The Holocaust God's Judgment

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I have to say to you that I find your views highly offensive

The prophecies of judgment against Israel by Isaiah and Jeremiah were found to be highly offensive. Even Christ's message was found to be highly offencive.

They are offensive and blasphemous to God, portraying Him as genocidal and siding with the Nazis.

God no more "sided" with the Nazis than He sided with the Babylonians or Assyrians when He, by His own admission, raised them up against Israel. God did not "side" with these evil empires. He used their evil deeds to bring about the judgment He intended at the time.

Moreover, God singled out several ethnic groups in the Scriptures for total destruction and therefore it it not at all unbiblical to say He "genocidal." However, I should clarify that His particular hatred for certain ethnic groups had nothing to do with the ethnicity, but with their particular hatred, as a people, for Him.

I should also clarify that, whatever judgements God brings on the Jews, they will never...never be anhilated because He has promised always to preserve a seed of believing Jews in fulfillment of His promises made to the Jewish fathers. Therefore I would never classify His actions toward the Jews as "genocidal" which would indicate an intention to wipe them out.

They are offensively anti-Semitic, regarding the Jews as having so dreadfully offended God so much more than the rest of us that He just has to wipe them out.

My friend, God will wipe "us all" out in the end - all that is who do not receive King Jesus as Savior. The only reason the Jews are singled out for particular judgments is because of the special opportunity they have had to know God and yet have not taken advantage of it and God explicitly said He would make them an example to the world.

Again I say with Paul,

"Whatsoever things the law says it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God."

And they are offensive personally to me as a European Christian -apparently we're all godless Catholics or atheists who deserve everything we get and whom God hates with a vengeance.

Not all, but most Europeans are Catholics and Liberal Protestants which, for any practical purposes, is no better than being an athiest, and you have a good smattering of those too.

Furthermore, apart from the redeeming grace of God in Christ every man is a man whom God hates with a vengeance and will get God's vengeance as he deserves.

(You might as well go and join up with Jerry Falwell and say that 9/11 was God's judgment on a 'godless' America.)

9/11 was God's judgement on 'godless' America, as has been every other national calamity that ever befell us. And I remind you that, while God spared America the horror of having extensive combat on our territory, there were many Americans who perished in that judgment along with Europeans.

Indeed, God quite clearly hates Europeans so much that He used Hitler to imprison and execute His people such as Martin Niemoller, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Helmuth James von Moltke.

I do not know enough about these men to comment about their Christianity or lack thereof. However, simply because they were some sort of "Christian" who suffered at the hand of Hitler does not mean they were godly men.

And if they were godly men who suffered at the hand of Hitler, then they simply illustrate the biblical truth that it is through much tribulation that we must enter the kingdom of God.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by timothy 1769:

Deuteronomy 7
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: 13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. 14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.

perhaps this only applies in israel, "in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee"?

Timothy,

God promised that Israel would be a prosperous nation so long as they obeyed him. He did not promise riches to every individual but that the nation would be so prosperous as to provide for all. He gave commandment for the care of the poor among them which proves He did not intend that all would be wealthy.

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]do you think the "thee"s instead of "ye"s have any significance here? perhaps the commandments about the poor were given since he knew the jews wouldn't live up to their side of the covenant.

i think it's very intersting the switch from ye ("if ye harken to these judgements") to thee ("and he will love thee") in the above passage, indicating collective responsibility.

 

[timothy 1769]

what it really means to be chosen:

Amos 3:1
Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, 2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Part of the Holocaust was directed at the Jews, but not all of it.

The Holocaust was a directed at the Jews primarily. </font>[/QUOTE]I don’t have the time or space to give you a history lesson, but the primary motivation for the mass killings by the Nazis before and during World War II lies in theories of eugenics combined with an occult concepts of an Aryan master race from German mythology. Hitler exploited European anti-Semitism to move Germans and other like-minded people to enact his murderous program. Yes, Jews suffered horribly, but many other people groups did as well.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Christians who resisted Hitler were murdered. Does that mean that God approved of those Christians who did not resist Hitler?

Godly Jews perished in the Babylonian captivity, as Isaiah said of that time, "The righteous perish and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come."

Your argument falls. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. You’ve shifted your premise in order to side-step my point.

You alleged that Jews were being judged because of their sin because they were murdered. Yet you allege here that God-fearing Christians were killed to spare then from the evil yet to come. The way you reason, there’s no way to hold you to objective facts. I could say that the God-fearing people were being judged by God because they were murdered and the Jews were murdered to take them away from the evil yet to come.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Handicapped people were systematically murdered. Does that mean that God was showing his wrath against those who are handicapped?

Being handicapped does not make a man godly. Being handicapped does not exempt a man from judgement.

Furthermore, "sucklings" were specifically said by God to perish when God raised up judgement on Israel. Who could be less innocent than a suckling babe?

Your argument falls. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. You’ve shifted your premise to sidestep my point.

For what it’s worth, how do you know that the Holocaust was not God’s wrath poured out on handicapped people and the Jews, gypsies, confessing Christians and such were just caught up in the judgment? After all, the handicapped people were the first to be sterilized and then murdered by the Nazis. The murders of Jewish people came later.

Using your kind of reasoning, the Holocaust was about destroying handicapped people because very few of them survived except for those who were hidden or escaped from German hands. Many, many more Jews survived.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Russians faced severe hardship and were often murdered and sent to the death camps one they could not be used for slave labor anymore. Does that mean that God was pouring out his wrath on Russians?

Ah, yes, the Russians, that pure folk who had, in the decades prior to World War II enthroned atheism and sorely oppressed the godly few who lived among them. Keep on going, BaptistBeliever, you are making my case very well! </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. You’ve shifted your premise to sidestep my point.

You were making the case that the Holocaust was about God’s wrath on Jews specifically, not just a general judgment on sinners.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You would be hard put to prove there were any great number of godly men in Europe during the second World War considering it is a land given over to the idolatry of Catholcism and infidelity. </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You would be hard pressed to prove that there weren’t.

</font>[/QUOTE]Seeing Europe was predominantly Roman Catholic and Liberal Protestant the case is made. </font>[/QUOTE]You’re quite a lawyer! I can understand why you would believe that there were few godly people in Europe since you also don’t believe there are many godly people on BaptistBoard because we don’t share your views! Do you think that if Europe were filled with independent fundamental Baptists with Landmarkist tendencies that World War II wouldn’t have happened?

And what about the Japanese? Where do they fit in to your views of judgment? Was their horrific cruelty to other peoples and nations before and during World War II God’s judgment? Was the city of Nanking, China being judged by God when the Japanese butchered men, women and children with such cruelty that it sickened the Nazi observers. (Interestingly enough, it is my understanding that the Nazi observers rescued a number of Chinese people from death at the hands of the Japanese!)

Question: Do you think that a Jew who was tortured and perished in the Holocaust and went to hell would today, could he return from the dead, tell you that event was anything other than the judgment of God on him?

Yes.

----

You seem to keep shifting your premise.

Please tell me which premise you are proposing here so we can discuss it properly.

Do you propose that:

1.) The Holocaust was God’s judgment on Jewish people in Europe and other people who were targeted and suffered the same fate were collateral damage from God’s wrath?

-and/or-

2.) World War II was God’s judgment on Europe and the mass murder of Jewish people was merely a part of God’s judgment on Europe.

-and/or-

3.) All evil that occurs in the world is directed by God toward those on whom He wants to inflict his wrath – including bystanders who are not guilty of the specific sin that God is judging.

Which one(s) do you choose? (If you don’t like mine, please write your own.)

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Please tell me which premise you are proposing here so we can discuss it properly.

My original proposal was that, whereas the Scriptures single out the Jews nationally as being special objects of God's protective care as a people when they obey Him, that when they are subjected to such specific and horrible affliction, as they were in the Holocaust, it is proof positive of God's faithfulness to keep His word relative to them.

Let me ask, are you at all familiar with the contents of Leviticus chapter 26 and Deuteronomy chapter 28?

You are the one who brought in all the side issues (which may be legitimate questions in themselves, but in no way affect my original proposition) and then have the gall to accuse me of side-stepping when I give you Biblical answers.

I suppose those who hated Isaiah because he prophesied of the coming judgment of God on Israel could have accused him of side-stepping when:

1. He prophesied that the Babylonians would also wreak judgment on many other nations.

2. He stated that, during this judgement, the righteous would perish with the wicked.

3. He stated that God would, after using the Babylonians as a sword to punish Israel, would punish them worse than He punished Israel.

What I propose is:

a. God overules the works of evil men, including evil empires, to bring about His purposes.

b. God deals with Israel is a special way because He singled them out from all other nations and gave them a Law and told them the specific consequences, both of obedience and obedience.

c. That World War II, though caused by wicked men, was used by God to bring judgement on the world - the Germans, the Americans, the English, the Japanese, the Chinese, et al.

d. That the Holocaust, which was specifically directed at the Jews, is proof of the truth of Leviticus chapter 26 and Deuteronomy chapter 28, that when they disobey the Lord they will be subjected to horrific temporal judgments and is, at least in part, a fulfillment of Paul's declaration that,

"The wrath is come on them to the uttermost."

e. That, whereas the Scripture says,"whatsoever things the law says it says to them who are under the law [the Jews] that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God," we would all do well to take heed to the clear message God is sending by such events.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[john6:63]

IMO, I believe a lot of answers can be found in the OT book of Habakkuk. If you flip too fast through the OT you’ll miss it.

The prophet Habakkuk asks God why He seems to be delaying judgment on Judah for their sinful ways. God tells him not to worry about it and to look at the surrounding nations and from them will come a nation that will be My instrument of judgment on sinful Judah.

Habakkuk can’t believe that God was about to rise up the Chaldeans (Babylonians), a nation far worse than Judah, to be Gods instrument of judgment. But God did use the Chaldeans and of course we know what happened to the Chaldeans later.

As horrific the Holocaust was, it looked as if God may have used Hitler and his henchmen as His instrument of judgment. Just as God will use the Great Tribulation to woo His people (Israel) back to God.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WisdomSeeker:
If Hitlers Aryan Master Race ideal, the fuel behind the Holocaust, were truly the wrath of God, then wouldn't that mean that Hitler was right, the only people that had God's blessing were Tall, Blonde, Blue Eyed and completely healthy? Because everyone who did not fit that criteria was targetted by this regime?

WisdomSeeker,

The same reason that neither the Assyrians nor Babylonians were right when God used them to punish Israel. We are told both in Isaiah and Jeremiah that the Lord used these wicked empires to judge Israel, as well as other pagan nations, and then judged them for their very acts against these nations.

This is what as known as the providence of God. God overules and directs the acts of evil men to bring about His purposes - whether in judgement on in mercy. God's providential use of evil men does not exhonerate them and God will still judge them for their evil.

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]Again, I think you missed the point I was making.

This was not a religious war but racial cleansing like so many other wars with genocide as the goal.