The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

"1. I'd hardly call the teaching of the Magisterium over the last 1900+ years a matter of 'private interpretation'! However, as I keep saying, a glance in just the Theology Forum here will show you the pernicious effects of really private interpretation, and why this Scripture forbids it."

A glance at the Theology forum here will show Romans 14...and other passages...being lived out:

"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind...Who are you to judge anothers servant?"

The scriptures are clear that concerning non-foundational issues we have freedom regarding our convictions. Its actually an exceedingly healthy thing, as you would expect considering its Gods idea.

As an example, the arminians serve to help keep the calvinists from going to far in one direction and becoming out of balance. The calvinists help to keep the arminians from going to the same extreme in the other direction.

When you have absolutly no "checks and balances system" in place...as with the Teaching Majesterium of the CC, who are neither accountable to the scriptures or the "laity"...then you see for 1600 years now an overflow of false teaching and idolatry running rampant and unchecked for the whole world to see.

What a horrific thing it is.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Sirach]

Mike,

I'm still waiting on links from you to show me that you are correct on Catholic Church teachings. Please show me with links to a Catholic source the teachings you talk about. I can't find them anywhere in the Catechism at www.USCCB.org

And I've been looking at the footnotes also, and there is ample reference to scripture.

I want you to show me where in the Catechism it condemns anyone who believes the Gospel.

I want you to show me where in the Catechism the Church says you can work your way to Heaven.

You said you can and would, or do you admit to being wrong about Catholic teachings?

Let your yes mean yes, and your no mean no. I don't want a bunch of verses and your interpretation of them, I want a link to the Catechism to what you say is there. If it's there, you can do it... if it's not there and you are wrong, you'll avoid the answer you said you'll give and skate around it.

Do you want me to show you where the Catholic Church condemns anyone who believes the gospel?

I will if you want.

Do you want me to show you where the Catholic Church proclaims a false works justification gospel?

I will if you want.

God Bless,
Sirach

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

I want you to show me where in the Catechism it condemns anyone who believes the Gospel.

I have shown you.

As has DHK and Steaver. I have shown you...extensively...from the scriptures and from the Council of Trent cursings. I have gone "above and beyond" in showing you extensively what you asked for. Very long posts. Filled with extensive proof. So has DHK. Steaver has shown you from the Catechism.

You asked us to show you. We have shown you. Its obvious from your posts that you are a bright person. You dont appear to have any learning disorders or anything like that. You are a smart guy/gal.

We have shown you, as you have requested.

You now have a choice to make.

The gospel of Rome...which God curses in Galaciens.

Or Gods gospel, which Rome curses in the Trent declarations.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Sirach]

Mike, you have not. Snippets taken out of context are not links to the full article.

Again I am stressing that I am not saying that I agree with the Catholic Church, my whole point is to show what they actually teach. I am a lover of Christ and firmly believe that the Truth will set us free. We cannot allow our brethern to continue baring false witness to those who need Christ.

Roman Catholic teaching on justification places more emphasis on works, sacraments and obeying the law than on personal faith. In fact, Catholics are condemned if they believe they are justified by faith alone. Canon 9 of the Council of Trent states: "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification...let him be anathema." The Catholic Church teaches that the grace of justification comes, not through faith but through the sacraments, beginning with baptism.

You are mistaken on Catholic teaching. You have something taken out of context and have applied assumptions to a snippet.

Please note the word "cooperate". They don't believe you can work your way to Heaven. They believe that they must do as Christ commaned. Things that are in the bible. We have a choice to accept Christ or not, that is cooperation.

What the Catholic Church really teaches on Grace and Justification (and a couple of verses):
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm


Acts 15:11
On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
...20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Matt 16:24 - 27
Matt 25:31 - 46

From paragraph 1992 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church we read: "Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy." Paragraph 2027 teaches Catholics that they can merit the unmerited favor of God: "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life."

Again something out of context.... Here get a better picture of what they teach from the source itself....

1991
Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40...

1996
Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46


2007
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.


2008
The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.


http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm

The Catechism of the Catholic Church opposes God’s Word by teaching justification:

You are mistaken on what Catholics really believe.


God Bless,
Sirach

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Sirach:
Also,
When are you going to realize that I'm not arguing that the Catholic Church is right?!

I'm saying that you have what they teach wrong. As has been amply pointed out.

Please, get the gist that I'm not arguing for the Catholic Church. I'm pointing out what they really teach AND why. NOT that they are correct.

THERE IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE.

I know what the Catholic Church teaches.
I know what the Catholic Church saysit teaches. (There is a difference.
I know what the Catholic Church taught me.

I also know what the Bible teaches, and that is the difference between you and me.

Catholics pray to "the saints in heaven." These are dead people. Catholics are therefore praying to the dead. This is called necromancy. Catholics will deny this because of what they have been taught by their own religion, and not by the Bible. They don't know the Bible well enough to know better. The bodies of the people you are praying to are dead and in the grave. Who are you praying to then? Dead people. The resurrection has not yet taken place. These people are dead and in the grave, like every person that dies today--they are dead--including Mary.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

You posted this to me....

Mike, you have not. Snippets taken out of context are not links to the full article.

Again I am stressing that I am not saying that I agree with the Catholic Church, my whole point is to show what they actually teach. I am a lover of Christ and firmly believe that the Truth will set us free. We cannot allow our brethern to continue baring false witness to those who need Christ.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Roman Catholic teaching on justification places more emphasis on works, sacraments and obeying the law than on personal faith. In fact, Catholics are condemned if they believe they are justified by faith alone. Canon 9 of the Council of Trent states: "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification...let him be anathema." The Catholic Church teaches that the grace of justification comes, not through faith but through the sacraments, beginning with baptism.

You are mistaken on Catholic teaching. You have something taken out of context and have applied assumptions to a snippet.</font>[/QUOTE]You are attributing someone elses quote to me.

That quote you are attributing to me came from Steavers post at 8:27pm on March 8th. Its about 2 or 3 pages back. Please adress Steaver concerning that quote, since he/she said it.

But regarding your general claim, this is so simple, Sirach.

Gods gospel, the only one that will save anyone, is a gospel that will only result in salvation if it is accessed by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE. That has been shown to you. And if you dont believe the catholcs deny the gospel, just watch them come running to argue against anyone who does not add works to that gospel. Are they are liars? You say the Catholic Church does not deny we are justified through faith alone, but every Catholic I have ever spoken with in person of on these or other boards argues vehemently against that gospel truth and says it is a lie.

Are all of these Catholics liars, are they just decieved about what thier church teaches?

If people become overly legalistic after someone is born again, that is problematic...but it does not negate the salvation they have attained. It only causes them to be walking legalistically rather than in the freedom and liberty of the Spirit.

But if legalistic conditions are added to what is required to be justified, then that is a much worse problem because God has cursed that particular false gospel.

It has been shown to you that Gods gospel is justification through faith alone.

It has been shown to you...from Catholic sources...that the Catholic gospel of Rome requires that a person adds works to faith in order to be justified. This is the very false gospel that God curses in galaciens.

Also, it has been shown to you...from Catholic sources...that the Catholic Church *officially* places their CURSE on the gospel of Jesus Christ(justification through faith alone), by cursing anyone who believes that gospel.

I dont know what more we can do to help you. It almost makes me wonder if you have a whole family full of Catholics and maybe you cant bear the thought of most of them are probably not saved or something...I dont know. I'm not saying that, I'm just thinking out loud and wondering why you keep saying we arent showing you something when we have shown you about a million times.

Very frustrating.

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

DHK and Mike, I would take issue with your contention that the disagreements in the Theology Forum are trivial. I think those on millenialism are trivial personally and therefore find it both comic and tragic that they have run to such great lengths with a lot of polemic and invective; but the point is that the guys posting there DON'T consider them trivial.

But in any event, I only gave the millenialism threads as one area of disagreement. I could give you others: Calvinism v Arminianism (heck, we have an entire Forum dedicated to that!), cessationism vs charismatics, covenant theology vs dispensationalism etc, all claiming to be based on Scripture and all tending to degenerate into polemic and mutual anathematising (so much for these not being 'salvation issues' to the protagonists!). Who is right and on what basis; this is where Sola Scriptura blatantly does not work

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Bro. James]

God is not the author of confusion.

Satan is the author of confusion.

Are we having difficulty with "not"?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

Thanks for backing me up! I dare you to tell those up in the Theology Forum what you just posted...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Melanie]

Catholics pray to "the saints in heaven." These are dead people. Catholics are therefore praying to the dead. This is called necromancy. Catholics will deny this because of what they have been taught by their own religion, and not by the Bible. They don't know the Bible well enough to know better. The bodies of the people you are praying to are dead and in the grave. Who are you praying to then? Dead people. The resurrection has not yet taken place. These people are dead and in the grave, like every person that dies today--they are dead--including Mary.
DHK [/QB][/QUOTE]


No-one disputes that the body of a person lies in the grave, but I for one believe that the dead persons soul persists, the soul is judged and from there your destination is Heaven or Hell....

So according to this other train of thought is the soul dead or in a emphemeral state or what?

What do you believe?

 

[Sirach]

Catholics do not pray to dead people. They believe that they are asking people and angels who are alive in Heaven to pray with them and for them.
This is what Catholics believe

Eph. 3:14-15 - that we are one family; in Heaven and on Earth, Christ's Church is Christ's faithful in Heaven and on Earth. Therefore we can ask our family to pray for us to Christ, here or in Heaven. The least in Heaven is greater than the greatest on Earth, the prayer of the rightous is very powerful.


Mike,
You mentioned the quotes so I showed you how they were wrong.


DHK,

I know what the Catholic Church teaches.
I know what the Catholic Church saysit teaches. (There is a difference.

There is no difference. The issue is you do not know.

I know what the Catholic Church taught me.

Either you were at a bad parish with bad teachers that didn't teach Catholic teachings or you missed something.


The Catholic Church can be fully backed up by their interpretation of the Scriptures.

It's funny that I've never seen a Catholic board misrepresent Baptists or other Christians. I'm sure there are a few, but I haven't seen them and I've been to many of them. The Catholic Church basically says that the Baptists disagree with them, they don't bash the Baptist churches or any other church.


Hateful talk, rumors, and baring false witness are not of Christ.

Kind of makes you wonder who follows Christ better?

If you want to get into theology, I'd be happy to on another board, one where I won't get sensored or booted because someone disagrees with me. Like the www.baptistboard.net which looks pretty straightforward and the board owner doesn't go around ripping links out of posts that he doesn't agree with.

I've got the complete writings of the first Christians up to around 700 AD from www.Logos.com and I've been reading them for over four years now. So I would love to talk theology... on another board. But, this topic is what the Church teaches, not that I agree with it, but I understand their point of view. It is unChristian to say some of the things that have been said about them on this board.


God Bless,
Sirach

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Sirach:
Catholics do not pray to dead people. They believe that they are asking people and angels who are alive in Heaven to pray with them and for them.

Explain the difference between a living person and a dead person. When a person dies how do they become alive again. Do you raise from the dead or do they wait for the resurrection? A dead person is a dead person. Why does the Catholic Church redefine "dead?" What is the difference between what you do and "the witch of Endor" in the Bible, people who take part in seances, the mediums of today that involve themselves with the paranormal, etc. People do claim to talk to the dead, and so do you. What is the difference. The governor general of Quebec claims to talk to her grand-parents regularly (who died some time ago). She is a spiritualist. What is the difference between her beliefs and yours? You are praying to dead people just like a spiritualist does. It is necromancy--condemned in the Bible. No, I wouldn't have believed that either when I was a Catholic. But now that I have been saved, God has opened my eyes to the Scriptures which reveal these things to me.

This is what Catholics believe

Eph. 3:14-15 - that we are one family; in Heaven and on Earth, Christ's Church is Christ's faithful in Heaven and on Earth. Therefore we can ask our family to pray for us to Christ, here or in Heaven. The least in Heaven is greater than the greatest on Earth, the prayer of the rightous is very powerful.

Ephesians 3:14-16 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Paul's prayer is the the Father in heaven that he would grant to the believers in the church at Ephesus to be strengthened with might by his Spirit.

Read the context! Understand what is being said!
It says absolutely nothing about praying to anyone in Heaven. It says "of CHRIST, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named," a reference to the fact that we all are followers of Christ, or Christians. It has nothing to do with praying to anyone but God alone.

I know what the Catholic Church teaches.
I know what the Catholic Church says it teaches. (There is a difference.

There is no difference. The issue is you do not know.

Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God." Looking at Catholic doctrine from the Bible's point of view puts Catholic doctrine in a whole different light and therefore it seems different to you. I am stating what the Catholic Church believes from a Biblical point of view. Yes I do know the heretical views of the Catholic Church.

I know what the Catholic Church taught me.

Either you were at a bad parish with bad teachers that didn't teach Catholic teachings or you missed something.

Your statement is quite laughable actually, (or sad), as I have mentioned more than once before. This is the typical Catholic response. I here it all the time. The truth is that my father was in business that required us to move every 3 to 4 years. Are you going to blame all the parishes?? I missed something? I don't think so. You (as other Catholics) love playing the typical blame game, and judge that which you know nothing thereof.
[QUOTEThe Catholic Church can be fully backed up by their interpretation of the Scriptures. [/QUOTE]
This is where you are wrong, and it has been shown to you time and time again where you are wrong. But a man convinced against his will remains the same opinion still.
Mike and Steaver both have shown you from the Scriptures how the Catholic Church teachings contradict the Bible in so many places. I have done the same thing. You turn a blind eye. You will not believe--like the Pharisees of old. They were stuck in their Tradition which Jesus condemned. You are stuck in yours, which the Bible condemns.

It's funny that I've never seen a Catholic board misrepresent Baptists or other Christians. I'm sure there are a few, but I haven't seen them and I've been to many of them. The Catholic Church basically says that the Baptists disagree with them, they don't bash the Baptist churches or any other church.

Your doctrine is not being misrepresented; it is being exposed for what it is--false. We don't hate you; it is the doctrine of the Catholic church (its heresy) that is hated.

Hateful talk, rumors, and baring false witness are not of Christ.

Kind of makes you wonder who follows Christ better?

If you want to get into theology, I'd be happy to on another board, one where I won't get sensored or booted because someone disagrees with me. Like the www.baptistboard.net which looks pretty straightforward and the board owner doesn't go around ripping links out of posts that he doesn't agree with.

I've got the complete writings of the first Christians up to around 700 AD from www.Logos.com and I've been reading them for over four years now. So I would love to talk theology... on another board. But, this topic is what the Church teaches, not that I agree with it, but I understand their point of view. It is unChristian to say some of the things that have been said about them on this board.

God Bless,
Sirach

Most of us have the same resources that you do, if not more. I have shelves of books on Catholicism, and know where the different resources are on the web as well. That is not the point. You take things wrong. It is not the person, but the doctrine that is heretical. That being said, if the person goes on pushing that doctrine and teaching it, he becomes a heretic. Which way will you go?
DHK

 

[Sirach]

DHK,

The Catechism is full of references to the Bible. Also, www.ScriptureCatholic.com shows their interpretation of Scripture.

If you were so biasly bent on proving them wrong and just try to understand why they believe what they do, then you would see what I have amply pointed out.

Anyone can go to Catholic site and see that I am right about what the Catholic Church teaches.

How do you know that your interpretation is correct? Because you read your bible? What about the thousands of other Baptists that read theirs also, and disagree with you on 'this' or 'that' point?

You can disagree with what the Catholic Church teaches, but you have given a misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches, and why.

I understand the Catholic's point of view of Scripture, whereas you don't have what they teach on Scripture. I'm not saying that their interpretation is correct, what I am saying is that you misunderstand the Catholic Church's teaching, along with others on this thread. I know the Catholic Church teachings better than you and others on this thread. I know them better because I have read the Catechism, not snippets from people who attack the Catholic Church, but the book itself.

In example where I am right and you and others are wrong...
The Catholic Church teaches that the only way we get to Heaven is because that Christ died for our sins. The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot work our way to Heaven.

CCC 1992
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.

CCC 2007
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man.


IF YOU ARE RIGHT, THEN SHOW ME WITH A LINK TO THE CATECHISM. THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I BELEIVE YOU.

The problem is that you don't know and think you know and have failed to look, because if you looked you would be able to give a link or you would learn that I am correct.

Everyone can look for themselves and see who is right. And I ask anyone on this board to do the above with a link to the Catechism at www.USCCB.org to show me I'm wrong, if you can, I'll change my view of what the Catholic Church teaches. Simple enough.

God Bless,
Sirach

 

[D28guy]

Matt Black,

"DHK and Mike, I would take issue with your contention that the disagreements in the Theology Forum are trivial."

Who said they are "trivial"? Not me. I never said they are trivial, only that we are free to our convictions regarding non-foundational issues.

The Catholic church doesnt give their people freedom regarding their convictions, but God does give freedom to His.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Bro James,

"God is not the author of confusion.

Satan is the author of confusion."

Thats the reason why I fled Catholicism.

When I was finally able to "see" the confusing, contradictory and heretical mess that is the theology of the Catholic Church, I fled it "like the plague".

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

"Hateful talk, rumors, and baring false witness are not of Christ."

Nobody is bearing false witness. We are sharing with you the truth regarding the Catholic Church. You are refusing to believe it.

"Kind of makes you wonder who follows Christ better?"

Jesus said that..."You will know them by their fruit."

Catholic Church...

Teaches contrary to Gods truth regarding the truth of justification through faith alone.

Teaches contrary to Gods truth regarding revelation, and invents its own teology...calling it "sacred tradition", which God specifically warns against.

Teaches contrary to Gods truth...and exactly like cults like JW's. Mormons, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc...that their people have no freedom of convictions regarding non-foundational things, and commands them to be in subjection to Romes declarations.

Teaches contrary to Gods truth regarding the "priesthood of all believers", and invents a hiearchial monstrosity of control and error filled with false "priests".

Evangelicalism...

Agrees with God that we are justified through faith alone.

Agrees with God that we are to turn only to the scriptures for our authority regarding theology, doctrine, and morality, .

Agrees with God regarding the freedom that all christians are given by God regarding non-foundational issiues.

Agrees with God regarding the scriptural truth of the "priesthood of all believers".

It should be an easy choice to make.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Sirach]

Mike,

Sorry, but you are mistaken on Catholic teachings...

The Catholic church doesnt give their people freedom regarding their convictions, but God does give freedom to His.

Again I say this is in goal of academic integrity, not a promotion of the Catholic Church.


They do...

On Moral Conscience:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art6.htm#1784


1779
It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:


Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.51


And...


846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337


848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338


Found at: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm


And as for what is in Scripture, there are right and wrong answers...

Acts 8:30-35 - And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth. 33In humility his judgment was taken away. His generation who shall declare, for his life shall be taken from the earth? 34And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.

2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.


Unless we study the first 600 - 700 years of Christian writings explaining the Scriptures, we could have wrong interpretations... Unless we learn from the group established by Christ on the Apostles, we could be the ones being mislead.

Why do you think that the Apostles wrote so many letters to other Churches correcting them on Faith. We see that in Acts 15 the Apostles and elders gather to settle matters of faith. We see that in John 14 they are guided in all truth by the Holy Spirit. (16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, ... 26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.)


You might disagree with their interpretation, and likewise they disagree with yours. Who are we to judge the hearts of men? Pray for them and pray that all come to know Christ's truth.

Show love, and you will be know as someone who reads the life of Christ.

God Bless,
Sirach

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

"I've got the complete writings of the first Christians up to around 700 AD from www.Logos.com and I've been reading them for over four years now."

Have you been doing as God instructs and "testing" every word of that against Gods truth found in the scriptures...and throwing in the garbage can everything that is proven false?

"TEST all things, and hold fast to that which is true"

"And these were more fairminded than those at Thessolanica, in that they searched the SCRIPTURES daily, to see whether these tings be so."

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in rightiousness, that the man of God might be complete, and thoroughly equipped for every good work"

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

"1779
It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:


Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.51


And...


846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337


848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338"

They why do all Catholics...unanimously...always argue against that on these and any other boards?

Catholics unanimously and consistently argue against the truth that we are to turn to the scriptures ourselves, with the Holy Spirit as our teacher, and develop our convictions in that way. They consistently argue that that leads to all of these "contradictory teachings", and all of the (supposedly) 30,000 denominations all disagreeing with each other.

Are all these Catholics ignorant of their own churchs teaching?

No, they are not.

All that you posted is to be understood by the Catholic only in light of the false idea that they make sure to believe everything the inerrant "Teaching Majesterium" of the "inerrant" Hiearchy teaches as being true doctrine.

Do your research and find out what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the "Teaching Majesterium" and the Catholic laities obligation regarding it.

Mike

 

[Sirach]

Mike,

I haven't found anything contradictory. It appears you didn't ask the questions to the right people or didn't look things up when people attacked Catholicism.

They have a different interpretation of Scripture than you do, and yet thought it's different, I have found nothing confusing about the straight forward talk in the Catachism with references to the Scriptures.

Catholicism is only confusing to those who have not truly studied it and listened to rumor mongers who take things out of context.

God Bless,
Sirach