-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Holy Spirit and Salvation !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
Tenchi
Active Member
Read the rest of my post.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
It doesnt matter, your comment initially was so off
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Mathetes66
Member
Once again Brightfame, you are pulling Gal 5:22 out of its context. Paul is writing to people who have already been saved for awhile in various churches throughout Galatia. He is writing them primarily about not going back under the Law but continuing in THE SANCTIFYING WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, of which the fruit of the Spirit is a major part in those already saved & growing in Christ.
Gal 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ & God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers who are with me, TO THE CHURCHES OF GALATIA: GRACE TO YOU & PEACE from God our Father & the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from THE PRESENT EVIL AGE, according to the will of our God & Father, 5to whom be the glory forever & ever. Amen.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him WHO CALLED YOU IN THE GRACE OF CHRIST & are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you & want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 3:2-5 Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit & worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:16-18 Now to Abraham & HIS SEED WERE THE PROMISES MADE. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; BUT AS OF ONE & TO THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. 17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was 430 years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise...26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:4-7 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And BECAUSE YOU ARE SONS--God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Gal 5:1,13 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free & be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:16=18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit & ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit & the Spirit against the flesh & these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law...And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections & lusts.
Paul then contrasts the deeds of the flesh with those of the fruit of the Spirit FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN REGENERATED CHRISTIANS FOR YEARS--this is talking about SANCTIFICATION not justification & saved from the penalty of sin. Here in context, Paul is talking about sanctification -- being saved from the power of sin over our lives. Paul, in writing to the believers in the churches in the province of Galatia, is not talking about regeneration but sanctification and Gal 5:22 is in the middle of Paul talking about this. One cannot ignore the CONTEXT of Gal 5:22.
Gal 1:1,2 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ & God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2and all the brothers who are with me, TO THE CHURCHES OF GALATIA: GRACE TO YOU & PEACE from God our Father & the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from THE PRESENT EVIL AGE, according to the will of our God & Father, 5to whom be the glory forever & ever. Amen.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him WHO CALLED YOU IN THE GRACE OF CHRIST & are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you & want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 3:2-5 Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit & worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:16-18 Now to Abraham & HIS SEED WERE THE PROMISES MADE. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; BUT AS OF ONE & TO THY SEED, WHICH IS CHRIST. 17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was 430 years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise...26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 4:4-7 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And BECAUSE YOU ARE SONS--God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Gal 5:1,13 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free & be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:16=18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit & ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit & the Spirit against the flesh & these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law...And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections & lusts.
Paul then contrasts the deeds of the flesh with those of the fruit of the Spirit FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN REGENERATED CHRISTIANS FOR YEARS--this is talking about SANCTIFICATION not justification & saved from the penalty of sin. Here in context, Paul is talking about sanctification -- being saved from the power of sin over our lives. Paul, in writing to the believers in the churches in the province of Galatia, is not talking about regeneration but sanctification and Gal 5:22 is in the middle of Paul talking about this. One cannot ignore the CONTEXT of Gal 5:22.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Belief of the Truth is Salvation !
2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Salvation here is belief of the Truth and its part of Christ's Saving Work, the merits of it, which necessitates all for whom He died to believe the Truth. God from the beginning hath chosen them to this Salvation.
The word Salvation here is the greek word σωτηρία and means:
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation: deliverance from the molestation of enemies
Unbelief/disobedience is an enemie, it holds all by nature prison to it. God hath concluded all in unbelief Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The word concluded sugkleió means:
I enclose, shut in, make subject to.
Did you know that the devil is the enemy that holds us in unbelief ? Look at 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world[The devil] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Folks, the devil , the god of this world, is credited with holding men in unbelief, even after hearing the Word of God to be saved Lk 8:12
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Folks, the devil is an enemy against believing the Truth so that it converts to God !
But Christ through His death delivers those He dies for from their enemies, particularily spiritual enemies Lk 1:69-75
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; Satan, the devil hates those Christ died for !
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
The Holy Spirits sanctifying work in 2 Thess 2:13 implements the deliverance / saving of all for whom Christ died, from the enemy of unbelief. The devil cannot perform his enemy work here with success to them Christ died for Lk 8:12
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
See the devil here prevents conversion to belief of the Truth that was heard, however Christ delivers those He died for from the devil and this work of his !
Now, if we say that we believed the Truth by our own freewill, then we are claiming that we are our own saviour, this is blasphemy and antichrist ! See we have to be saved from the enemy of unbelief in order to belief of the Truth, and Christ is the Savior from Unbelief ! 5
2 Thess 2:13
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Salvation here is belief of the Truth and its part of Christ's Saving Work, the merits of it, which necessitates all for whom He died to believe the Truth. God from the beginning hath chosen them to this Salvation.
The word Salvation here is the greek word σωτηρία and means:
deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation: deliverance from the molestation of enemies
Unbelief/disobedience is an enemie, it holds all by nature prison to it. God hath concluded all in unbelief Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The word concluded sugkleió means:
I enclose, shut in, make subject to.
Did you know that the devil is the enemy that holds us in unbelief ? Look at 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world[The devil] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Folks, the devil , the god of this world, is credited with holding men in unbelief, even after hearing the Word of God to be saved Lk 8:12
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Folks, the devil is an enemy against believing the Truth so that it converts to God !
But Christ through His death delivers those He dies for from their enemies, particularily spiritual enemies Lk 1:69-75
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; Satan, the devil hates those Christ died for !
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
The Holy Spirits sanctifying work in 2 Thess 2:13 implements the deliverance / saving of all for whom Christ died, from the enemy of unbelief. The devil cannot perform his enemy work here with success to them Christ died for Lk 8:12
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
See the devil here prevents conversion to belief of the Truth that was heard, however Christ delivers those He died for from the devil and this work of his !
Now, if we say that we believed the Truth by our own freewill, then we are claiming that we are our own saviour, this is blasphemy and antichrist ! See we have to be saved from the enemy of unbelief in order to belief of the Truth, and Christ is the Savior from Unbelief ! 5
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Mathetes66
No Im not, yet Im highlighting a truth found within the context of scripture, and you are resisting it. Its simple Faith and Faithfulness are fruit of the Spirit, none of this is in man naturally. Vs 22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Here is what is in man naturally Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
John Gill writes:
No Im not, yet Im highlighting a truth found within the context of scripture, and you are resisting it. Its simple Faith and Faithfulness are fruit of the Spirit, none of this is in man naturally. Vs 22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Here is what is in man naturally Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
John Gill writes:
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Why the Holy Spirit given before the Gospel sent ?
1 Cor 2:12
12 Now we [Believers] have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
The Spirit is given as a Spiritual Blessing to all for whom Christ died and redeemed [See Gal 3:13-14] that they may know [come to know experientially] that Christ gave Himself for us Gal 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
We need to be given the Spirit first to come to know this Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Mk 10:45
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
And the Spirit is given to all for whom He gave Himself for that they may come to know it in a for real spiritual manner ! 5
1 Cor 2:12
12 Now we [Believers] have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
The Spirit is given as a Spiritual Blessing to all for whom Christ died and redeemed [See Gal 3:13-14] that they may know [come to know experientially] that Christ gave Himself for us Gal 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
We need to be given the Spirit first to come to know this Titus 2:14
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Mk 10:45
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
And the Spirit is given to all for whom He gave Himself for that they may come to know it in a for real spiritual manner ! 5
Tenchi
Active Member
The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. (Jn. 16:8). He does not need to indwell a person in a born-again sense, though, in order to do this. In fact, several instances in Acts demonstrate that he "comes upon" a person in a spiritually-regenerative way only after they've heard and believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I've already pointed this out in an earlier post, which you've ignored.
Acts 19:1-7
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
7 There were in all about twelve men.
This was the same order of events described in Acts 10 concerning Cornelius and his relatives who were also converted. They, too, heard the Gospel, believed it and then the Holy Spirit came upon them.
The very same order of events is laid out in Acts 8:
Acts 8:14-17
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
See? Folks in Samaria had received (heard and believed) the "word of God" (i.e. the Gospel). And so, the apostles, Peter and John, were sent to the Samaritan believers to impart to them the Holy Spirit who had not yet fallen upon any of them.
This plain and repeated ordo salutis aside, it is a bizarre notion - one of many in Calvinism - that God essentially saves a person in order so that they may believe the Gospel and be saved. Scripture makes salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit synonymous (Ro. 8:9-14; 1 Jn. 4:13; Tit. 3:5; Jn. 3:3-8). To be saved is to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. So, then, a person who is so indwelt is "born-again," spiritually-regenerated, made a new creature in Christ, etc. You are proposing that this spiritual "second birth" actually happens entirely apart from the hearing and belief in the Gospel, as Calvinism (not Scripture) demands. But this isn't what God's word indicates:
Luke 8:11-12
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then the devil comes, and takes the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Acts 16:30-31
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, and your house.
1 John 5:10
10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
Why, if God saves people entirely without their having heard and believed the Gospel, do they need to hear and believe the Gospel? They have been saved already without doing so.
What sort of initial regeneration is it that requires a second "saving" through the hearing and belief in the Gospel? Is it correct to call it regeneration since, it seems, more is required to complete the regeneration? Why couldn't the Spirit simply move upon a lost person as he did upon, say, Samson, giving them temporary illumination of the Gospel, as he gave Samson temporary strength?
Surely, you can see why people scoff at these contortions Calvinism forces folks like yourself to make in its defense and why, then, it is of no interest to them.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Tenchi
Active Member
Uh huh.