The Holy Spirit and the Rapture

[Sapper Woody]

This is a splinter thread birthed from a discussion of the misconceptions of dispensationalism. Let me be clear, this thread is NOT to debate Pre-Mil, A-Mil, Pre-Trib, etc. It's not to discuss dispensationalism.

This thread is to discuss the rapture. Specifically, it was started to discuss the Holy Spirit's involvement after the rapture, but I'm going to expand it to include all discussions concerning the rapture and its effects.

Once again, this is not to debate the rapture. That is not the topic. The topic is to discuss what happens after.

The question that lead to the starting of this thread was:

do you believe the H.S. will be removed after the rapture?

My simple answer in that thread was, "I don't know".

I will be up front and honest. My study of the Bible is mostly Biblical history. I don't claim to be a scholar of prophecy, especially prophecies with future fulfillment.

With that being said, I am torn over whether or not the H.S. will be present after the rapture. To start, I think we need to understand that there will be conversions after the rapture. This means that there will definitely be a presence of the H.S. residing in the individual believers. However, on a larger scale, I'm uncertain of whether the H.S. will essentially leave the earth to its own devices, or will still be trying to work on people, though unsuccessfully.

As I discuss it, I keep leaning one way or the other. Other people's views and discussions are appreciated.

 

[kyredneck]

...The topic is to discuss what happens after...

I've neither watched the movie nor read the books, but what was the gist of the 'Left Behind' series? Are you in agreement with it?

 

[Sapper Woody]

I've neither watched the movie nor read the books, but what was the gist of the 'Left Behind' series? Are you in agreement with it?

I read the first few (five, I think) books as a teenager. It was a great fictional read. The theology was off, and the story was mostly speculation. if you read the books, you can't read them as non-fiction. Read them for entertainment only.

 

[revmwc]

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Who is He that letteth? The Holy Spirit is the one who lets. Then it says until He be taken away, and then the wicked one will be revealed. That is as the Church so will the Holy Spirit go with her.

Now what about those saved in the Tribulation and the Holy Spirit, it will be like the O.T. believer we see in judges:

Judges 3:10
And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the Lord delivered Chushanrishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushanrishathaim.


Judges 6:34
But the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abiezer was gathered after him.


Judges 11:29
Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.


Judges 14:19
And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.

In the time before the church that is before Pentecost He (the Holy Spirit) came upon whom He would. Those He had a special mission for so too will the tribulation period be that is post Rapture time.

 

[Revmitchell]

To start, I think we need to understand that there will be conversions after the rapture. This means that there will definitely be a presence of the H.S. residing in the individual believers.

That is not a given. It was certainly not true prior to the church age. It is not likely to be true after the church is raptured.

 

[InTheLight]

That is not a given. It was certainly not true prior to the church age. It is not likely to be true after the church is raptured.

If you believe in the rapture then all believers will have been removed. We know there will be tribulation saints. So there must be converts from after the rapture. Are you saying these believers won't be indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Or are you unsure either way?

 

[revmwc]

If you believe in the rapture then all believers will have been removed. We know there will be tribulation saints. So there must be converts from after the rapture. Are you saying these believers won't be indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Or are you unsure either way?

The Holy Spirit will be as He was in O.T. time He will come upon whom He will, those who have a special mission. There were many believers seen in the O.T. but not one is said to have been indwelt permanently by the Holy Spirit. In fact it was said Samson strength came to him as the Spirit of God came upon Him.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you believe in the rapture then all believers will have been removed. We know there will be tribulation saints. So there must be converts from after the rapture. Are you saying these believers won't be indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Or are you unsure either way?

Yes that is what I am saying. If they were not indwelt prior to the church age (and they weren't) then they will not be after the rapture as the tribulation period is a continuance of the 70 weeks.

Further, when the church is raptured (I Thess 4:17) so will the indwelling of the HG. His role is not just as an indweller and (paraklete-come along side) us but He is also the restrainer and will be removed (2Thess 2:7) so the anti-Christ can come and act in an unrestrained manner. The role of the HG then returns to a external role for the believer rather than internal.

 

[DHK]

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

The purpose of salt:
It is a preservative--it preserves things like pickles and most canned foods, etc.
It is retardant--It retards the growth of fungus or bacteria. Thus it is commonly used for cleaning.
Those are the two primary purposes of salt. There are 37 of them given here:
http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/37-smart-uses-of-salt-for-non-toxic-cleaning-purposes

Then it says we are the light of the world.

A Christian has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him. He preserves what good there is. He retards or prevents the evil from spreading. He is a light and thus where he is the darkness cannot enter.

When the believer is raptured, that "light" will be removed. Darkness will prevail. There will be nothing any longer to "restrain" evil. That is what the verse is speaking of.

However the Holy Spirit is omniscient. The third person of the triune Godhead can never be taken away from any place. He will always be there. "He who restrains," is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit through the believers who will be raptured. Then there will be nothing in the world to stop evil and wickedness from quickly spreading and permeating every corner of the earth.
No salt.
No light.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Yes that is what I am saying. If they were not indwelt prior to the church age (and they weren't) then they will not be after the rapture as the tribulation period is a continuance of the 70 weeks.

David disagrees with you

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

So does Piper

Second, the OT believers experienced the new birth and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When Nicodemus was bewildered about Jesus' demand for new birth by the Spirit, Jesus responded (John 3:10), "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand this?" In other words, I'm not teaching or requiring anything new. Any Israelite who has ever been saved had to be born again by God's Spirit. Otherwise how would they ever overcome their natural hostility to God? How could they have ever submitted to God's law and pleased him—as many did, like Abel and Noah and Abraham and Moses and Rahab and Ruth and Deborah and David?

Paul says in Romans 8:7–9, "The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed, it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit if the Spirit of God really dwells in you." There are two groups of humans: those in the flesh (born of the flesh) and those in the Spirit (born again of the Spirit). Those in the flesh are devoid of the Spirit and cannot submit to God's law or please God. Those in the Spirit are indwelt by the Spirit and are enabled by him to fulfill the just requirement of the law.

This means that all the saints of the OT who trusted God and followed his ways in the obedience of faith were born again by the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit. For example, Numbers 14:24 says of Caleb, "My servant Caleb, because he has a different Spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into this land." And Numbers 27: 18 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him.'" The OT believers were saved the same way we are: they were born of the Spirit, they trusted in God's promises, and they followed his commandments in the obedience of faith. http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/how-believers-experienced-the-spirit-before-pentecost

 

[Thousand Hills]

Then it says we are the light of the world.

A Christian has the Holy Spirit dwelling within him. He preserves what good there is. He retards or prevents the evil from spreading. He is a light and thus where he is the darkness cannot enter.

When the believer is raptured, that "light" will be removed. Darkness will prevail. There will be nothing any longer to "restrain" evil. That is what the verse is speaking of.

However the Holy Spirit is omniscient. The third person of the triune Godhead can never be taken away from any place. He will always be there. "He who restrains," is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit through the believers who will be raptured. Then there will be nothing in the world to stop evil and wickedness from quickly spreading and permeating every corner of the earth.
No salt.
No light.

So, will anyone be saved during the tribulation period? If so how will this be accomplished without the work of the H.S ?

 

[Thousand Hills]

Further, when the church is raptured (I Thess 4:17) so will the indwelling of the HG. His role is not just as an indweller and (paraklete-come along side) us but He is also the restrainer and will be removed (2Thess 2:7) so the anti-Christ can come and act in an unrestrained manner. The role of the HG then returns to a external role for the believer rather than internal.

So the following verses don't apply to those saved during the tribulation period?

2 Corinthians 1: 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

 

[revmwc]

So, will anyone be saved during the tribulation period? If so how will this be accomplished without the work of the H.S ?

The same way it worked in the Old Testament.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Who is He that letteth? The Holy Spirit is the one who lets. Then it says until He be taken away, and then the wicked one will be revealed. That is as the Church so will the Holy Spirit go with her.

Now what about those saved in the Tribulation and the Holy Spirit, it will be like the O.T. believer we see in judges:

So are those saved before the rapture only the bride of Christ, or are those saved after the rapture also considered to be the bride of Christ?

In the time before the church that is before Pentecost He (the Holy Spirit) came upon whom He would. Those He had a special mission for so too will the tribulation period be that is post Rapture time.

So, if I'm reading this right, its your point of view that the HS in OT times only indwelt certain people who he had a special mission for. But in the church age the HS indwells all believers (even "carnal christians" who are not doing his will)?

 

[Thousand Hills]

The same way it worked in the Old Testament.

Which was?

 

[DHK]

So, will anyone be saved during the tribulation period? If so how will this be accomplished without the work of the H.S ?

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The above is the KJV. Let me post the ESV for comparison sake:
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe that during the end of the Tribulation Israel as a nation will be saved. Some of them may be martyred and they also may turn to Christ before they die. The focus of the Tribulation is two-fold:
--God's wrath on the Gentile world.
--God's restoration and salvation of the nation of Israel.

It seems to me that there will not be any Gentiles saved out of the Tribulation apart from the Jews, for the reasons given in the above scriptures.

 

[Thousand Hills]

I believe that during the end of the Tribulation Israel as a nation will be saved. Some of them may be martyred and they also may turn to Christ before they die. The focus of the Tribulation is two-fold:
--God's wrath on the Gentile world.
--God's restoration and salvation of the nation of Israel.

It seems to me that there will not be any Gentiles saved out of the Tribulation apart from the Jews, for the reasons given in the above scriptures.

I somewhat posed this question to Revmwc a few posts ago, but based upon your response it appears that unless your part of the church prior to the rapture, if your a gentile your just out of luck during the tribulation. But, if you are jewish you've got a shot. So, there appears to be a difference from the nation of israel and the bride of Christ (the church). Is this just applicable in the tribulation period or in this age as well?

 

[revmwc]

I somewhat posed this question to Revmwc a few posts ago, but based upon your response it appears that unless your part of the church prior to the rapture, if your a gentile your just out of luck during the tribulation. But, if you are jewish you've got a shot. So, there appears to be a difference from the nation of israel and the bride of Christ (the church). Is this just applicable in the tribulation period or in this age as well?

Revelation there says there is a multitude saved in the Tribulation. Some teach no but Revelation states it as a multitude saved and many of those martyred. 144,000 Jews are sealed before the Tribulation is allowed to come full force. But I see that many will be saved in the Tribulation.

 

[revmwc]

So are those saved before the rapture only the bride of Christ, or are those saved after the rapture also considered to be the bride of Christ?



So, if I'm reading this right, its your point of view that the HS in OT times only indwelt certain people who he had a special mission for. But in the church age the HS indwells all believers (even "carnal christians" who are not doing his will)?

I'm afraid we are getting off the OP and were asked no too.

Those saved between Pentecost and the Rapture are indwelt and filled with the Holy Spirit at salvation. The indwelling of the Spirit remains throughout our physical life. The filling comes and goes, we see Ephesians 5:18 and Paul's command to be filled with the Spirit. But he also tells us our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit who indwells us and we are told not to defile that temple in 1 Corinthians 3:17. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 we see the indwelling and the command to glorify Ogd in our Body and Spirit.

When the Church is called home then the Holy Spirit which letteth will be removed with the church. The Holy came upon the O.T. believers and filled them people such as Sams his eyes were put out said this,

Judges 16:28 And Samson called unto the Lord, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

Where was Samson strength throughout his battles?

Judges 13:25 And the Spirit of the Lord began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

Notice it says the Spirit of the Lord began to move him at times. His strength came from the Holy Spirit as the Spirit moved upon at certain times. Thus he the Holy Spirit moved upon the O.T. saints when He willed that is when it was God's will.

 

[Thousand Hills]

Revelation there says there is a multitude saved in the Tribulation. Some teach no but Revelation states it as a multitude saved and many of those martyred. 144,000 Jews are sealed before the Tribulation is allowed to come full force. But I see that many will be saved in the Tribulation.

So it appears you disagree with DHK, and that many will be saved, possibly to include gentiles? But based upon your response in Post #7 (below), the H.S. will only work in a way similar to, in your opinion, the way he worked in the OT and that only for those who there is a "special mission" for?

The Holy Spirit will be as He was in O.T. time He will come upon whom He will, those who have a special mission. There were many believers seen in the O.T. but not one is said to have been indwelt permanently by the Holy Spirit. In fact it was said Samson strength came to him as the Spirit of God came upon Him.