The high cost of a believer rejecting Jesus Christ

[icthus]

Originally posted by OSAS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi OSAS;
You said this not me;

the entire New Testement is full of lies,

Hey! That was a pretty good job of ripping a line of my post out of context! Of course all that practice you have had doing the same with scripture must attribute to your grand talent. </font>[/QUOTE]OSAS

IF YOU THINK THAT WHAT I HAVE SAID IN MY OP IS NOT FROM THE BIBLE. THEN YOU ARE FREE TO PROVE ME WRONG

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi OSAS;
You said this not me;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> the entire New Testement is full of lies,

It's nice to know you have no respect for Gods word. You have such a pitiful defense of your false theology that it is laughable. Nice try though. Never know you might do better next time. NOT;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Holy cow. ur not in junior high or something are you mike?

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi OSAS;
You said this not me;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> the entire New Testement is full of lies,

It's nice to know you have no respect for Gods word. You have such a pitiful defense of your false theology that it is laughable. Nice try though. Never know you might do better next time. NOT;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Holy cow. ur not in junior high or something are you mike? </font>[/QUOTE]Hey Whetstone, I thought that you were Mr know it all. How come that NO calvinist has dealt with my OP? I have read what Larry has posted, and true to his form, most of which is a load of nonsense, as always not dealing with the facts.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by icthus:
All you have done here is to follow Whetstone and rant!

have i been known to 'rant?' this is news to me.

 

[here now]

True believers do not reject Christ.

For you are in Him and He is in you. And I have never seen it anywhere in the Bible tell us how to get Him out of us.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by icthus:
Hey Whetstone, I thought that you were Mr know it all. How come that NO calvinist has dealt with my OP? I have read what Larry has posted, and true to his form, most of which is a load of nonsense, as always not dealing with the facts.

I can't speak for the others on this board, but i didn't reply to this thread because it flatly didn't seem interesting to me. but i suppose i'll offer my insight in the next post.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by icthus:
Hey Whetstone, I thought that you were Mr know it all. How come that NO calvinist has dealt with my OP? I have read what Larry has posted, and true to his form, most of which is a load of nonsense, as always not dealing with the facts.

I can't speak for the others on this board, but i didn't reply to this thread because it flatly didn't seem interesting to me. but i suppose i'll offer my insight in the next post. </font>[/QUOTE]You mean you can't deal with the passage?

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by here now:
True believers do not reject Christ.

For you are in Him and He is in you. And I have never seen it anywhere in the Bible tell us how to get Him out of us.

Get real. The Bible is not full of warnings for nothing. The Jews in the OT were warned about departing from the Lord, and see what happened to them. Solomon was warned about following other God's, which he did, and see what happened to him. Hebrews is full of warnings for Christians who will not continue in the faith. If you think that Salvation is a one-sided thing, then why does Paul say, "work out your salvation"?

You guys have got to stop burying your heads in the sand and accept the Truth as Scripture tells it, and not some clever Calvinistic twist

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

OSAS;
I figured you'd appreciate it sense you did say it and only came here to ridicule and not participate in a adult converstaion. Your defense in poor at best
Mike

 

[here now]

Icthus says:
Get real. The Bible is not full of warnings for nothing. The Jews in the OT were warned about departing from the Lord, and see what happened to them.

HR-
OT was before:He in us, us in Him.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Whetstone;
Seems you're callin for something that doesn't exsist.

Holy cow.

Well maybe you're a Hindu I here they still worship Cows. Notice the two word sentence!

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by here now:
Icthus says:
Get real. The Bible is not full of warnings for nothing. The Jews in the OT were warned about departing from the Lord, and see what happened to them.

HR-
OT was before:He in us, us in Him.

As usual, another one who can't read. I also mentioned the Book of Hebrews. For your information, this is in the New Testament

 

[whetstone]

Well before getting into the end of Hebrews 10, I would first ask you Icthus if you have read the middle of the chapter. Let's consider these verses first (since context is always important):

Hbr 10:14-17 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The writer of Hebrews prefaces by saying that God will not remember the sins of those that are saved any longer. He has perfected them forever. He has written His laws into their hearts. These are some fairly strong words that you must deal with if you are to use the end of the chapter to contradict these words.

Now we get into the 2 verses before the verses in your OP:

Hbr 10:26,27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The writer has already told us that believers are purged from sin forever and have the laws of God written in their hearts- so when he speaks of these that have sinned willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, he is apparently talking about unbelievers. This is further hammered home by the use of the word 'adversaries' at the end of verse 27. so the preface to verses 28-31 is those that have a knowledge of the truth but have rejected it.

Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

This is referring to an unbeliever. Since God has written His law in a believer's heart (earlier in the chapter) the believer cannot despise the law of Moses.

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

so the question is- does this word 'sanctified' refer to the sanctification of a believer or something else? Context of the entire chapter up to this point is speaking of an unbeliever, so it's not unfair to investigate the matter.

The key to this verse is located in another verse:

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

There are some that are sanctified to the church and are following after the pictures of baptism and the Lord's supper. They appear to be believers, but are inwardly apostate. They have a knowledge of the truth and are even 'religious' but do not truly accept Christ as savior. Matthew Henry speaks of this verse:

the blood of Christ, with which the covenant was purchased and sealed, and wherewith Christ himself was consecrated, or wherewith the apostate was sanctified, that is, baptized, visibly initiated into the new covenant by baptism, and admitted to the Lord’s supper. Observe, There is a kind of sanctification which persons may partake of and yet fall away: they may be distinguished by common gifts and graces, by an outward profession, by a form of godliness, a course of duties, and a set of privileges, and yet fall away finally. Men who have seemed before to have the blood of Christ in high esteem may come to account it an unholy thing, no better than the blood of a malefactor, though it was the world’s ransom, and every drop of it of infinite value.

Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Don't get hung up on the word 'judge.' It is the Greek word 'krino' and it means 'to discern or seperate.' The writer isn't saying believers will be judged for sin, but that God will judge who are His. This makes a whole lot more sense in context of the whole passage.

Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Amen. and those that profess to be believers but inwardly are not shall experience this fear someday.

 

[whetstone]

a better (and Biblical) title for this thread would be:

"The high cost of a false professor rejecting Jesus Christ"

 

[here now]

Comment made to HN by Icthus:
As usual, another one who can't read.

Regarding your nasty comment: I would appreciate your respect when you are conversing with me. You may be into the back and forth belittling of persons. But I am totally not into that....Maybe you have not read my other posts on this.....but He Who is in me keeps me from entering into the back and forth put downs that are running rampant on the Baptist Board.

I don't mind that you pointed out that I seemingly avoided Hebrews, but the nasty comment was not neccessary.
I am at work and will respond on the other later.

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by here now:
Comment made to HN by Icthus:
As usual, another one who can't read.

Regarding your nasty comment: I would appreciate your respect when you are conversing with me. You may be into the back and forth belittling of persons. But I am totally not into that....Maybe you have not read my other posts on this.....but He Who is in me keeps me from entering into the back and forth put downs that are running rampant on the Baptist Board.

I don't mind that you pointed out that I seemingly avoided Hebrews, but the nasty comment was not neccessary.
I am at work and will respond on the other later.

There is nothing nasty about saying that you can't read, when you come back to criticise what I write without actually fullly reading my post

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by whetstone:
Well before getting into the end of Hebrews 10, I would first ask you Icthus if you have read the middle of the chapter. Let's consider these verses first (since context is always important):

Hbr 10:14-17 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The writer of Hebrews prefaces by saying that God will not remember the sins of those that are saved any longer. He has perfected them forever. He has written His laws into their hearts. These are some fairly strong words that you must deal with if you are to use the end of the chapter to contradict these words.

Now we get into the 2 verses before the verses in your OP:

Hbr 10:26,27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The writer has already told us that believers are purged from sin forever and have the laws of God written in their hearts- so when he speaks of these that have sinned willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, he is apparently talking about unbelievers. This is further hammered home by the use of the word 'adversaries' at the end of verse 27. so the preface to verses 28-31 is those that have a knowledge of the truth but have rejected it.

Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

This is referring to an unbeliever. Since God has written His law in a believer's heart (earlier in the chapter) the believer cannot despise the law of Moses.

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

so the question is- does this word 'sanctified' refer to the sanctification of a believer or something else? Context of the entire chapter up to this point is speaking of an unbeliever, so it's not unfair to investigate the matter.

The key to this verse is located in another verse:

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

There are some that are sanctified to the church and are following after the pictures of baptism and the Lord's supper. They appear to be believers, but are inwardly apostate. They have a knowledge of the truth and are even 'religious' but do not truly accept Christ as savior. Matthew Henry speaks of this verse:

the blood of Christ, with which the covenant was purchased and sealed, and wherewith Christ himself was consecrated, or wherewith the apostate was sanctified, that is, baptized, visibly initiated into the new covenant by baptism, and admitted to the Lord’s supper. Observe, There is a kind of sanctification which persons may partake of and yet fall away: they may be distinguished by common gifts and graces, by an outward profession, by a form of godliness, a course of duties, and a set of privileges, and yet fall away finally. Men who have seemed before to have the blood of Christ in high esteem may come to account it an unholy thing, no better than the blood of a malefactor, though it was the world’s ransom, and every drop of it of infinite value.

Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Don't get hung up on the word 'judge.' It is the Greek word 'krino' and it means 'to discern or seperate.' The writer isn't saying believers will be judged for sin, but that God will judge who are His. This makes a whole lot more sense in context of the whole passage.

Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Amen. and those that profess to be believers but inwardly are not shall experience this fear someday.

Whetstone, if you are saying that the warning given in this passage, espacially in verse 29, is to the unsaved. Then it makes no sense at all. It is very evident from the language employed, that a saved person is meant. You cannt isolate the word "sanctified", like larry does and say that it can be used for an unsaved person. Keep within the context, which reads: "counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing". Alsom, you have failed to notice that it says "the Lord will judge His people". Regardless of how you render "judge", that fact remains that the passage is speaking of "His (that is, God's) people". Are the unsaved also called "God's people"?

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by icthus:
Whetstone, if you are saying that the warning given in this passage, espacially in verse 29, is to the unsaved. Then it makes no sense at all. It is very evident from the language employed, that a saved person is meant. You cannt isolate the word "sanctified", like larry does and say that it can be used for an unsaved person. Keep within the context, which reads: "counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing". Alsom, you have failed to notice that it says "the Lord will judge His people". Regardless of how you render "judge", that fact remains that the passage is speaking of "His (that is, God's) people". Are the unsaved also called "God's people"?

You have basically two legs you stand on with your interpretation of this passage:

Leg #1- That sanctification is speaking of the sanctification of a believer rather than a false sanctification (setting apart) of a false professor.

Leg #2- That the word 'judge' means 'judgement for sin.'

If you would like to interpret sanctification as the sanctification of a believer, you have still yet to reconcile this with the middle of the passage where eternal security is very plainly taught.

If you would like to interpret 'judge' as anything other than 'discern or separate' then I would like to see you do so with a Greek Lexicon.

You only have two legs to stand on and neither of them appear to have any strength to them.

 

[David Michael Harris]

In Hebrews it talks about' what child does not get disciplined. If your not disciplined your illegitimate and not a child of God'.

I think the key to this question about whether you can or cannot lose Salvation lies within that verse.

God will and does discipline His children. As to the extent, Gods will is for us to be saved.

Jesus told a parable about the unfaithful servant who was cut up and thrown outside with the unbelievers. Where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God is so lovely why would we even wish to rebel, backsliding is a terrible thing and needs to be addressed more within church I think, also discouragment can make a Christian angry and anger can lead to sin.

Its a difficult area, its better to think positive than negative and just get on being the best Christian we can be

David
&lt;°)))&gt;&lt;

 

[whetstone]

sweet fish david!