The Holocaust God's Judgment

[Grasshopper]

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So therefore all time statements are useless to us? God was unable to put into words, we could understand, His timetable for events?

Granted, it is not unreasonable to use an expression of imminence or brevity in reference to a relatively long period of time, (II Cor. 4:17) but it is biblically unreasonable to interpret every statement of eschatological imminence throughout the New Testament as meaning "2,000 years later." If we are going to claim scriptural support for such a hermeneutical approach, the only option is to make II Peter 3:8 ("With the Lord a day is like a thousand years") a "Code Key" that unlocks the "secret" meaning of the Spirit. But not only is that method Gnostic-like, it makes eschatology (and ultimately, soteriology) utterly impossible to understand correctly without the mystical elucidation of II Peter 3:8 (and Ps. 90:4).

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
perhaps the holocaust is following the biblical pattern of a collective punishment for the collective sin of the jewish nation. all jews are responible for each other, and can be punished for each other's transgressions...

Yet, the Jews were not the only ones targeted in the Holocaust!

These theories of the Holocaust being God's wrath against the Jews do not take into account the plain facts of history! How can this theological interpretation of history be true if it is not based on a true history?

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Yet, the Jews were not the only ones targeted in the Holocaust!

concerning suffering, jews have their promises from god, christians are promised that everything works out for their good (including suffering), but to all the unsaved there are no promises made at all - every moment they are not cast into hell is an expression of god's mercy, which they have no claim to.

so, what's the problem here?

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Are you changing your view to the idea that the Holocaust was God's wrath against humanity - not just Jews?

If not, then how do you uphold your theory since many of the people who were murdered by Nazis were not Jews?

BaptistBeliever,

I don't think any reasonable man can deny that the second World War was a demonstration of God's wrath against the whole world, albeit only a foretaste of the wrath to come. But the Holocaust was directd especially against the Jews and, therefore, it is no stretch to say that it is a particular judgment against them.

There were people other than Jews who suffered in the Assyrian and Babylonian holocausts against Israel. That does not change the fact that God said these were special judgements on the Jews in fullfillment of His predictions found in the books of Moses.

You pointed out in your other post that sodomites were among those who were targeted by the holocaust. And this is supposed to lessen the suggestion that is was a judgement of God on them? Remember Sodom and Gomorrah!

Many times when God's judgement fell on Israel there were righteous who perished with the wicked, as well as "sucklings" (to use God's terminology) who could scarcely be thought to be the objects of God's wrath. This does not change the fact that the judgments themselves are brought on the multitudes who do evil.

You would be hard put to prove there were any great number of godly men in Europe during the second World War considering it is a land given over to the idolatry of Catholcism and infidelity. And it is certain that there were no great number of godly Jews, considering the Jewish people has, in mass, rejected the only Hope of righteousness.

Jesus said to the women of Jerusalem that the day would come when they would say,

"Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us."

I do not claim that this is necessarily a particular reference to the Holocaust, but it is no differnet in kind than if it were. Therefore I do not comprehend why the suggestion that the Holocasut was a judgement of God should seem so astonishing. Frankly, I don't know how else this monumental event in the history of the Jews could be interpreted.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[timothy 1769]

1/3 of all jews died in the holocaust. surely this has some theological meaning?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Yet, the Jews were not the only ones targeted in the Holocaust!

concerning suffering, jews have their promises from god, christians are promised that everything works out for their good (including suffering), but to all the unsaved there are no promises made at all - every moment they are not cast into hell is an expression of god's mercy, which they have no claim to.

so, what's the problem here? </font>[/QUOTE]First it is argue that the Holocaust was specifically God's wrath toward the Jews, then when that is challenged by the actual facts, you claim that it is God's wrath against everyone.

You need to pick your position. You can't allege that both are specifically true.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Are you changing your view to the idea that the Holocaust was God's wrath against humanity - not just Jews?

If not, then how do you uphold your theory since many of the people who were murdered by Nazis were not Jews?

I don't think any reasonable man can deny that the second World War was a demonstration of God's wrath against the whole world, albeit only a foretaste of the wrath to come. But the Holocaust was directd especially against the Jews and, therefore, it is no stretch to say that it is a particular judgment against them. </font>[/QUOTE]Part of the Holocaust was directed at the Jews, but not all of it.

You pointed out in your other post that sodomites were among those who were targeted by the holocaust. And this is supposed to lessen the suggestion that is was a judgement of God on them?

1.) Christians who resisted Hitler were murdered. Does that mean that God approved of those Christians who did not resist Hitler?

2.) Handicapped people were systematically murdered. Does that mean that God was showing his wrath against those who are handicapped?

3.) Russians faced severe hardship and were often murdered and sent to the death camps one they could not be used for slave labor anymore. Does that mean that God was pouring out his wrath on Russians?

Many times when God's judgement fell on Israel there were righteous who perished with the wicked, as well as "sucklings" (to use God's terminology) who could scarcely be thought to be the objects of God's wrath. This does not change the fact that the judgments themselves are brought on the multitudes who do evil.

Jews were an ethnic minority in Europe before the war.

You would be hard put to prove there were any great number of godly men in Europe during the second World War considering it is a land given over to the idolatry of Catholcism and infidelity.

You would be hard pressed to prove that there weren’t. Since you are making the allegation, the proof is for you to provide.

Therefore I do not comprehend why the suggestion that the Holocasut was a judgement of God should seem so astonishing.

It’s not astonishing, it’s just obviously wrong.

Frankly, I don't know how else this monumental event in the history of the Jews could be interpreted.

Just because you can’t figure out another answer does not mean you are correct.

Sinful people do sinful things. Human sin has the capacity to do everything evil that was done during World War II without the need to attribute it to God.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
1/3 of all jews died in the holocaust. surely this has some theological meaning?

Humanity is profoundly wicked.

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Mark Osgatharp

I don't agree, but do you think that slavery is God's judgment on blacks? Same logic.

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by timothy 1769:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Yet, the Jews were not the only ones targeted in the Holocaust!

concerning suffering, jews have their promises from god, christians are promised that everything works out for their good (including suffering), but to all the unsaved there are no promises made at all - every moment they are not cast into hell is an expression of god's mercy, which they have no claim to.

so, what's the problem here? </font>[/QUOTE]First it is argue that the Holocaust was specifically God's wrath toward the Jews, then when that is challenged by the actual facts, you claim that it is God's wrath against everyone.

You need to pick your position. You can't allege that both are specifically true. </font>[/QUOTE]why not? can god not accomplish two ends through one action?

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
Mark Osgatharp

I don't agree, but do you think that slavery is God's judgment on blacks? Same logic.

do blacks have a covenantal relationship with god tying their prosperity and peace in this world to their obedience?

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Part of the Holocaust was directed at the Jews, but not all of it.

The Holocaust was a directed at the Jews primarily.

Christians who resisted Hitler were murdered. Does that mean that God approved of those Christians who did not resist Hitler?

Godly Jews perished in the Babylonian captivity, as Isaiah said of that time, "The righteous perish and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come."

Your argument falls.

Handicapped people were systematically murdered. Does that mean that God was showing his wrath against those who are handicapped?

Being handicapped does not make a man godly. Being handicapped does not exempt a man from judgement.

Furthermore, "sucklings" were specifically said by God to perish when God raised up judgement on Israel. Who could be less innocent than a suckling babe?

Your argument falls.

Russians faced severe hardship and were often murdered and sent to the death camps one they could not be used for slave labor anymore. Does that mean that God was pouring out his wrath on Russians?

Ah, yes, the Russians, that pure folk who had, in the decades prior to World War II enthroned atheism and sorely oppressed the godly few who lived among them. Keep on going, BaptistBeliever, you are making my case very well!

Jews were an ethnic minority in Europe before the war.

But the Holocaust itself was primarily directed against them.

You would be hard put to prove there were any great number of godly men in Europe during the second World War considering it is a land given over to the idolatry of Catholcism and infidelity. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You would be hard pressed to prove that there weren’t.

</font>[/QUOTE]Seeing Europe was predominantly Roman Catholic and Liberal Protestant the case is made.

Therefore I do not comprehend why the suggestion that the Holocasut was a judgement of God should seem so astonishing. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It’s not astonishing, it’s just obviously wrong.

</font>[/QUOTE].

What is so obvious about the Jews being singled out for mass extermination not being a judgement of God? How is this inconsistent with any revelation of God or His dealings with the Jews that we find recorded in the Scriptures?

Sinful people do sinful things. Human sin has the capacity to do everything evil that was done during World War II without the need to attribute it to God.

But the Scriptures teach that God consistently overules and directs human evil to fulfill His purpose. And He specifically promised the Jews that He would always deliver them from their enemies if they were obedient to Him. Go figure.

Question: Do you think that a Jew who was tortured and perished in the Holocaust and went to hell would today, could he return from the dead, tell you that event was anything other than the judgment of God on him?

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Why would the thought that Hitler's evil reign was God's wrath be any more offensive than the fact that Nebuchadnezzar's evil reign was God's wrath?

Because this wasn't a war againt a people for religious reasons but a war derived from the evil maniacle attempt to anialate anyone who was not tall blonde, blue eyed, of optimum health a "Master Race". I've seen this thread use sodomites as a rationale for this viewpoint. But how do you account for the gypsy's, Catholic clergymen, blind, deaf, infirm, brunette, red head, short, old? Not to mention anyone who opposed Hitler.

If Hitlers Aryan Master Race ideal, the fuel behind the Holocaust , were truly the wrath of God, then wouldn't that mean that Hitler was right? The only people that had God's blessing were Tall, Blonde, Blue Eyed and completely healthy? Because everyone who did not fit that criteria was targetted by this regime.

Do you know anything about this subject? Or are you just trying to get it to fit your arguement?

 

[ScottEmerson]

I think God was really after Dietrich Boenhoffer - I mean he must have REALLY offended God and all, being the wonderful theologian that he was.

Perhaps God is blessing the Jewish people now considering that per capita they are more wealthy than the non-Jews. Why is that?

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by WisdomSeeker:
If Hitlers Aryan Master Race ideal, the fuel behind the Holocaust, were truly the wrath of God, then wouldn't that mean that Hitler was right?

WisdomSeeker,

The same reason that neither the Assyrians nor Babylonians were right when God used them to punish Israel. We are told both in Isaiah and Jeremiah that the Lord used these wicked empires to judge Israel, as well as other pagan nations, and then judged them for their very acts against these nations.

This is what as known as the providence of God. God overules and directs the acts of evil men to bring about His purposes - whether in judgement on in mercy. God's providential use of evil men does not exhonerate them and God will still judge them for their evil.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Perhaps God is blessing the Jewish people now considering that per capita they are more wealthy than the non-Jews. Why is that?

Scott,

Wealth within itself is no sign of God's blessing. God did not promise the godly would be wealthy nor that the wicked would be poor. To the contrary, the Scripture says,

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you."

Mark Osgatharp

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Wealth within itself is no sign of God's blessing. God did not promise the godly would be wealthy nor that the wicked would be poor. To the contrary, the Scripture says,

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you."

true, but what about this?

Deuteronomy 7
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: 13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. 14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.

perhaps this only applies in israel, "in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee"?

 

[Matt Black]

Mark,

I have to say to you that I find your views highly offensive, and highly inconsistent. They are offensive and blasphemous to God, portraying Him as genocidal and siding with the Nazis. They are offensively anti-Semitic, regarding the Jews as having so dreadfully offended God so much more than the rest of us that He just has to wipe them out. And they are offensive personally to me as a European Christian -apparently we're all godless Catholics or atheists who deserve everything we get and whom God hates with a vengeance. (You might as well go and join up with Jerry Falwell and say that 9/11 was God's judgment on a 'godless' America.) Indeed, God quite clearly hates Europeans so much that He used Hitler to imprison and execute His people such as Martin Niemoller, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Helmuth James von Moltke.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
but it is inconceivable that some people refuse to admit the obvious.

Ok, here goes:

101 Preterist Time-Indicators

Come on, Grasshopper. I have already told you that these words pose no problem for those who take the time to understand them and study what they mean. You have taken English words as we use them today. But these words originally were different and you must understand them there. I have explanations for all those. They have been explained in so many places for so long a time it is inexcusable to continue on believing that they cannot be answered. I am talking about undeniably obvious words, words such as I gave above, words used in clear prophecy such as the New Covenant and other places. Don't play these silly little games.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:

Deuteronomy 7
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: 13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. 14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.

perhaps this only applies in israel, "in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee"?

Timothy,

God promised that Israel would be a prosperous nation so long as they obeyed him. He did not promise riches to every individual but that the nation would be so prosperous as to provide for all. He gave commandment for the care of the poor among them which proves He did not intend that all would be wealthy.

Mark Osgatharp