The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

[D28guy]

Sirach,

I have posted that the Catholic Church, because of their cult like attitude toward their "Teaching Majesterium", is exactly like cults like the Jehovahs Wittneses, Mormons, "Christian Science", Jim Jones, etc, in that they expect their members to unquestioningly internalise their teachings, because they are (supposedly)protected by God from error, and so the Catholic must unquestioningly submit to her teachings.

You took issue with that by posting this...

1779
It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:


Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.51


And...


846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:


Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

I then said...

All that you posted is to be understood by the Catholic only in light of the false idea that they make sure to believe everything the inerrant "Teaching Majesterium" of the "inerrant" Hiearchy teaches as being true doctrine.

Do your research and find out what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the "Teaching Majesterium" and the Catholic laities obligation regarding it.

You still seem to not believe me, so here it is straight "from the horses mouth" as they say.

The Catholic Catachism:

The Magisterium of the Church

85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms."

Link... click here


And from the Catholic Encyclopedia...

"As regards Biblical interpretation properly so called the Church is infallible in the sense that, whether by authentic decision of pope or council, or by its current teaching that a given passage of Scripture has a certain meaning, this meaning must be regarded as the true sense of the passage in question. It claims this power of infallible interpretation only in matters of faith and morals, that is where religious or moral truth is in danger, directly, if the text or passage belongs to the moral and religious order; indirectly, if in assigning a meaning to a text or book the veracity of the Bible, its moral value, or the dogma of its inspiration or inerrancy is imperilled."

Link... Click here


God bless,

Mike

 

[Living4Him]

Catholic Church...

Teaches contrary to Gods truth regarding the truth of justification through faith alone.

Really? Please show me in the Bible where it states we are justified by faith alone.

According to James 2:14-24 (KJV)the Bible states something different.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

2:15
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

2:16
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[D28guy]

Living4Him,

"Really? Please show me in the Bible where it states we are justified by faith alone."

Its thundered from the scriptures. And its been posted so many times, I'll just copy this from a previous post of mine in its entirety from this very thread...

"Here are several of the scriptures that support the truth that we are justified through faith alone.

If any Catholics feel like it, I present these scriptures to be mangled, twisted, and butchered...

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"

Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."

Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."

Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

How this can be missed is mind boggling...and so very sad.

But I understand why its happening.

Mike

I'm glad you asked. God absolutly could not be clearer. And that is just the "tip of the inceberg", as they say.

The really sad thing is that there are people who will turn a blind eye...("I see nothing!, I hear nothing!")...to Gods truth in this regard, in order to perpetuate Romes false gospel. And they will actually...with a straight face, I'm not kidding... say something like this:

"Why, the only place the words "faith" and "alone" are used together is in James, where it says we are not justified by faith alone!!"

And they actually buy the Catholic Churchs
butchering of the scriptures in the book of James..."hook...line...and sinker"...in spite of the fact that the book of James does not contradict justification through faith alone in the least. It presents the "flip side" of that coin...the truth that true saving faith will inevitably produce fruit, but that fruit as (((zero))) to do with attaining justification.

According to Almighty God, we are justified through faith in Christ. And thats faith alone.

Thank goodness that most of us have good minds to think with and we can actually read the scriptures in the book of James, and the book of Ephesians, and Galaciens, and Romans, and Hebrews, etc...and see through such nonsense as the Catholic Church promotes.

My heart breaks for those who will not, or can not, do that.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Sirach]

I first ask that you and everyone reading this sincerely ask Christ to bring us closer to him and ask Christ that our dialog may be fruitful in the eyes of God, even if we cannot see the fruits of our labor. May we exhibit the love of Christ for our brothers, and especially to the least of our brothers, as Christ so commands.

Amen.


Again I say, I am not saying I agree with the Catholic Church teachings, I am saying that I understand their point of view and in their point of view it makes sense.

Have you been doing as God instructs and "testing" every word of that against Gods truth found in the scriptures...and throwing in the garbage can everything that is proven false?

How many times have you read the bible? I’ve read it dozens of times. I continue to read it, daily. There are many things that the Scriptures attest to that are not in the Scriptures. We can’t pick a few passages and base our beliefs on. We must take all verses into account, and try to understand that the Apostles spoke Aramaic, the New Testament Scriptures were written in a mix of languages; Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. Then they were translated into Latin by St. Jerome. At the time the New Testament was written, the only writings that were considered Scripture were the Septuagint (the same Scriptures that Christ and the Apostles refer to in the NT). I suggest you look up “Canonization” at www.Britannica.com If you don’t have a premium account, it’s only $50 per year. Now, the translation in modern English. Have you ever studied a foreign language? If you did, you would know how easy it is to mix up meanings. Just like the Eunuch in Acts 8, we cannot know the meaning of Scriptures on our own, just as Scripture attests too (2 Peter 1:20).

We believe Scripture because we first heard it, not because we read it.

1 Corin 15:11
Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed.


We know that Christ’s Church will NEVER be overcome (Matt 16). We know that people will leave the original group and be wrong to do so (Acts 30:29-30). We know that people will distort the meanings of Scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-17).

We cannot know the true meaning or have a measure to test the interpretation of Scripture unless we know what the first Christians taught about them.

2 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

The only way to know the oral statements is to study the first Christian writings.


2 Tim 2:2
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

We see in the Scriptures that Christ and the Apostles speak of preaching and teaching others, no where does scripture imply that everything is in Scripture. In fact, quite the opposite.

Ephesians 2:20
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone

1 Corin 11:2
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

Some traditions come from the Apostles themselves.

"TEST all things, and hold fast to that which is true"

How do we know which is true unless we start with Christ and the Apostles, and the trustworthy people that they taught? We must study the beginning of Christianity. We cannot know by just reading the bible, just as the Eunuch in Acts 8.

And these were more fairminded than those at Thessolanica, in that they searched the SCRIPTURES daily, to see whether these tings be so."

The only Scriptures that existed then was the Old Testament (Septuagint, from 293 BC).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in rightiousness, that the man of God might be complete, and thoroughly equipped for every good work"

2 Timothy 3:14
But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it,
15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,


All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training…. BUT that does not say that Scripture is all we need. There are many verses in the bible that tell us to take it to the Church. Christ Himself does…. Matt 18:17. Christ also tells the Apostles and other disciples to make disciples of nations…. The Early Church Father writings found at www.Logos.com are the disciples created by those that Christ told to do so. At one of our local Baptist churches, my friend’s father is the pastor and loves to give this as a give to people.


Again, my point is that you have a different interpretation and you have no way of knowing if you are correct unless you start in 33 AD. There were over 19,000 pages written before 700 AD about the Christian Faith.

When you love someone, don’t you want to know their family…. Don’t you want to know your own family… These are our Christian ancestors… they are our family in Christ. We should study.


God Bless,
Sirach

 

[DHK]

Sirach,
Why do you continue to post the same verses out of context, as your proof texts? They don't mean what you think, and I have already demonstrated that. Do I have to explain the proper meaning of every one of these verses to you again? Please go back and read why these verses do not mean whay you are saying.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

"We know that Christ’s Church will NEVER be overcome (Matt 16)."

And Christs church has never been overcome. Christs church is all of the born again people. They are in many different organised religious groups, along with lost people in those same groups. There are even *some* of Christs church in the Catholic Church, although probably a small percentage. In all likelyhood a particularly small percentage in the Hiearchy.

"We know that people will leave the original group and be wrong to do so (Acts 30:29-30)."

I agree. The organised religious body known as the Catholic Church "left the original group" almost 2000 years ago.

"We know that people will distort the meanings of Scriptures (2 Peter 3:15-17)."

Yes they will. The Catholic Church are experts at it.

We cannot know the true meaning or have a measure to test the interpretation of Scripture unless we know what the first Christians taught about them.

Nonsense. You know the "true meaning of the scriptures" by studying the scriptures. You have no way of knowing if those "first christians" were in the truth or already falling into heresy, idolatry, and false teaching unless you have an unchanging standard to test them against. We have that unchanging standard...Gods scriptures.

"And these were more fairminded than those at Thessolanica, in that the searched the scriptures daily, to see if these things be so"

(By the way, those were the "the first christians" there in that passage, and those "first christians" tested all things against Gods scriptures)

2 Thess 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

The only way to know the oral statements is to study the first Christian writings.

The only way to determine which of those writings is worth considering...as opposed to pitching in garbage bin...is to do as the Berea "first christians" did and test all things according to the scriptures.

I said...

"TEST all things, and hold fast to that which is true""

And you said...

How do we know which is true unless we start with Christ and the Apostles, and the trustworthy people that they taught? We must study the beginning of Christianity. We cannot know by just reading the bible, just as the Eunuch in Acts 8.

Nothing wrong with studying early christianity. I personally find church history writings to be exceedingly interesting and fascinating. But we do not base doctrine on what those in the 1st or early centuries taught. Even as the new testament was being inscripturated, there were "savage wolves", "false prophets" and "false teachers" creeping into the body of Christ in order to decieve. How much worse 10 years later, or 50 years later?

We test what the early christians taught according to the scriptures and ignore that which is false.

Those are Gods instructions to us. God does not give us these instructions just cause He likes the sound of His own voice. He expects us to heed Him.

"Again, my point is that you have a different interpretation and you have no way of knowing if you are correct unless you start in 33 AD."

Nonsense. We know we are correct if it lines up with Gods truth found in the scriptures.

There were over 19,000 pages written before 700 AD about the Christian Faith.

And all 19,000 of them are to be put to the test against the truth found in the scriptures. That which is proved false is to be ignored.

"When you love someone, don’t you want to know their family"

Nothing wrong with that!

"Don’t you want to know your own family…"

Nothing wrong with that at all.

These are our Christian ancestors

Not all of them. Only the ones born again of Gods Spirit.

they are our family in Christ.

Only the ones who are christians. In other words, only the "wheat" and not the "tares"

"We should study."

Of course. Using Gods scriptures as out "litmus test" to determine light from darkness and good from evil.

God bless,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Sirach:
I understand the Catholic's point of view of Scripture, whereas you don't have what they teach on Scripture.

Apparently you do not, at least not in the light of Scripture.

I'm not saying that their interpretation is correct, what I am saying is that you misunderstand the Catholic Church's teaching, along with others on this thread. I know the Catholic Church teachings better than you and others on this thread. I know them better because I have read the Catechism, not snippets from people who attack the Catholic Church, but the book itself.

You are being presumptuous and judgmental. Since you have neither met me or the others on this board do not pretend to play the role of God. You are not!

In example where I am right and you and others are wrong...
The Catholic Church teaches that the only way we get to Heaven is because that Christ died for our sins. The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot work our way to Heaven.

CCC 1992
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.

Nice words that are contradicted and negated by other doctrines in the Catholic Catechism. You can be a Catholic and anything else in the world that you want to be. That is the reason the Catholic Church can fit so nicely in both Hindu and Muslim nations.

If "justification has been merited for us by the passion (sufferings [death, blood]) of Christ who offered himself on the cross..." then:
#1. there would be no need of baptismal regeneration.
#2. the teaching of born again would not mean to be baptized.
#3. There would be no teaching of purgatory--the need of man to cleanse himself of sin once again.
#4. There would be no need of asking Mary to intercede on your behalf
#5. If this were true then the Catholic Church could revamp their religion and do away with a plethora of their doctrines. But unfortunately it isn't true. It is added onto. And what they add onto this doctrine negates the very essential teaching of it.

CCC 2007
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man.

A statement that is absolutely false. If this was actually true in the Catholic Church, then:
#1. There would never be any need for any of the seven sacraments--all of which are means of grace.
#2. Again, there would never be a need of baptism in reference to salvation. Baptism is a work--nothing less, nothing more. It is a work that man does that he believes merits him salvation. Thus salvation is by works.
#3 There would never be any need of confessing your sins to a Catholic priest.
#4. There would never be any differentiation between mortal and venial sins. All sin (big or little) send a person to Hell. Only Christ can save.
#5. The Catholic Church through and through is a religion of works. If one doesn't keep the works of the Catholic Church they cannot enter Heaven.

IF YOU ARE RIGHT, THEN SHOW ME WITH A LINK TO THE CATECHISM. THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I BELEIVE YOU.

I don't have to show you a link. Others have already done so. If you don't believe them, neither will you believe me. The information that I have provided is common knowledge and is provided from a Biblical basis. I took your links, your quotations, from your authorities. Now you want a link from me? From where? David Cloud perhaps? Maybe Jack Chick would be better after all?

The problem is that you don't know and think you know and have failed to look, because if you looked you would be able to give a link or you would learn that I am correct.

The problem is that you cannot look upon the teachings of the Catholic Church in the light of the Bible, because you do not know the teaching of the Bible in order to do a proper comparison.

Everyone can look for themselves and see who is right. And I ask anyone on this board to do the above with a link to the Catechism at www.USCCB.org to show me I'm wrong, if you can, I'll change my view of what the Catholic Church teaches. Simple enough.
God Bless,
Sirach

Simple enough. You are right. Anyone can follow a link. But not anyone can gain a thorough knowledge of the Bible by following a link.
DHK

 

[Claudia_T]

To restate what Living4Him said:

According to James 2:14-24 (KJV)the Bible states something different.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

2:15
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

2:16
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


How can anybody claim we are justified by faith alone when the Bible says we are not justified by faith alone? "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

What some fail to realize is that GENUINE FAITH produces works.

I am a Seventh Day Adventist Protestant, but I can clearly read what the Bible says.... and it says that faith being alone, is dead.

However, we cannot get to heaven by our own merit. If we are doing good works to gain heaven or to avoid hell then we are still the same self-centered person we were before being "converted" and are not really converted at all.

True genuine faith works from the motivation of love to God and love to our neighbor, that is why Jesus said on these two commandments hang the entire law.

Where faith is, there Jesus is... and where Jesus is, there is His righeousness. We cannot rightly claim to have faith in Jesus and then continue on living like the devil. "Even the devils believe and tremble".


Christ consented to die in the sinner's stead, that man, by a life of obedience, might escape the penalty of the Law of God. His death did not make the Law of God of none effect; it did not slay the law, lessen its claims, or detract from its sacred dignity. The death of Christ proclaimed the justice of his Father's law in punishing the transgressor, in that he consented to suffer the penalty of the law transgressed himself, in order to save fallen man from its curse. The death of God's beloved Son on the cross shows the immutability of the Law of God. His death magnifies the Law and makes it honorable, and gives evidence to man of its changeless character. From his own divine lips are heard the words, "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." The death of Christ justified the claims of the law.

But the doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has made the Law of God of no effect; that by "believing" we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which Christ so unsparingly condemned. To the church of Ephesus he says: 'I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil; and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars; and hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast labored, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.'

Those who are teaching this doctrine to-day have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. "I am saved," they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ becomes to these persons a stumbling-block as he did to the Jews,--to the Jews because they would not receive him as their personal Saviour; to these professed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ and the Law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience. They separate the Father and the Son, the Saviour of the world. Virtually they teach, both by precept and example, that Christ, by his death, saves men in their transgressions.

It is necessary that every intelligent being shall understand the principles of the law of God. Christ through the apostle James declares, "Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." These words were spoken this side of the death of Christ; therefore the Law was binding upon all at that time. The Saviour raised his voice in protest against those who regard the divine commandments with indifference and carelessness. He said, 'Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." And he also declared, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the Law till all be fulfilled.'

Men may talk of freedom, of Gospel liberty. They may assert that they are not in bondage to the Law. But the influence of a Gospel hope will not lead the sinner to look upon the salvation of Christ as a matter of free grace, while he continues to live in transgression of the Law of God. When the light of truth dawns upon his mind, and he fully understands the requirements of God, and realizes the extent of his transgressions, he will reform his ways, become loyal to God through the strength obtained from his Saviour, and lead a new and purer life. 'Whosoever abideth in him,' says John, 'sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.'

----------------

Claudia Thompson
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.christiangraphics.org

 

[Claudia_T]

Just to add to what I said... the Nicolaitanes were a Gnostic sect led by Nicolas that taught that you can just "know" God but that your deeds do not matter, your behavior doesnt matter, and thus Jesus said He HATED the deeds of the Nicolaitanes. This evil doctrine along with others had begun creeping into the early church and the Apostle Paul along with others faithfully and vigorously fought against it.

This was why John kept saying things like

1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

you cannot "know" God and keep on disobeying His commandments.

One problem however, is that the Apostle Paul said on 2 Thessalonians 2:2-11 that Jesus would not come until "there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Already, along with Gnosticism, the Papacy was forming. And though the Catholic Church defends this idea of doing good works, she also decides that the Pope can make up her own commandments in the place of God Himself. The Catholic Church decided she could change the Sabbath commandment itself.


Go here http://www.seventh-day.org/ and click on "Rome's Challenge".

and so much of the so-called "works" coming out of the Catholic Church are merely traditions of man, which Jesus condemned.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

It's such a shame that on the one hand, "Protestants" bow to the Roman Catholic Church by accepting and following their traditions, and at the same time claim all they have to do is "believe"... while the Catholics claim they need to do "good works" while at the same time trying to change the commandments of God Himself... putting themselves in the place of God.

...both are wrong. And doing good works or keeping the commandments in order to gain merit is wrong as well. We need to do good works as Jesus said, to "glorify God"...and to obey He that created you. Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


--------

Claudia Thompson
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

As a 7th Day Adventist, you said...

"But the doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has made the Law of God of no effect;..."

Certainly not by me. Not by anyone whos posts I have read on this thread. Not any evangelicals, pentecostals, or charismatics I know of.

The Law still has a very important role. Primarity, to serve to condemn us and drive us to Christ for salvation...

Gal 3: 19-25:

"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

God could not possibly be any clearer.

Of course, the law still serves as a fine moral guide...that goes without saying. You will surely agree with that, so I wont go into it.

The main point is that we are only "under" the condemnation of the Law until it serves its purpose and has driven us to Christ for salvation. After that, we are no longer under the Law.

In Romans, it speaks of our no longer being under the Law, of our being released from the Law, and of our having been delivered from the Law.

Praise God! \o/

"...that by "believing" we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word."

It depends on what you mean by "necessity". If you mean that because of our justification through faith alone, we will inevitably have very real fruit in our lives...that being the evidence that we are truly in Christ...I agree.

If you mean that as christians we are still obligated to being "commandment keepers" to either be justified, or to stay justified, you are greatly in error.

"Christ through the apostle James declares, "Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

And if anyone has not yet come to Christ, they better take heed to that admonition...and many others like it...and rectify that problem by embracing Christ through faith alone.

If a born again child of God is living under the Law in that manner, God very much wants to set them free to live in the glorious liberty of grace under the new covenant...which will result in rightiousness and consistent living being the overflow of grace, rather than striving to be an acceptable "lawkeeper".

Gal 5, vs 1:

"Stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has set us free, and do not be entangled again in the yoke of bondage.".

I have been on both sides of this issue, and I can personally vouch for which one produces biblical fruit, and which one produces endless treadmill of unfruitful, and very "phony" fruit.

I praise God for opening my eyes to the truth in this regard!

God bless,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by DHK:
Sirach,
Why do you continue to post the same verses out of context, as your proof texts? They don't mean what you think, and I have already demonstrated that. Do I have to explain the proper meaning of every one of these verses to you again? Please go back and read why these verses do not mean whay you are saying.
DHK

And why on earth should we trust that you knwo their meaning better than the rest of us?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[DHK]

I gave the explanation of them on page 20. If he has a better explanation, then let him refute, or explain why my explanation of the verse is not the correct one. Just to post a verse without any explanation is fruitless. Anyone can do that.
DHK

 

[Living4Him]

D28guy,

I have shown before, that the Scriptures are to be taken in their entirity.

Salvation begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.

Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.

Grace: Is a supernatural gift from GOD.
Sanctifying grace dwells in the soul and gives it supernatural life. It makes us pleasing to GOD. Actual grace are graces that move us or prod us into doing the things which we should be doing.

"For without Me, you can do nothing." John 15:5

"With men, this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible." Matt 19:26

"I can do all things in Him who strengthens me." Phil 4:13

"...No one can receive anything unless it is given to him from Heaven." John 3:27

"And He said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for strength is made perfect in weakness'." 2Cor 12:9

"I give thanks to my GOD always concerning you for the grace of GOD which was given you in Christ Jesus..." 1Cor 1:4

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not from yourselves, for it is the gift of GOD..." Eph 2:8

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's bestowal." Eph 4:7
"And of His fullness we have all received grace for grace." John 1:16
Grace is a free gift from GOD, and a sufficient amount is given to each and every one of us for our salvation. Without it, we can do nothing at all. We cannot 'save' ourselves.

Faith: Is the assent given to GOD's truth. 1Thes 2:13

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since 'without faith it is impossible to please [GOD]' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'but he who endures to the end.'" Matt 10:22,24:13, Heb 11:6.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Heb 11:1

"Without faith it is impossible to please GOD." Heb 11:6

"Faith then depends on hearing, and hearing on the Word of Christ." Rom 10:17
"Yet when the Son of Man comes, will He find, do you think, faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8
Faith is of great importance to GOD.

"Through Him we have received the grace of Apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith." Rom 1:5
Faith is being obedient to GOD.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any avail, nor uncircumcision, but faith which works through charity." Gal 5:6.
Faith, therefore, works through love.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity (love), I am nothing." 1Cor 13:2.

Faith, however, is interwoven with love. Faith without love is useless.

"Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in faith." 2Cor 13:5

Works: We work out what GOD works in our hearts. Works are the fruit of faith. Whenever St. Paul said works are not needed, he was referring to the old Mosaic Law or works of darkness. He did not mean the good works rendered by the Law of Grace of the New Covenant.

In Matt 25:31-46 are many examples of doing good works, proclaimed by Jesus Christ. There is the separation of the sheep from the goats which relate to, the feeding of the hungry, clothing of the naked, visiting the sick and those imprisoned, and more. Notice that both the sheep and the goats believed, but only the sheep did good works. In verse 46, Jesus cautioned as to what will be the reward of those who do not do these things, and of those who do, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."

"Work from the heart as for the Lord, and not for men." Col 3:23

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12. See also 1Cor 9:24-27.

And if you invoke as Father him who without respect of persons judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves with fear in the time of your sojourning." 1Pet 1:17

"There are just men and wise men, and their works are in the hand of GOD." Eccl 9:1

"...who will render to every man according to his works." Rom 2:6

"But their end will be according to their works." 2Cor 11:15

"For GOD shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl 12:14

"Tribulation and anguish shall be visited upon the soul of every man who works evil; of Jew first and then of Greek. But glory and honor and peace shall be awarded to everyone who does good to Jew first and then of Greek." Rom 2:9-10

"...we should love one another; not like Cain, who was of the evil one, and killed his brother. And wherefore did he kill him? Because his own works were wicked, but his brother's just." 1Jn 3:11-12

"But if anyone builds upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hat, straw, the work of each will be made manifest, for the Day of the Lord will declare it, since the day is to be revealed in fire. The fire will assay the quality of everyone's work: if his work abides which he has built thereon, he will receive his reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 1Cor 3:13-15

These four preceding verses lay it on the line that every one's works will surely be tested, and reward or punishment will follow.

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 7:21

"Now we know that GOD does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of GOD, AND DOES HIS WILL , him He hears." John 9:31

"But why do you call Me, 'Lord, 'Lord', and do not practice the things that I say?" Luke 6:46

"But he who does the truth comes to the light that his deeds may be made manifest, for they have been performed in GOD." John 3:21

"Esteem them with a more abundant love on account of their work." 1Thes 5:13

"If anyone, therefore, has cleansed himself from these, he will be a vessel for honorable use, sanctified and useful to the Lord, ready for every good work." 2Tim 2:21

"Let them do good and be rich in good works, giving readily, sharing with others." 1Tim 6:18

"This saying is true, and concerning these things I desire you to insist, that they who believe in GOD may be careful to excel in good works." Tit 3:8

"And let out children also learn to excel in good works, in order to meet cases of necessity, so that they may not be unfruitful." Tit 3:14

"...looking for the blessed hope and glorious coming of our great GOD and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity and cleanse for Himself an acceptable people, pursuing good works." Tit 2:13-14

"Yes, working together with Him we entreat you not to receive the grace of GOD in vain... On the contrary, let us conduct ourselves in all circumstances as GOD's ministers, in much patience; in tribulations, in hardships, in distress; in stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults; in labors..."
2Cor 6:1,5

"May you walk worthily of GOD and please Him in all things, bearing fruit in every good work and growing in the knowledge of GOD." Col 1:10

"Bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, whereas he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let everyone test his own work, so he will have glory in himself only, and not in comparison with another. For each one will bear his own burden." Gal 6:2-5

"And they who have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment." John 5:29

"If you know that he is just, know that everyone also who does what is just has been born of Him." 1John 2:29

"Therefore, he who knows how to do good, and does not do it, commits a sin." Jam 4:17
This is called the sin of omission. Matt 25:37-40 has more examples of sins of omission.

"And concerning these (evil works) I warn you, that they who do (evil works) such things will not attain the kingdom of GOD." Gal 5:21 (read from verse 16 for context).

"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore where you have fallen, and repent and do the former works; or else I will come to you, and will move your lamp-stand out of its place, unless you repent." Rev 2:4-5

"I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead. Be watchful and strengthen the things that remain, but which were ready to die. For I do not find your works complete before my GOD." Rev 3:1-2

"Alexander, the coppersmith, has done me much harm; the Lord will render him according to his deeds." 2Tim 4:14

"My dear children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue, but in deed and in truth."
1Jn 3:18

"I know your works, your faith, your love, your ministry, your patience, and your last works, which are more numerous than the former." Rev 2:19

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying, 'Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, FOR THEIR WORKS FOLLOW THEM'." Rev 14:13
The works which you do in this life will follow you forever.

"I know your works and your labor and your patience, and that you cannot bear evil men;" Rev 2:2

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened, which is the Book of Life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the scrolls, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." Rev 20:12

"And her children I will strike with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches desires and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works." Rev 2:23

"Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS." Rev 22:12

"And the world with its lust is passing away, but he who does the will of GOD abides forever." 1John 2:17

"And he who overcomes, and who keeps My works unto the end, I will give authority over the nations." Rev 2:26

"I know your works, Behold, I have caused a door to be opened before you which no one can shut, for you have scanty strength, and you have kept My word and have not disowned My name." Rev 3:8

Grace AND Faith:

"They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom GOD has set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith, to manifest His justice,..." Rom 3:24-25

"By whom we also have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of GOD." Rom 5:2

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as GOD has dealt to every man the measure of faith." Rom 12:3

Now Grace 'anded' together with faith enters into the equation.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not from yourselves, for it is the gift of GOD." Eph 2:8

"So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy to be used according to the proportion of faith." Rom 12:5-6

"Now as you abound in everything in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that you abound in this grace also." 2Cor 8:7

"And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant with faith and love which is in Jesus Christ." 1Tim 1:14

"To Titus, my own son after the common faith: grace, mercy and peace, from GOD the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior." Tit 1:4

So now it is grace AND faith, not grace OR faith.

Grace AND Works:

"But by the grace of GOD I am what I am, and His grace in me has not been fruitless, in fact I have labored (worked) more than any of them, yet not I, but the grace of GOD with me." 1Cor 15:10
GOD expects fruit to be produced in the form of good works, by His freely given grace.

"And they sailed to Antioch, from where they had been recommended to the grace of GOD for the work which they fulfilled." Acts 14:26

"Yes, working together with Him we entreat you not to receive the grace of GOD in vain." 2Cor 6:1
Here we see that there is danger of receiving grace from GOD and we not responding with works.

"And GOD is able to make all grace abound toward you; that always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." 2Cor 9:8

So now it is grace AND works, not grace OR works.

Faith AND Works:

"What does it profit, my brethren, even though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?" James 2:14

"Even so faith if it has not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17

"Yes, a man may say, you have faith and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." James 2:18

"But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20

"Do you see that faith worked along with his works, and by the works the faith was made perfect?" James 2:22

"You see then how that by works, a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24

"So as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26
What more could St. James have said to make it any clearer that faith and works go hand in hand?

Grace NOR (not 'or') the Law: We are not under the Law* as the Jews were, but we are under the Grace of GOD in the New Covenant.

*The Law referred to in the New Testament is the Law of Moses unless qualified further as the Law of Christ.

"For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." John 1:17

"Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matt 5:17

"For sin shall not have dominion over you; for YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE." Romans 6:14

"What then? Are we to sin because we are NOT under the Law but under grace? By no means!" Romans 6:15

"Moreover the Law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Rom 5:20

"I do not frustrate the grace of GOD, for if righteousness come by the Law, then Christ died in vain." Gal 2:21

"You who would be justified in the Law are estranged from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Gal 5:4

These verses have made it quite clear that we do not achieve salvation under the Law of Moses, but under the new 'Law of Grace'.

Faith NOR (not 'or') the Law: We are justified by faith and not by the Law.

"For the promise that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the Law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect." Rom 4:13-14

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what Law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law." Rom 3:27-28

"But that no man is justified by the Law in the sight of GOD, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith. And the Law is not of faith: but the man that does them shall live in them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree:' that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Gal 3:11-14

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles (that is us folks, anyone who is not a Jew), which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, have not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone." Rom 9:30-32.

"But we know that man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Hence we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and NOT by the works of the Law." Gal 2:16

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD. Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9
This verse refers to human works only, without the benefit of grace or faith.

"For those who rely on the works of the Law are under a curse. For it is written 'Cursed is everyone who does not hold to all things that are written in the book of the Law, to perform them'. But that by the Law no man is justified before GOD is evident, because 'he who is just lives by faith'. But THE LAW DOES NOT REST ON FAITH; but, 'he who does these things, shall live by them'. Christ redeemed us from the CURSE OF THE LAW..." Gal 3:10-13

"For we reckon that a man is justified by faith (alone*) independently of the works of the Law." Rom 3:28.
However, these verses refer only to works under the Law, and not to works under grace.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not from yourselves, for it is the gift of GOD; not as the outcome of works, lest anyone may boast. For His workmanship we are, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which GOD has made ready beforehand that we may walk in them." Eph 2:8-10

"He has redeemed us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and the grace which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world existed." 2Tim 1:9

"But when the goodness and kindness of GOD our Savior appeared, then not by reason of good works that we did ourselves, but according to His mercy, he saved us through the bath of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit." Tit 3:4-5

What these three verses say is that mere human works will not achieve salvation by itself without the gifts of faith and the grace of GOD.

What Our Lord demands is 'faith which works through charity'. (Gal 5:6).
Read Mt 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity.
The first and greatest commandment, as given by Our Lord Himself, is to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul, and strength; and the second great commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself, (Mk 12:30-31).
"For God has done what the Law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the Law might be FULFILLED IN US, who walk NOT according to the FLESH but according to the SPIRIT." Rom 8:3-4.
"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Gal 5:13-14
Thus, although faith is the beginning, it is not the complete fulfillment of the will of God. Nowhere in the Bible is it written that faith alone justifies. When St. Paul wrote, 'For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the Law' (Gal 2:16), he was referring to works peculiar to the old Jewish Law, and he cited circumcision as an example.

The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace, that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (Jn 15:4-6)

St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation:
'But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel', (1Tim 5:8).
Our Lord tells us that if the Master (GOD) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He 'shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers', (Lk 12:46).

Our Lord Himself said:
'For the Son of man...will render to every man according to his works', (Mt 16:27).
'And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward', (Mt 10:42).
Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that 'every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor', (1Cor 3:8).
'For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints', (Heb 6:10).
'I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming', (2Tim 4:7-8).
Still, Catholics know that, strictly speaking, God never owes us anything. Even after obeying all God's commandments, we must still say:
'We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which we ought to do', (Lk 17:10).
As St. Augustine stated: 'All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but His gifts'. Had St. Paul meant that faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, he would not have written:
'...and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing', (1Cor 13:2).
If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle James would not have written:
'Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only'?...For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead', (James 2:24-26).
Or: 'What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him'? (James 2:14).
If faith ruled out the necessity of good works for salvation, the Apostle Peter would not have written: 'Wherefore, brethren, labor the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ', (2Pet 1:10-11).

1. Are we saved by Grace Alone?
Yes, as this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Grace is a gift from GOD. It is given freely to us, but in return He expects us to do our part by our performance of Good Works.

2. Are we saved by Faith Only?
No. It is impossible, for salvation by Faith alone, for we can do nothing of ourselves without the Grace of GOD. The only verse in the entire Bible where the words Faith and Only appear together is in James 2:24 where he said, "You see that by works a man is justified, and NOT by faith only."

3. Are we saved by Works Alone?
No. Mere human works are useless without the grace of GOD and faith working through love.

4. Can we say we are "Saved" by just accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior?
No. This teaching excludes doing Good Works and essentially says that as long as we accept Jesus Christ, we can do anything we want to do. If this teaching were true, then what is the purpose of the Ten Commandments? Why did Jesus Christ say, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven; BUT HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN SHALL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN." Matt 7:21.
Now how can anyone DO the will of the Father without doing Good Works?

We work out what GOD works in our hearts.
Faith plus Works equals Faith working through Love. Galatians 5:6


As you can see, it is all connected. God's Grace + Faith = Faith working through love = our eternal reward (salvation)

 

[Claudia_T]

And as far as the Roman Catholic idea of the Apostolic Succession

and them being God's "real" Church goes

John 8:31-36
31: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye

continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in

bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever

committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son

abideth ever.
36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Among the hearers of Jesus many were drawn to Him in faith, and to

them He said, "if ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples

indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

free."


These words offended the Pharisees. The nation's long subjection to a

foreign yoke, they disregarded, and angrily exclaimed, "We be

Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest

Thou, Ye shall be made free?" Jesus looked upon these men, the

slaves of malice, whose thoughts were bent upon revenge, and sadly

answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is

the servant of sin." They were in the worst kind of bondage,--ruled by

the spirit of evil.


Every soul that refuses to give himself to God is under the control of

another power. He is not his own. He may talk of freedom, but he is in

the most abject slavery. He is not allowed to see the beauty of truth,

for his mind is under the control of Satan. While he flatters himself that

he is following the dictates of his own judgment, he obeys the will of

the prince of darkness. Christ came to break the shackles of

sin-slavery from the soul. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye

shall be free indeed." "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" sets

us "free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2.


The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that

of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and

Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and

destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to

one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The divine law, to

which we are brought into subjection, is "the law of liberty." James

2:12.


The Pharisees had declared themselves the children of Abraham.

Jesus told them that this claim could be established only by doing the

works of Abraham. The true children of Abraham would live, as he did,

a life of obedience to God. They would not try to kill One who was

speaking the truth that was given Him from God. In plotting against

Christ, the rabbis were not doing the works of Abraham. A mere lineal

descent from Abraham was of no value. Without a spiritual connection

with him, which would be manifested in possessing the same spirit,

and doing the same works, they were not his children.


This principle bears with equal weight upon a question that has long

agitated the Christian world,--the question of apostolic succession.

Descent from Abraham was proved, not by name and lineage, but by

likeness of character. So the apostolic succession rests not upon the

transmission of ecclesiastical authority, but upon spiritual relationship.

A life actuated by the apostles' spirit, the belief and teaching of the

truth they taught, this is the true evidence of apostolic succession.

This is what constitutes men the successors of the first teachers of

the gospel.


Jesus denied that the Jews were children of Abraham. He said, "Ye do

the deeds of your father." In mockery they answered, "We be not born

of fornication; we have one Father, even God." These words, in allusion

to the circumstances of His birth, were intended as a thrust against

Christ in the presence of those who were beginning to believe on Him.

Jesus gave no heed to the base insinuation, but said, "If God were

your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from

God."


Their works testified of their relationship to him who was a liar and a

murderer. "Ye are of your father the devil," said Jesus, "and the lusts

of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the

beginning, and stood not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

. . . Because I say the truth, ye believe Me not." John 8:44, 45.The

fact that Jesus spoke the truth, and that with certainty, was why He

was not received by the Jewish leaders. It was the truth that offended

these self-righteous men. The truth exposed the fallacy of error; it

condemned their teaching and practice, and it was unwelcome. They

would rather close their eyes to the truth than humble themselves to

confess that they had been in error. They did not love the truth. They

did not desire it, even though it was truth.

Jesus said that the fact that the Jews had desired in their hearts to

MURDER Jesus was proof they were not children of God. I can hardly

think Jesus would feel any different about the Inquisition and the

Roman Catholic Church.

Also, please read this article about who are the "Elect" or the

"Remnant"
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/theelect.htm


----------

Claudia Thompson
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com

 

[Living4Him]

I can hardly think Jesus would feel any different about the Inquisition and the
Roman Catholic Church.

The Inquisition is an unfortunate event in History, but it happened nonetheless. Perhaps they felt they were doing the Will of God.

Just like the Israelites thought they were doing the Will of God by slaughtering every person and animal of their enemies. This included the slaughter of innocent children.

Christ taught us, "It is written to hate your enemies, but I tell you to love your enemies and pray for them that despitefully use you." Christ clarified for us what God wants.

Let's not just use the Inquisition...but every religion has persecuted those who didn't conform because they thought they were doing the work of God.

 

[Sirach]

Originally posted by DHK:
Sirach,
Why do you continue to post the same verses out of context, as your proof texts? They don't mean what you think, and I have already demonstrated that. Do I have to explain the proper meaning of every one of these verses to you again? Please go back and read why these verses do not mean whay you are saying.
DHK

How do you know the proper meaning? Could you be wrong on the context?

Are you infallable? If you think you can't be wrong on context, then you do believe you are infallable. See, the Catholic Church believes it's infallable on context because of the promise Christ made that the Church would be guided in all truth (John 14).

Now, you possibly cannot believe that you are infallable because of John 14, because there is a simple fact that truth cannot contradict truth and I know many baptists with varying beliefs of context of Scripture.


Why do you keep missing the whole point of my dialog? Are you that blind to me posting that I am simply showing you what the Catholic Church teaches and why. Are you so pent up full of hate of the Catholic Church that you can't see past the hate?
Again I stress...
YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE THAN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES.

You have no right to say that you are correct and others are wrong unless you believe yourself to be infallable.

The right that you do have is to disagree.

If you are so high and mighty to be infallable in and of your own regard, then you have much to learn about Christ and you should bury your head in the bible for a few more years.


God Bless.
Sirach

 

[steaver]

No one has any authority from God to " interpret " the Scriptures. We are commanded to " rightly divide " the Scriptures. The Truth can only be seen through the Scriptures themselves, that is, Scripture interprets Scripture . This is not a hard concept to learn. Here is an example;

" Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone ." (James 2:17)

Rather than jump to a conclusion that one must have works to be saved , let's see how Scripture interprets this passage.

Romans 4:1-5 concludes "But to him that worketh not , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness ".

Seems to be a contradiction on the surface, but we know God's Word would never do that because God's nature is to never lie or mislead or confuse. So who is doing the confusing here?

Over and over the Scriptures declare that salvation is a gift and it is freely given. I could post them all but you know them and it would take up quite a bit of space.

This is small matter of one " mixing " the Word of Truth as opposed to " rightly dividing " the Word of Truth.

What " works " is Paul speaking of? I'm not going to post out the entire passage, but " study " it for yourself. Answer- the works of the law-the commandments. The law only condemns it cannot save for no one can keep it all, in fact we each have broken every commandment. " by the deeds (or works) of the law shall no man be justified " (Ro 3&4).

What " works " is James speaking of? Is James speaking about the law? Answer-No. James is speaking about " works of faith ". True faith, not just saying you have faith (vs 2:14), is seen in a person by their works. James gives the example of Abraham who showed his faith by his works. Abraham was not justified by his works. Abraham's faith was justified by his works.

James' conclusion (you must read his entire analogy about faith and Abraham's works) is " Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only " (2:24).

James never states that these works of faith plays any part in a man's redemption. James states that a man's "faith" is only as true as his works proves that he truly has faith.

James teaches about works of faith.

Paul teaches about works of the law.

The works in a Christian's life bear no redemption value. True Christians will do the works of Christ for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph 2:10)

James is teaching that a True Christian will do the works, otherwise their " said faith" is dead, being alone. A dead faith is an unsaving faith. These folks only say they have faith and prove by their bad works or lack of Christ's works in their life that they have never been "born again".

Rightly dividing the word teaches us that we are saved through faith alone and once we are regenerated we are known by our works through Christ for Christ is in us, working through us.

So understand that the works James speaks of add no merit to our salvation , but that they do prove to others, and should to ourselves as well, that we are truly in Christ and have saving faith rather than a non-saving " said " faith.

" Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth ". (2 Tim 2:15)

Scripture interprets Scripture! When we dismiss others under the mind set of "well that is just your interpretation" we stand in direct violation of God's Word which tells us that " precept must be upon precept " (Isaiah 28:10) and His word is to be " rightly divided " (2 Tim 2:15)not individually interpreted.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

1. Are we saved by Grace Alone?
Yes, as this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Grace is a gift from GOD. It is given freely to us, but in return He expects us to do our part by our performance of Good Works.

After quite a long lesson about salvation, you have concluded that we are saved by "Grace Alone".

Are you understanding the terms "alone" and freely"?

You say it is given to us freely, but , God expects some good works or else it is taken back??

That is not freely, right? And it isn't "Grace Alone", right? You do go on to say that one must have works and faith as well, so that is not saved by Grace Alone, right?

See this is what we want you guys to see but it seems you cannot understand that what you teach opposes your own dialogue.

Either something is free or it carries a work. Either something stands "alone" or it carries some other merits. You can't go on record stating that these things are free and such and then in the next breath totally destroy the definitions!

Is salvation free or do I merit it? That is a simple question. IT CAN"T BE BOTH!! If I need to PERSONALLY PERFORM ANY MERITS to get salvation then IT IS NOT FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And that goes for Grace. You state it is freely given and then in the same sentance state that the "free" part is conditional upon works! Can't you guys see your folly?? It is like you are speaking in riddles.

And before anyone goes there, ACCEPTING a gift is NOT a MERIT!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

As you can see, it is all connected. God's Grace + Faith = Faith working through love = our eternal reward (salvation)

Tell me L4H, this eternal reward (salvation), does it have anything to do with being "born again"? What part does being "born again" play in the Catholic's life? Can you explain it's purpose for me (from a Catholic perspective)? It must be pretty big since Jesus said it was a MUST!

God Bless!

 

[Priscilla Ann]

When I was considering my exit from the Catholic church, this is the verse that made everything crystal clear:

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." - Romans 11:6

It does get any clearer than that!