The hidden dangers of Calvinism

[gb93433]

Name calling with no proof always falls on those that have no proof to give.

"The calvinism you suggest is like a greased pig."

Using the accepted rules of English grammar did you notice what the subject of the sentence was?

 

[gb93433]

bogus claims by those who do not understand what it is.

What books have you read by Calvin?

 

[Jarthur001]

What books have you read by Calvin?

What books have I read by Calvin?

I read the Bible. Calvin did not write the Bible.

 

[Jarthur001]

"The calvinism you suggest is like a greased pig."

Using the accepted rules of English grammar did you notice what the subject of the sentence was?

yes.....and the name calling is nothing but name calling unless you can prove "Calvinism is a greased pig".

This is but poor debate. It's like me saying... NON-CALVINIST DOCTRINE IS LIKE A DUMB DONKEY.

What's the point with no proof????

 

[gb93433]

yes.....and the name calling is nothing but name calling unless you can prove "Calvinism is a greased pig".

This is but poor debate. It's like me saying... NON-CALVINIST DOCTRINE IS LIKE A DUMB DONKEY.

I saw no indication that anyone or Pastor Larry was offended by the idiomatic expression that has been used for many many years.

Just in case you do not know what a greased pig is you might want to take a look at the following websites.

http://www.wikihow.com/Catch-a-Greased-Pig

http://www.pinedaleonline.com/news/2006/07/PigWrestlingGreasedP.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me8UMgYj1_k

http://www.news-banner.com/index/news-app/story.10856

 

[gb93433]

yes.....and the name calling is nothing but name calling unless you can prove "Calvinism is a greased pig".

This is but poor debate. It's like me saying... NON-CALVINIST DOCTRINE IS LIKE A DUMB DONKEY.

What's the point with no proof????

Look at what I wrote again. Look at the word like.

Calvin was not a greased pig nor was his theology. However, it is amazing how many call themselves "calvinists" yet have never read any of his works. How can anyone call themselves a Christian and claim to adhere to Christ's theology and not know who He is and what He stood for?

I have far more respect for Calvin than many "calvinists" who have never read any of his works and really do not know what his theology was yet claim to be calvinists. It shows the real statre of the church today when it will accept things people say and promote and yet do not verify their words. It is like a person being wrongly accused by someone and the jury accepts the accusers words as fact.

Many "calvinists" differ among themselves in their soteriology yet claim to be calvinists. Calvinism is like a slippery pig with so many views. Because of that it is difficult for anyone to get a handle on what they really believe as calvinists.

If you had read Calvin's Institutes you would know that even Calvin himself realized that if his theology were taken too far it would lead into trouble. I have far more respect for Calvin because of his humility than many calvinists who make claims, Calvin never represented.

I am wondering why so many who claim to be calvinists have not read Calvin's works. How can anyone know what he stood for if they have not read any of his works?

 

[Rippon]

I have far more respect for Calvin than many "calvinists" who have never read any of his works and really do not know what his theology was yet claim to be calvinists. It shows the real statre(sic) of the church today when it will accept things people say and promote and yet do not verify their words.

We,as Calvinists,verify our beliefs by the Word of God.John Calvin is not the source for our theology.

Many "calvinists" differ among themselves in their soteriology yet claim to be calvinists. Calvinism is like a slippery pig with so many views. Because of that it is difficult for anyone to get a handle on what they really believe as calvinists.

It's not difficult to get a handle on our beliefs.Aren't you the least bit familiar with the classic :Knowing God by J.I.Packer?You should be aware of A.W.Pink's well-known:The Sovereignty Of God.It's well written,very biblical and quite fascinating.Tom Nettles just updated his book:By His Grace And For His Glory.I have the 2002 version.

There are many more,but those would be some very basic works.Pick up and read Buddy.You have no excuse.You'll "get a handle"!

If you had read Calvin's Institutes you would know that even Calvin himself realized that if his theology were taken too far it would lead into trouble. I have far more respect for Calvin because of his humility than many calvinists who make claims, Calvin never represented.

John Calvin stuck extra close to the text.Calvin was not a speculative theologian.He warned his readers not to venture beyond what the Scriptures declare.

When you say that Calvinists make claims which Calvin never made -- to what are you referring specifically?

Are you saying we shouldn't be called Calvinists when we differ with him on some matters?You need to write with more clarity.

Again,John Calvin is not the go-to-guy;the Word of God is our source.

I am wondering why so many who claim to be calvinists have not read Calvin's works. How can anyone know what he stood for if they have not read any of his works?

You like to repeat the same question multiple times.From my previous statements you should be able to answer this yourself.And remember,don't ask it again.That will prove that you 1) have a poor memory 2) refuse to acknowledge previously dicussed material.

 

[Jarthur001]

Look at what I wrote again. Look at the word like.

Calvin was not a greased pig nor was his theology. However, it is amazing how many call themselves "calvinists" yet have never read any of his works. How can anyone call themselves a Christian and claim to adhere to Christ's theology and not know who He is and what He stood for?

I have far more respect for Calvin than many "calvinists" who have never read any of his works and really do not know what his theology was yet claim to be calvinists. It shows the real statre of the church today when it will accept things people say and promote and yet do not verify their words. It is like a person being wrongly accused by someone and the jury accepts the accusers words as fact.

Many "calvinists" differ among themselves in their soteriology yet claim to be calvinists. Calvinism is like a slippery pig with so many views. Because of that it is difficult for anyone to get a handle on what they really believe as calvinists.

If you had read Calvin's Institutes you would know that even Calvin himself realized that if his theology were taken too far it would lead into trouble. I have far more respect for Calvin because of his humility than many calvinists who make claims, Calvin never represented.

I am wondering why so many who claim to be calvinists have not read Calvin's works. How can anyone know what he stood for if they have not read any of his works?

1) However, it is amazing how many call themselves "calvinists" yet have never read any of his works.

Statements like this show you don't know Calvinism. Calvinism is not a study of John Calvin. Its an understanding of the Bible and the doctrines that were also held by Calvin, and those that do not like those doctrines call us Calvinist, because of what he wrote on the doctrines...and not because he is a god. However being you seem not to get it, I must add, one need not read John Calvin. One needs only to read the Bible

2) How can anyone call themselves a Christian and claim to adhere to Christ's theology and not know who He is and what He stood for?

Who? Calvin or Christ?

3) I have far more respect for Calvin than many "calvinists" who have never read any of his works and really do not know what his theology was yet claim to be calvinists.

Good

4) It shows the real statre of the church today when it will accept things people say and promote and yet do not verify their words.

You mean like...."Calvinist follow John Calvin???" That is a strange one....is it not? and wrong at that.

5) Many "calvinists" differ among themselves in their soteriology yet claim to be calvinists. Calvinism is like a slippery pig with so many views.

You mean like Baptist?

Behold the list of Baptist....

Alliance of Baptists
American Baptist Association
American Baptist Churches
Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
Baptist Bible Fellowship International
Baptist Bible Translators
Baptist Churches Planting Ministry
Baptist Foundation of Arizona
Baptist Fundamental Ministries for Jewish Evangelism
Baptist General Conference
Baptist Missionary Association of America
Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America
Black Primitive Baptists
Central Baptist Association
Christian Unity Baptist Association
Conservative Baptist Association of America
Continental Baptist Churches
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
Enterprise Association of Regular Baptists
Evangelical Free Baptist Church
Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship Association
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
General Association of Baptists
General Association of General Baptists
General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
General Six-Principle Baptists
Independent Baptist Church of America
Independent Baptist Fellowship International
Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
Institutional Missionary Baptist Conference of America
Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
Landmark Baptists
Liberty Baptist Fellowship
Macedonia Baptist World Missions
Mainstream Baptist Network
National Association of Free Will Baptists
National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
North American Baptist Conference
Old Regular Baptist
Indian Bottom Association of Old Regular Baptists
Old Time Missionary Baptist
Original Free Will Baptist Convention
Primitive Baptist
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Reformed Baptist
Regular Baptist
Roger Williams Fellowship
Separate Baptist
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptist General Conference
Southern Baptist Convention
Southwide Baptist Fellowship
Sovereign Grace Baptists
Transforming MinistriesCalifornia American Baptist Split
Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
United American Free Will Baptist Church
United American Free Will Baptist Conference
United Baptists
Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
World Baptist Fellowship
Worldwide Baptist New Testament Missions
United States - Regional bodies
Association of Fundamental Baptist Churches of Northern California
Association of Independent Baptist Churches of Illinois
Baptist General Association of Virginia
Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma
Baptist General Convention of Texas
Dakota Baptist Association
Empire State Fellowship of Regular Baptist Churches
Independent Fundamental Baptist Association of Michigan
Inter-Mountain Baptist Fellowship
Minnesota Baptist Association
Minnesota Baptist Conference
Mountain States Baptist Fellowship
New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
Ohio Valley Association of Christian Baptist Churches of God
Southern Baptists of Texas
Wisconsin Fellowship of Baptist Churches
North American Baptist Fellowship
Association of Regular Baptist Churches
Atlantic Region Ministries
Baptist General Conference of Canada
Central Canada Baptist Conference
Canadian Baptist Ministries
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
Baptist Union of Western Canada
Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
Union of French Baptist Churches of Canada
Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
Covenanted Baptist Church of Canada
Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
Landmark Missionary Baptist Association of Quebec
Primitive Baptist Conference of New Brunswick, Maine and Nova Scotia
Seventh Day Baptist General Conference of the United States and Canada
Sovereign Grace Fellowship of Canada
Ukrainian Evangelical Baptist Convention of Canada
Union of Slavic Churches of Evangelical Christians and Slavic Baptists of Canada
National Baptist Convention of Mexico
Baptist Association of El Salvador
Baptist Convention of Costa Rica
Baptist Convention of Nicaragua
Baptist Convention of Panama
National Union of Baptist Churches
Biblical Baptist Convention
Brazilian Baptist Convention
Brazilian Conference of Seventh Day Baptists Churches
Independent Baptist Convention
National Baptist Convention
Peace Baptist Churches
Regular Baptist Convention
Baptist Cooperative Convention of Guyana
Bolivian Baptist Union
Colombia Baptist Youth Union
Ecuador Baptist Convention
Evangelical Baptist Convention of Chile
Evangelical Baptist Convention of Paraguay

 

[Jarthur001]

MORE......


Evangelical Baptist Convention of Uruguay
Latin American Baptist Youth Congress
Light and Truth Evangelical Assembly - Reformed Baptist -
Latin American Baptist Women Union
Venezuela Baptist Convention Convención Nacional Bautista de Venezuela Cooperation agreement with Southern Baptists and Baptist Midmission
Venezuela Mainstream Baptists
Union of Baptists in Latin America
Baptist World Alliance
Independent Baptist
Seventh Day Baptist World Federation
Ghana Baptist Convention
Nigerian Baptist Convention
Sierra Leone Baptist Convention
National Baptist Convention
African Baptist Assembly of Malawi, Inc.
African United Baptist Church
Baptist Association of South Africa
Baptist Bible Church of Madagascar
Baptist Convention of Angola
Baptist Convention of Zambia
Baptist Convention of South Africa
Baptist Evangelical Association of Madagascar
Baptist Fellowship of Zambia
Baptist Union of Southern Africa
Baptist Union of Zambia
Union of Baptist Churches of Mozambique
Association of Baptist Churches of Chad
Baptist Churches of the Central African Republic
Baptist Community of Western Zaire
Baptist Community of the Zaire River
All-Africa Baptist Fellowship
Baptist Convention of Hong Kong
Gospel Baptist Association
Japan Baptist Association
Japan Baptist Convention
Oceania
Baptist Union of Australia
Baptist Union of New Zealand
Australasian Conference of Seventh Day Baptists
Association of Seventh Day Baptists (Australia)
Baptist Union of Papua New Guinea
Marianas Association of General Baptists
Solomons Baptist Association
Association of Fundamental Baptist Churches in the Philippines
Baptist Conference of the Philippines
Cambodian Baptist Convention
Convention of Philippine Baptist Churches
Convention of Visayas and Mindanao Southern Baptist Churches
Luzon Convention of Southern Baptist Churches
Malaysia Baptist Convention
Myanmar Baptist Convention
Philippine Chinese Baptist Convention
Singapore Baptist Convention
Union of Indonesian Baptist Churches
Ao Baptist Arogo Mungdang
Apatani Christian Fellowship
Assam Baptist Convention
Baptist Christian Association
Baptist Church of Mizoram
Baptist Union of North India
Bengal Baptist Fellowship
Bengal Orissa Bihar Baptist Convention
Council of Baptist Churches in Northern India
Convention of Baptist Churches of the Northern Circars
Evangelical Baptist Convention of India
Garo Baptist Convention
Gospel Association of India
India Association of General Baptists
Karbi Anglong Baptist Convention
Karnataka Baptist Convention
Lower Assam Baptist Union
Maharashtra Baptist Society
Manipur Baptist Convention
Nagaland Baptist Church Council
North Bank Baptist Christian Association
Orissa Baptist Evangelical Crusade
Rabha Baptist Church Union
Samavesam of Telugu Baptist Churches
Separate Baptists in Christ
Seventh Day Baptist Church
Tamil Baptist Churches
Tripura Baptist Christian Union of India
Asia Pacific Baptist Federation (formerly Asian Baptist Federation)
Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
Baptist Missions
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Baptist Union of Great Britain
Baptist Union of Scotland
Baptist Union of Wales
Grace Baptist Assembly
Old Baptist Union
Strict Baptists
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Association of Grace Baptist Churches
Northern Region (Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland)
Southern Region (Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland)
Albanian Baptist Union
Association of Independent Evangelical Baptists of Spain
Baptist Union of Austria
Baptist Church in Bosnia and Herzegovina
Baptist Union of Bulgaria
Baptist Union of Croatia
Baptist Union in the Czech Republic
Baptist Union of Denmark
Baptist Union of Hungary
Baptist Union of Italy
Baptist Union of Kazakhstan
Baptist Union of Poland
Baptist Union of Romania
Baptist Union of Sweden
Oerebro Charismatic Baptist Interlink New Life Mission
Brotherhood of Baptist Churches
Brotherhood of Independent Baptist Churches and Ministries of Ukraine
Brotherly Union of Baptists in Slovakia
Convention of Baptists in Portugal
Convention of the Hungarian Baptist Churches of Romania
Evangelical Baptist Church of Georgia
Evangelical Reformed Baptist Churches in Italy Chiese evangeliche riformate battiste in Italia (CERBI)
Federation of Evangelical Baptist Churches of France
Finnish Baptist Union
Independent Baptist Federation
Independent Baptist Fellowship
Norwegian Baptist Union
Swedish-Speaking Baptist Union of Finland
Swiss Baptist Union
The All-Ukrainian Union of Associations of Evangelical Christians-Baptists
The Baptist Union of Lithuania
Ukrainian Baptist Union
The Union of Evangelical Christian Baptist Churches in the Republic of Belarus
Union of Baptists in Belgium
Union of the Baptist Christians in the Republic of Macedonia
Union of Baptist Churches in Serbia
Union of Baptist Churches in the Netherlands
Union of Baptist Churches in Latvia
Union of Baptist Churches in the Republic of Slovenia
Union of Baptist churches of Saint-Petersburg and Leningrad
Union of Christian Evangelical Baptist Churches of Moldova
Union of Evangelical Baptists of Spain
Union of Evangelical Christian and Baptist Churches of Estonia
Union of Evangelical Christian Baptist Churches of Armenia
Union of Evangelical Christian Baptists of Azerbaijan
Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists of Kyrgyzstan
Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists of Russia
Union of Evangelical Christians-Baptists of Yugoslavia
Union of Evangelical Free Church Congregations in Germany
Seventh Day Baptists in the Netherlands
Association of Baptist Churches in Israel
Egyptian Baptist Convention
Jordan Baptist Convention
Lebanese Baptist Convention
Syrian Baptist Convention
Regional bodies
European Baptist Federation
International Baptist Convention
Barbados
Barbados Baptist Convention
Spiritual Baptist
Baptist Convention of Eastern Cuba
Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
Baptist Convention of Haiti(Southern Baptist)
Mission Baptist Conservatrice
Baptist Union of Trinidad & Tobago
Spiritual Baptist
Cayman Baptist Association
Convention of Baptist Churches of Puerto Rico
Jamaica Baptist Union
Caribbean Baptist Fellowship
Caribbean Baptist Federation

 

[Jarthur001]

Still waiting on the dangers of Calvinism.

Now would be a good time to post them. Come on guys...At least one.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I saw no indication that anyone or Pastor Larry was offended by the idiomatic expression that has been used for many many years.

I wasn't offended. I think it is silly and misguided. Calvinism is not "like" a greased pig. It is pretty clear and easy to understand. You seem content to continually miss the point however.

 

[gb93433]

I wasn't offended. I think it is silly and misguided. Calvinism is not "like" a greased pig. It is pretty clear and easy to understand. You seem content to continually miss the point however.

Then perhaps you give me your point because I have met and read about many who call themselves calvinists and are all over the page on so many subjects which includes soteriology.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Then perhaps you give me your point because I have met and read about many who call themselves calvinists and are all over the page on so many subjects which includes soteriology.

I have given my point many many times, including in this very thread. The point is that on soteriology, Calvinism agrees on some main key points, such as man's complete sinfulness and God's electing grace. It does not, and never has, agreed on every little detail of those.

If you have studied Calvinism, you know there is widespread agreement on what it stands for. You know it is not about following Calvin. And my bet is that you have studied it enough to know this. So it boggles my mind as to why you make this silly accusations that Calvinists follow a man. Whether Calvinists are right or wrong, they believe what they do because they believe it is what Scripture teaches.

So rather than asking questions about how many people have read Calvin, since it doesn't really matter, if you want to know something ask about Scripture.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Jarthur001

You quoted the words of John Piper.........

“... My aim in this appendix is to show from Scripture that the simultaneous existence of God's will for "all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4) and his will to elect unconditionally those who will actually be saved is not a sign of divine schizophrenia or exegetical confusion. A corresponding aim is to show that unconditional election therefore does not contradict biblical expressions of God's compassion for all people and does not nullify sincere offers of salvation to everyone who is lost among all the peoples of the world.”

Then I said...........

“Here we have a Calvinist, that in light of 1Timothy 2:4, seems to be open to the possibility that he is wrong.”

Then you asked..........

“Where does he say Calvinism is wrong?”

--------------------------------------------------
Well here it is again(the words of John Piper)........

“God's will for "all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4) and his will to elect unconditionally those who will actually be saved is not a sign of divine schizophrenia or exegetical confusion.”

--------------------------------------------------
Now, you and others have said several times, that “we don’t understand Calvinism”;
(Maybe you are right!)

I just have one question to ask........
“Can a person be a Calvinist and accept the free will of man?”

If this is a case, than your right, I have misjudged Calvinism!

 

[Pastor Larry]

“Can a person be a Calvinist and accept the free will of man?”

He has to accept the free will of man. The Bible teaches that man is free to act according to his nature. Calvinism fully affirms that.

 

[webdog]

He has to accept the free will of man. The Bible teaches that man is free to act according to his nature. Calvinism fully affirms that.

Chapter and verse?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Chapter and verse?

All over, but how about this for starters: Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Notice how living after the lusts of the flesh is the product of being a child of wrath by nature.

Do you think man is forced into living after the lusts of his flesh? Or is it his free will?

 

[HankD]

Chapter and verse?

Acts 5
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

 

[gb93433]

All over, but how about this for starters: Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Notice how living after the lusts of the flesh is the product of being a child of wrath by nature.

Do you think man is forced into living after the lusts of his flesh? Or is it his free will?

How would you explain the two natures? They are still at battle in the Christian.

 

[Pastor Larry]

How would you explain the two natures? They are still at battle in the Christian.

An unbeliever is an old man with an old nature. A believer is a new man (the old man has died) with two natures that war against each other. So while the unbeliever with an old nature can do nothing of a new nature, the believer with both natures can either sin or obey God.