I was thinking the same thing when he started quoting Chafer.
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The Holy Spirit and the Rapture
- Thread starter Sapper Woody
- Start date
I don't need your chart. I did a search for the word "dispensation," and used the definition that came from Chafer. I don't have his book. Why do you jump to conclusions?
It really is hard to carry on a discussion with you. You try to attack the person and derail it every time.
The first link I posted did not work BW318....but I copied the picture of a laminated chart I had back in the 70's or 80's....it shows the teaching just as O.R. spoke of it
You do need the chart...it is better than what you suggest....
it is you who derail the threads...I just respond to what you offer...so when it gets derailed by you what do you expect is going to happen.
You claim to have 2000+ books...do not even try to make believe you just happened to come to the same conclusions without using these sources DHK.
Frankly...I do not enjoy responding to your posts as you seek to lecture us as if you have it down , when you do not. Your attacks against the Cals , and all the false teaching you offer needs to be spoken against.
I have not made personal attacks against you. It might seem that way because I have demonstrated you bearing false witness against me and several others.
Dc does similar . he claims he doesn't but we have shown it,
I prefer to deal with people who let their yes be yes, and their no, no.
If you do not attack you have nothing to worry about.
You did not respond to the post, you just claimed I am attacking you.
Do you believe it is literal fire coming from their mouth[two witnesses}? that was the question...it is not an attack but a question.
According to Heb.1:1 "spake in divers manners in time past..." Time past unto the fathers and the prophets are the OT eras which the author of Hebrews is referring to. He spoke to them in "time past" as opposed to "in these last days." At the very least there are two eras of time being contrasted if not more. There are also different methods of God communicating his revelation to mankind suggested.
You are wrong.
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--The Word clearly says "BY his Son," not "In Son," as you erroneously claim.
This is not speaking of the incarnation, but simply that Jesus Christ is the last vehicle of revelation. No other prophet will follow him. However all that we need to know about him is in the Word. The revelation that we have is in God's Word.
I have already given you the definition of dispensation.
The ECF were Chiliasts and premillennial. I don't need to go on repeating myself. You simply need to start acknowledging the truth at some point in your life.
I just would like to ask:
Is there EVER a time in Scriptures where humankind as a collective body does NOT fail, and God Not bring judgement upon them - and by extrapolation our time?
What of the apostasy Peter warned and Paul said would be a part of the Church?
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." (Peter)
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (Paul)
Even in end of the Millennium (be it what the covenant or Darby views) the Scriptures states:"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (Paul)
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
The pattern is only broken in the final estate of the New Heaven and New Earth.
Why, because all believers will be "like Him."
It seems to me that the pattern of failure is very much what makes up the history of humankind.
Literally...IT IS IN SON...
you do not know what you are talking about once again. This is not a personal attack, just a fact......
theselastdays has spoken (3SAAI) to us in His Son, whom He appointed(3SAAI) heir of allthings, throughwhomalso He made (3SAAI) the world.(NASB: Lockman)
Greek: ep' eschatoutonhemerontoutonelalesen (3SAAI) heminenhuioi,oneqeken (3SAAI) kleronomonpanton,di'oukaiepoiesen (3SAAI) tousaionas
Amplified: [But] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order]. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
Barclay: but in the end of these days he has spoken to us in One who is a Son, a Son whom he destined to enter into possession of all things, a Son by whose agency he made the universe.
;NLT: And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.
(NLT - Tyndale House)Phillips: has now, at the end of the present age, given us the truth in the Son. Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son he has ordained that all creation shall ultimately belong (Phillips: Touchstone)Wuest: in the last of these days spoke to us in One who by nature is [His] Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He constituted the ages; (Eerdmans) Young's Literal: in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
God . . . hath in these last days spoken unto us by"—better "in (His) Son"[ John Brown]
"In (His) Son" (verse 2). Christ is the "Son of God" in two respects [AWPINK]
"God . . . hath in these last days spoken unto us by (His) Son." It will be noted that the word "His" is in italics, which means there is no corresponding word in the original. But the omission of this word makes the sentence obscure; nor are we helped very much when we learn that the preposition "by" should be "in." "God hath spoken in Son."
Yet really, this is not so obscure as at first it seems. Were a friend to tell you that he had visited a certain church, and that the preacher "spoke in Latin," you would have no difficulty in understanding what he meant: "spoke in Latin would intimate that that particular language marked his utterance. Such is the thought here. "In Son" has reference to that which characterized God’s revelation. The thought of the contrast is that God, who of old had spoken prophet-wise, now speaks son-wise. The thought is similar to that expressed in 1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in flesh," the words "in flesh" referring to that which characterized the Divine manifestation. God was not manifested in intangible and invisible ether, nor did He appear in angelic form; but "in flesh." So He has now spoken "in Son," Son-wisely.
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Good point agedmanI just would like to ask:
What of the apostasy Peter warned and Paul said would be a part of the Church?
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." (Peter)Even in end of the Millennium (be it what the covenant or Darby views) the Scriptures states:
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" (Paul)
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."The pattern is only broken in the final estate of the New Heaven and New Earth.
Why, because all believers will be "like Him."
It seems to me that the pattern of failure is very much what makes up the history of humankind.
I know someone who wrote a book on this very topic;rom5
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound
DHK probably used the NIV rendering:
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."
Not a lot of difference though, because the word can also be translated: through, by, or in.
In fact, most versions (NIV, ESV, KJV...) state "by" as the preferred word.
Just helping out.
"God . . . hath in these last days spoken unto us by (His) Son." It will be noted that the word "His" is in italics, which means there is no corresponding word in the originalDHK probably used the NIV rendering:
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."Not a lot of difference though, because the word can also be translated: through, by, or in.
In fact, most versions (NIV, ESV, KJV...) state "by" as the preferred word.
Just helping out.
Your complaint is frivolous. Yes, it can be translated "in son." So? Does that change the intent and meaning of what the author is saying in the first two verses? No, not at all.
Vincent, in his "Word Studies" says:
Note the contrast is still there. He is contrasting Christ to the prophets. He who is the "son" is distinguished from that entire class of OT prophets "in times past." Christ came at a different time and he is in a different category. God's revelation came directly from God Himself when Christ was on the earth, and now "in these last days," from His Word.
In lk 24....Jesus gave a Bible study showing that all the prophets spoke of Him....it is not a contrast but a blending together of all 66 books IN SON.....GOD MADE A DEFINITIVE STATEMENT IN SON
In view is an argument presented to deny dispensations, which is itself to deny Dispensationalism.
The fact of the matter is simply that prior to God speaking to us by His Son, Through His Son, in His Son...
...He spoke differently, and this because prior to God speaking to us by His Son, Through His Son, in His Son...
...He spoke through Prophets.
Hebrews 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
It is quite obvious there is a difference of ministration, and anyone who denies that there is a revelation of that which was not previously revealed simply has not bothered to understand the New Testament. The denial that the Covenants contain the same provision diminishes the magnitude of Christ's prophesied coming being fulfilled.
This is under (the Covenant of) Law:
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
King James Version (KJV)
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
This is under the New Covenant:
Hebrews 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
And that is the heart of the issue, which is dragged into a thread about the Holy Spirit and the Rapture.
I would like to ask the Moderators at this time to move this argument to a relevant thread so that the Discussion of the OP is not further derailed.
God bless.
Darrell C,
No...not at all. There is a proper use of the term dispensation which you might not have discovered yet.
here if from Vines nt dictionary;Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
<1,,3622,oikonomia> primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke 16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it (a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1 Cor. 9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation"); (b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, Col. 1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph. 3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;" (c) in Eph. 1:10; 3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph. 3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1 Tim. 1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of (a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of (c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.
No....God's word is God's word if it comes through a prophet, or the Son Himself.
The fact that God speaks ....IN SON....in all His Holy perfection visibly manifest, does not change the message.
Hebrews 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
No one denies this at all.....
This is under (the Covenant of) Law:
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
.
No...not at all. There is a proper use of the term dispensation which you might not have discovered yet.
here if from Vines nt dictionary;Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
<1,,3622,oikonomia> primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke 16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it (a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1 Cor. 9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation"); (b) to the stewardship commited to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and imparted cycle of truths which are consummated in the truth relating to the Church as the Body of Christ, Col. 1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph. 3:2, of the grace of God given him as a stewardship ("dispensation") in regard to the same "mystery;" (c) in Eph. 1:10; 3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth in Christ. In Eph. 3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1 Tim. 1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of (a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of (c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.
No....God's word is God's word if it comes through a prophet, or the Son Himself.
The fact that God speaks ....IN SON....in all His Holy perfection visibly manifest, does not change the message.
Hebrews 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
No one denies this at all.....
No one denies the progressive nature of the covenants of promise, under the primary Covenant of Redemption......except, maybe you? hard to say as you refuse to consider it.
This is under (the Covenant of) Law:
Deuteronomy 18:15-19
Many looked forward to this promise.
Place this in a relevant thread and I will address your confusion about a Bible Basic such as there is a point in time when the Son of God came from Heaven, and that prior to that God progressively revealed that this would one day become a reality.
This is a thread concerning the Holy Spirit and the Rapture.
God bless.
This is the OP. Please address your remarks from henceforth to this topic.