through the theological system that they had set up and came out on its other side, much as the original American Universalists did at the close of the eighteenth century." ---Elder John Sparks, Roots of Appalachian Christianity (2005), pp. 249-250.

When will the theological speculation end?

 

[psalms109:31]

Explanation of the truth

I absolutely agree. If man is ever going to have truth then it will always be God who gives the explanation of the truth. Amen
MB

God does not have to give an explanation of the truth. His word is truth not the word of men and thier understnding of God's word.

We do not have to understand, just believe and you will have the truth. People to much lean on thier own understanding and miss the truth trying to explain the truth in thier carnal mind.

See just believing in God's word takes away from man leaning on thier carnal mind, which is depraved.

Some believe they are so Spiritual, but they are carnal , you can't trust in your understanding only in God's word.

The word of God is what comes from God, you either become a child and just trust in His word or you can continue being carnal and trust in your own understanding which is not trusting in the Lord, but trusting in yourself.

Men say they depend on God, but they are lying to themselves

 

[ray Marshall]

Romans 10...
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g] 16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."[i]

I think you are putting too many "YOU'S" in the first paragraph.

 

[ray Marshall]

Regardless of what?

Regardless of their circumstances, period. GOD takes care of everything. No works of the flesh to suit his approval.

 

[ray Marshall]

Brother Ray, I am a Southern Baptist who holds to the doctrines of grace.

I have heard the Helen Keller story as well. Here it is, from the American Foundation for the Blind website:

As a child, Helen Keller had been told that Mother Nature had made the sky, trees, water, and all living creatures. However, as she grew older, she inquired about God, and was baffled. Her friends tried to tell her that God was the creator, and that he was everywhere, that he knew all the needs, joys, and sorrows of every human life, and that nothing happened without his foreknowledge and providence. Helen Keller was drawn irresistibly to such a glorious, lovable being, and longed to really understand something about him. One day Helen Keller asked her teacher Anne Sullivan questions about God and Jesus. Miss Sullivan did not feel she could adequately answer these questions, so she took Helen to see Phillips Brooks, the gifted preacher and rector at Trinity Church in Boston. Anne Sullivan felt that if anyone could answer Helen's questions in a simple and beautiful way, Bishop Brooks could.
Bishop Brooks understood Helen. He put her on his knee and told her in the simplest way that God loved her and every one of his children. He made him seem so real that Helen said, "Yes I know him, I just had forgotten his name."
Helen Keller, My Religion, pp 9-10.


Although I was not limit God in any way, let me add a caveat to this story. In Miss Keller's book cited here, she advocates Swedenborgianism, which rejects the traditional idea of the Trinity, of the atonement and of salvation by faith alone. She also was a universalist, if I understand correctly.

This may not be the best case to cite to make the point that God can save independently of the gospel.

Thank for your message about Helen Keller. I had heard that she was contrary to the ways of GOD sometime in her lifetime. I am guessing that it was when she was young and actually can not say that for a fact.
Hello Southern Baptist Brother. Glad to you hold to the doctrines of sovereign grace also.

 

[webdog]

I think you are putting too many "YOU'S" in the first paragraph.

I didn't put them there, that is straight from the Bible.

 

[MB]

The scripture plainly says: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.." Romans 1:19-20

The theory being that if someone enquires after God, He will send a missionary to tell them of the gospel.

A simple statement.

Cheers,

Jim

In fact if you read the rest of Romans 1 You can see that for those who reject even though they know the truth of Christ they are turned over to a reprobate mind. What you fail to understand is that men can know and understand and still reject Christ. This is why they have no excuse. None of us have an excuse and the reason is as that passage plainly states the truth and the mysteries of God is manifested with in our hearts and we know the truth when we hear it.



MB

 

[MB]

God does not have to give an explanation of the truth. His word is truth not the word of men and thier understnding of God's word.

We do not have to understand, just believe and you will have the truth. People to much lean on thier own understanding and miss the truth trying to explain the truth in thier carnal mind.

See just believing in God's word takes away from man leaning on thier carnal mind, which is depraved.

Some believe they are so Spiritual, but they are carnal , you can't trust in your understanding only in God's word.

The word of God is what comes from God, you either become a child and just trust in His word or you can continue being carnal and trust in your own understanding which is not trusting in the Lord, but trusting in yourself.

Men say they depend on God, but they are lying to themselves

God doesn't have to do anything but He does. He starts the work in men and He finishes it. Your right about the word it's God's word and it must have absolute authority in our lives.
MB

 

[HankD]

We don't need to stamp our belief(s) with names of mortal men​

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Just be happy you are His.

Luke 10:20 ... rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


HankD​

 

[Benjamin]

I didn't put them there, that is straight from the Bible.

Silly you!

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Cited Is From The NASBU

In fact if you read the rest of Romans 1 You can see that for those who reject even though they know the truth of Christ they are turned over to a reprobate mind. What you fail to understand is that men can know and understand and still reject Christ. This is why they have no excuse. None of us have an excuse and the reason is as that passage plainly states the truth and the mysteries of God is manifested with in our hearts and we know the truth when we hear it.

Romans 1 does not say that these people who are without excuse knew anything of Christ.They knew of God :"For even though they knew God,they did not honor Him as God or give thanks,but they became futile in their speculations,and their foolish heart was darkened."(V.21)

The only "knowing of God"which they had was:"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so they are without excuse."(V.20)