The Holy Roman Catholic Church...

[Matt Black]

I'm saying that since Ignatius was around in 110AD and not 2005 AD and was discipled by John, I'm much more sure that he's not the antichrist, that his opinion carries a lot of weight and that it is to be trusted, than I am of that of any poster here - including myself

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm saying that since Ignatius was around in 110AD and not 2005 AD and was discipled by John, I'm much more sure that he's not the antichrist, that his opinion carries a lot of weight and that it is to be trusted, than I am of that of any poster here - including myself

Yours in Christ

Matt

Hi Matt,

Trust no man...

Study to show yourself/myself appoved.

You and I have the Spirit of God and His complete word to establish our faith. As soon as we start looking outside the Scriptures for our faith we run the risk of being deceived. Let no MAN deceive you the good book says. Even back then when Ignatius was alive there were false teachings even in those who followed Jesus as there is today.

Much of what we see going on in the church today is a result of man.

We must always test for ourselves the truths God has for us that are found in His word.

 

[Matt Black]

Except that you appear to practise a form of Ebionism...and Ignatius didn't!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Except that you appear to practise a form of Ebionism...and Ignatius didn't!

Yours in Christ

Matt

Hi Matt,

I'm not sure what you mean by Ebionism.

 

[Matt Black]

Try googling for it. If that's not what you believe, then I apologise, but you at least seem to be exhibiting some kind of heterodoxy in your posts ( to put it mildly)

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Except that you appear to practise a form of Ebionism...and Ignatius didn't!

Yours in Christ

Matt

Exactly.

Also, jcf, Ignatius preached and wrote against the real heretics (Gnostics, Docetists) so it won't do to lump him into the "Judas" category especially when he was martyred for his faith. The beliefs you are espousing are more akin to those of the Ebionites which was another early heresy which the Church spoke out against.

 

[Bro. James]

Being martyred for one's faith--does not necessarily establish the truthfulness thereof.

RE: Joseph Smith Jr. died for his faith(apparently); does that give credibility to the LDS?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

No, because they were and are heretics; Ignatius was not. Apples and oranges, mate

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
Being martyred for one's faith--does not necessarily establish the truthfulness thereof.

True, but in the overall context we have an immediate disciple of John and friend of Polycarp (another disciple of John and martyr) who has been universally regarded as orthodox (from the beginning), who wrote against the early heresies, and who was martyred for his faith. Joseph Smith clearly was not orthodox. Neither were the Gnostics, Marcionites, Docetists, or Ebionites. Given all this I would put much more stock into what early Fathers what Polycarp and Ignatius had to say than how some 21st century individual who tries to anachronistically read his novel interpretations back into scripture.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Try googling for it. If that's not what you believe, then I apologise, but you at least seem to be exhibiting some kind of heterodoxy in your posts ( to put it mildly)

Yours in Christ

Matt

Hi Matt,

I looked up Ebionism and that is not what I believe. Jesus did possess a divine nature in the same way we can possess a divine nature.

2Pe 1:4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

A divine nature does not mean we have the same power that Jesus and the Apostles had but that we have the loving and caring character or nature of YAHWEH. This is what Jesus reflected to us in that He was obedient to His Father's will in expressing His character.

Check out my post on prexsistance.

 

[Matt Black]

But you don't believe in the Christian version of God as being Three Persons on One Divine Nature, do you?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
But you don't believe in the Christian version of God as being Three Persons on One Divine Nature, do you?

Yours in Christ

Matt

Hi Matt,

I don't believe in the co-eternal, co-equal Jesus.

I believe as the Scriptures say. YAHWEH was in Jesus working through Jesus to reconcile the world. Jesus had to be obedient to the Father's will in this.

I believe YAHWEH forsook Jesus while He was on the cross leaving Jesus alone.

I believe Jesus truly died for the sins of the world, truly 100% dead not somewhere else.

I believe Jesus was truly tempted and remained pure and holy. Could He have sinned, of course He could have but He didn't.

I believe there is one true God and Jesus whom He sent.

I believe the Holy Spirit today is Jesus the life giving Spirit, the Comforter, Helper not a third person separate from Jesus but rather it's Jesus Himself. He comes to us just as His Father came to those prior to Jesus' glorification.

The Father sends the Spirit of His Son to us when we turn to Him.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Interesting. Is this a Oneness Pentecostal theology, or more Quaker?

The part that confuses me is God leaving Jesus while on the cross. That's a Gnostic Christology, if memory serves. Certainly I don't agree, but I'm intertested to know the background of this theological view.

 

[Matt Black]

It's more a form of Arianism, I guess, with a bit of gnosticism thrown in; bit of Adoptionism perhaps there too. Certainly not the Christian dogma of God the Son

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[tragic_pizza]

That's where I was trying to go, Arianism. Still, I'd like to hear about it from jcf.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by jcf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
But you don't believe in the Christian version of God as being Three Persons on One Divine Nature, do you?

Yours in Christ

Matt

Hi Matt,

I don't believe in the co-eternal, co-equal Jesus.</font>[/QUOTE]Then you don't believe as the Bible teaches:
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." (Phil 2:1-8)

Christ who already was in the "form of God" and "equal to God" came to earth in the "form of a bondservant (man)".

I believe Jesus truly died for the sins of the world, truly 100% dead not somewhere else.

So you believe He's truly dead now??

I believe the Holy Spirit today is Jesus the life giving Spirit, the Comforter, Helper not a third person separate from Jesus but rather it's Jesus Himself. He comes to us just as His Father came to those prior to Jesus' glorification.

Well Jesus must have been schizophrenic then (according to your interpretation) because Christ called the Holy Spirit "another Helper" (John 14:16), and said He (Christ) would send Him (the Holy Spirit) from the Father (from Whom the Spirit proceeds (John 15:26) so THREE Persons are in view here. He (the Holy Spirit) will glorify Christ (another Person) (John 16:14).

 

[tragic_pizza]

In my understanding of Christology, had Jesus been at any point a mere human, His death wouldn't have been substitutionary in any case. So... God leaving Jesus when He was on the cross is disturbing. Also, to echo DT, there's an absence of a resurrection statement that might just be an oversight due to the matter at hand...

 

[jcf]

First of all trying to form doctrines via only the KJV bible is not that easy due to the trinitarian mind-set of the interpreters. You will find verses such as 1 John 5:7 that will cause confusion when trying to understand the Godhead.

Phl 2:6-7 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Remember, Jesus is the second Adam. The first Adam made himself as God whereas Jesus did not but instead He took on the form of a servant.

Jesus did fully and completly die on the cross but, as His Father promised, He did not leave Jesus in the grave to see corruption but raised Him and glorified Him at His right hand.

If you read the words of Jesus carefully you will find that the now Holy Spirit is Jesus, He is the comforter, Helper.

Jhn 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him (Jesus), for He (Jesus) dwells with you and will be in you. "I (Jesus) will not leave you orphans; I (Jesus) will come to you.

Jesus was sent by the Father to teach us and to be our example. Jesus was helping the disciples in this but was now leaving them but He said there would be another helper He would not leave them as orphans, the glorified Christ is that helper.

This comforter, Holy Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified. The KJV says, not yet given but the word (given) is not in the original langauge.

Jhn 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The Son at His glorification became the promised Holy Spirit.

Act 2:33 Now he (Jesus) sits on the throne of highest honor in heaven, at God's (YAHWEH's) right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.

So who is this Holy Spirit that is being poured out?

2Cr 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious?
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

The Father did leave Jesus on the cross and to Jesus this was more horrible then the beatings. A trinitarian cannot grasp this.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus' soul and body was in the grave or hell, His spirit/life/breath went to YAHWEH who gives it. This spirit/life/breath is the same life that was given to Adam at creation when Adam became a living soul and is the same life that we all have.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (body).

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (body).

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Jesus who was in the "form of God" (prior to His incarnation--ie prior to his "taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men") "did not consider it robbery to be equal with God" since by nature He was already God ("being in the form of God"). (But of course you have to ignore the chronological sequence in these verses to even try to make them say what you want).

Contrast this with the "first Adam" who never was in the "form of God" or "equal with God" prior to being in the likeness of men, for Adam was in the human form and likeness as soon as he came into being. Also Adam indeed tried to be like God apart from God, unlike Christ who was already in the form of God. Therefore there is no exact equivalence between Adam (only man) and Christ (who was in the form of God and equal to God before He became man) although there is an analogy between the two.

Nice try, though.

Also if you read John 14-16 carefully you'll notice there are three Persons in view based on the grammar and context.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by jcf:
First of all trying to form doctrines via only the KJV bible is not that easy due to the trinitarian mind-set of the interpreters. You will find verses such as 1 John 5:7 that will cause confusion when trying to understand the Godhead.

Since I rarely, if ever, use the KJV, this is not an issue.

Phl 2:6-7 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Remember, Jesus is the second Adam. The first Adam made himself as God whereas Jesus did not but instead He took on the form of a servant.

Jesus did fully and completly die on the cross but, as His Father promised, He did not leave Jesus in the grave to see corruption but raised Him and glorified Him at His right hand.

OK, but doesn't your interpretation lean heavily on the second haf of that verse while virtually ignoring the first? Even taking that verse without its contextual setting, it appears to indicate that Jesus began in the form of God, that is, not the Father but also not a created being as we are.

If you read the words of Jesus carefully you will find that the now Holy Spirit is Jesus, He is the comforter, Helper.

Jhn 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him (Jesus), for He (Jesus) dwells with you and will be in you. "I (Jesus) will not leave you orphans; I (Jesus) will come to you.

Jesus was sent by the Father to teach us and to be our example. Jesus was helping the disciples in this but was now leaving them but He said there would be another helper He would not leave them as orphans, the glorified Christ is that helper.

This comforter, Holy Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified. The KJV says, not yet given but the word (given) is not in the original langauge.

This part about "not leaving you orphans" has always, in my understanding, been viewed as a promise of Christ's ultimate return. Remember that the Holy Spirit, in Scripture, is given as a kind of earnest against Christ's return; thus Jesus being Jesus'promissory note is not neccesarily impossible, but kind of pointless.

Jhn 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The Son at His glorification became the promised Holy Spirit.

Hmmmm... see my response above. This just doesn't "fit" the rest of Scripture.

Act 2:33 Now he (Jesus) sits on the throne of highest honor in heaven, at God's (YAHWEH's) right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.

So who is this Holy Spirit that is being poured out?

2Cr 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious?
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

This flows seamlessly into a Trinitarian view of God. Jesus, at the right hand of God, is nto simultaneously acting as the Paraklete, but makes intercession on our behalf.

The Father did leave Jesus on the cross and to Jesus this was more horrible then the beatings. A trinitarian cannot grasp this.

That's an odd thing to say, and has no bearing on anything. I am most decidedly Trinitarian, and no such lack of grasp exists.

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus' soul and body was in the grave or hell, His spirit/life/breath went to YAHWEH who gives it. This spirit/life/breath is the same life that was given to Adam at creation when Adam became a living soul and is the same life that we all have.

Again, no bearing on the discussion at hand, and in no way an explanation of your earlier assertions in re the deity and nature of Christ.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (body).

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (body).

Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

I still can't see how that last relates to anything. Yes, Christ died. Yes, his body was entombed and He went down into Hell to preacxh to the captives there. This, too, is noted in Scripture. What has it to do with the rest?