The Holy Spirit and the Rapture

[Darrell C]

Is this 'the rapture'?:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15

If it is, Paul has already made it clear, "then cometh the end":

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

"Then cometh the end", no mention of a seven year tribulation or conversions or another 1000 years of human existence on earth. The kingdom has been already, Christ has reigned already.

You do well to separate these verses because the former is distinctly in regards to the Rapture and applicable to believers, while the Second simply presents the order, which separates Christ's glorification from those at His Coming, and then comes the end. If there is only one, why point out "...each in his own order?"

And the mention of the Millennial Kingdom is found in Revelation 20. You refuse to accept that, and how that correlates to all Prophecy, and spiritualize it away. There we see that only one group is resurrected, that being Tribulation Martyrs. It is not for a thousand years that the general resurrection, at which time unbelievers are raised.

And Christ has not yet taken possession of the earth as is stated in Prophecy:


Revelation 11:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.




This does not detract from the Sovereignty of God, simply points out what Scripture points out elsewhere in regards to powers that have control in the world today.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

You do well to separate these verses ....

No. Extreme futurists such as yourself must fragment in order to support your fabrications. There's no separation called for here.

And the mention of the Millennial Kingdom is found in Revelation 20. You refuse to accept that....

Wrong. You're misrepresenting me. Christ is reigning from heaven. No where in the entire book does Christ ever set foot on terra firma.

 

[revmwc]

Is this 'the rapture'?:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15

If it is, Paul has already made it clear, "then cometh the end":

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

"Then cometh the end", no mention of a seven year tribulation or conversions or another 1000 years of human existence on earth. The kingdom has been already, Christ has reigned already.

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.

God's order of events: Christ came at His first advent and was crucified, died, buried and as the First fruit's of Resurrection rose from the grave.
Then when He comes for His church those who are His at His coming for those who "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the end of age trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." that is at the rapture. As He has stated in the preceding Verses.

So when did He come for His own? It surely was not 70 A.D. because had it come the Kingdom would have been ushered in. But the Promised Kingdom had some very distinct markings:

Isaiah 11:
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Is the wolf dwelling with the lamb? The leopard with the kid? How about the calf with the young lion? Do the cow and bear feed together?

Yet we are told this will happen in the time when the root of Jesse is reigning, and God will gather the remnant of His people back from the nations in which they are dispersed. The dispersed from Judah that clearly makes it nation Israel. The Gentile nations shall seek Him as their King during the Kingdom age.

Until that happens he cannot offer up His Kingdom to the Father. But before He offers up His Kingdom He comes for those who are His at the end of the age, the end of the age of the church.


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.

 

[percho]

Is this 'the rapture'?:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15

If it is, Paul has already made it clear, "then cometh the end":

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

"Then cometh the end", no mention of a seven year tribulation or conversions or another 1000 years of human existence on earth. The kingdom has been already, Christ has reigned already.

Then cometh the end, of what?

BTW cometh? Should, cometh, be there?

 

[kyredneck]

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.

God's order of events: Christ came at His first advent and was crucified, died, buried and as the First fruit's of Resurrection rose from the grave.
Then when He comes for His church those who are His at His coming for those who "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the end of age trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." that is at the rapture. As He has stated in the preceding Verses....

OK.

So when did He come for His own?

He hasn't yet. But when He does "then cometh the end". As the passage implies, the kingdom has been already, He has reigned already, and the last enemy to be defeated is death, thus the resurrection of the dead along with the 'rapture'.

 

[revmwc]

OK.



He hasn't yet. But when He does "then cometh the end". As the passage implies, the kingdom has been already, He has reigned already, and the last enemy to be defeated is death, thus the resurrection of the dead along with the 'rapture'.

So you see Him coming for His own to include the unbeliever?

 

[kyredneck]

So you see Him coming for His own to include the unbeliever?

No. I should have phrased it 'resurrection of the saints'. We're off topic and Sapper's already scolded me over that, and duty calls, I've got to go work on the electric and heat for the church building.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Retracting this post in light of another post I hadn't yet seen when I posted it.

 

[percho]

The OP seems to me to ask. Being Pentecost, the feast of first fruit of the Spirit, set apart a people unto salvation, ie, the rapture at the feast of trumpets. That is, being raised and or changed incorruptible. What happens during the remaining two/three feast days? And how much time is involved?

 

[percho]

A.
Eph 1:4-9 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

I assume A. in bold are the Christ's at his coming of 1 Cor 15:23 and are the ones raptured, at his coming. That underlined, stating God has made known to those in bold.

What happens next? Is it not.

B.
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (self?)

Who/what will be gathered together, in Christ and delivered up to the Father, himself, of B,? Is there a time set for that?

 

[percho]

Then the end. The end of what?

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor 15:21,22

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed, (the) death. 1 Cor 15:25,26

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
You do well to separate these verses ....
Click to expand...

No. Extreme futurists such as yourself must fragment in order to support your fabrications. There's no separation called for here.

First, I am not an extremist futurist, I am simply a futurist who recognizes figurative language employed in Prophecy.

Secondly, there is separation called for...that is in the very text:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


We see Christ glorified, and afterwards...they that are Christ's at His coming. Then...He shall put down all rule and all authority and power.

It is a progression that we cannot dismiss, because we know that the Saints were not glorified when Christ was. While you might say that the latter two events are simultaneous, you cannot say that in regards to the Resurrection of Christ.

But to find the progression, we turn to the teachings of the New Testament and see that when Christ returns...physically living believers enter into the Kingdom, and only Tribulation Martyrs are listed as being glorified (implied by their duration in the Kingdom).

Lastly...aren't you glad I noticed my previous response disappeared?

And the mention of the Millennial Kingdom is found in Revelation 20. You refuse to accept that....
Click to expand...

Wrong. You're misrepresenting me. Christ is reigning from heaven. No where in the entire book does Christ ever set foot on terra firma.

It's not a misrepresentation, KR, it is simply a fact.

I have several times addressed this erroneous statement by posting where we see Christ return and set foot on terra firma, the Mount of Olives, as a matter of fact, which correlates to the Angels' statement that He will return in like manner that He left (from the Mount of Olives, associated with "clouds").

Perhaps you have addressed this response to your claim...


Zechariah 14:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

...but if you have I have missed it or it has disappeared as my previous response to this has.

Now you are asked to address it.

God bless.

 

[nailah783]

If the H.S. is what Jesus left us until he comes again, and he is coming again during the rapture, I must say that the H.S. will not be here after the rapture. Speaking of the rapture, I do have my own silly theory of when it will take place, and I have had this theory for some time, I'm not ashamed to say. The Bible says that no man knows the day or the hour, but I think that it will be sometime in the year 3000. This is because the Bible says a day in Heaven is like 1000 years on Earth. If the Lord rose on the 3rd day. Doesn't it make sense that he will come back on the 3rd day? Just a theory.

 

[Darrell C]

If the H.S. is what Jesus left us until he comes again, and he is coming again during the rapture, I must say that the H.S. will not be here after the rapture.

Hello Nailah, and welcome to the forum, I hope your time here will be blessed and that you in turn will be a blessing to those that are here.

It is not likely that the Omnipresent God will leave the earth at any time.

Now we do recognize that the Holy Spirit begins a specific ministry in this Age, that of Comforter, and that ministry is specific to this Age. So we might speculate that the "Comforter would leave at the Rapture, but this too is a stretch, because the Comforter's ministry has a focus of convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgment, which is intended to glorify Christ that men might be saved. We know that in the Tribulation people will be saved, and they will have to be born again, so we see that the results of God's Spirit and Word, even in the midst of judgment, is still to the purpose that men might be saved.

Another element in considering the Restrainer is that it is assumed exactly what that restraint is. A number of suggestions have arisen through the centuries and the one I feel is most suitable is that this is a reference to the Spirit of God, and we take into account that the Holy Spirit restrains sin in a number of ways. One of those ways is directly through believers. So it is not unreasonable to consider that when the Church is removed, we see that which could be viewed as a restraint of sin ceases. The restraint of evil has a particular focus on the coming/revealing of the Antichrist, so we don't neglect that detail either.

Bottom line is that restraint which is now in place will be removed before Antichrist is revealed, and that restraint we can safely say is attributed to God Himself, which could be equally attributed to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, for our God is One.

The last point I would make in regards to the Holy Spirit being taken out of the world is that this is not suggested by the text:


2 Thessalonians 2:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


In view is the Restrainer being taken out of the way, rather than out of the world. Some, in trying to support a Pre-Tribulation view, have so closely associated the Rapture with this event that the equation is made, which is not there. I am Pre-Tribulation in my views, but recognize the weakness and lack of Scriptural support for that view (the Spirit being taken out of the world at the Rapture).

It is also interesting that the "way" in view could be seen as "taken out of the midst," which correlates to the teachings we have in Scripture which presents the true unveiling of the Antichrist for what he truly is as taking place in the midst, or middle...of the Tribulation itself.

Speaking of the rapture, I do have my own silly theory of when it will take place, and I have had this theory for some time, I'm not ashamed to say. The Bible says that no man knows the day or the hour, but I think that it will be sometime in the year 3000. This is because the Bible says a day in Heaven is like 1000 years on Earth. If the Lord rose on the 3rd day. Doesn't it make sense that he will come back on the 3rd day? Just a theory.

That's a new one, and while I would not myself take that view, it might be equated with a little "silliness" of my own. I am a Young Earth Creationist and believe the universe will be here for approximately 7,000 years. I lean towards history having just under 6,000 years and that the Millennial Kingdom will be the fulfilling, on a temporal level, of the "Rest" promised to Israel. At that time they will have entered into the Rest you and I have in Christ on a spiritual level.

But an interesting theory.

Again, welcome to the forum.


God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

OK.



He hasn't yet. But when He does "then cometh the end". As the passage implies, the kingdom has been already, He has reigned already, and the last enemy to be defeated is death, thus the resurrection of the dead along with the 'rapture'.

The rapture is the last day as Jesus said 3x in jn6

 

[Darrell C]

The rapture is the last day as Jesus said 3x in jn6

Could you expand on that?


God bless.

 

[heisrisen]

The Holy Spirit will still be at work. It seals the 144,000, and probably draws people to be saved. But it won't seal people during the time of Jacob's trouble (after the rapture happens). People will have to endure to be saved.

 

[Darrell C]

The Holy Spirit will still be at work. It seals the 144,000, and probably draws people to be saved. But it won't seal people during the time of Jacob's trouble (after the rapture happens). People will have to endure to be saved.

The Time of Jacob's Trouble is the Tribulation, and it is in this period that it is asked whether He, not it, will still operate, or be there.

I am not nit-picking about the distinction between it and He, just want to point out that in this Age God ministers to people by His Spirit in the unique role of Comforter. Salvation arises when the Gospel is revealed to men, and the primary in this operation is God Himself, the Comforter. In the Tribulation we will see people saved like as we are, because we know that they will have to be saved through the Gospel and through faith in Christ Himself. So we are forced to se either see the sealing which takes place as equated to the sealing we experience today, which is a result of the Ministry of the Comforter, or, we have to present another way by which men will be "In Christ" in that time of judgment.

As far as people "enduring to be saved," that is correct only if we are speaking of temporal salvation, which is physical, and not equated to salvation in Christ. God has never, nor will He ever...save men due to their efforts. To suggest that man is saved in the Tribulation only if they "endure to the end" stands in stark contrast to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Men are saved by responding to the Word and will of God, and by no other means.

The endurance through the Tribulation simply speaks of validation of salvation, not the means. Those who endure will not only validate their faith, but they will in the most practical sense be "saved" from the conditions present during the Tribulation. We can say this because of the Tribulation Martyrs, who do not "endure," but are put to death for their faith. They are not only saved, but are a specific group distinctly resurrected at the end of the Tribulation, whereas the living nor the unjust dead are not named as being resurrected. The unjust dead are specifically stated as not being resurrected until the Kingdom is finished (or, until the thousand years are up).

The 144,000 are sealed during the Tribulation, which shows that men are being sanctified on an eternal basis in that period as well. So it seems more reasonable, I would think, to understand that the Spirit of God will still be ministering in that period, and based on the truth that only obedience to the Gospel is the acceptable means of relationship to and with God now, and we are given no other means that is valid.

God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Could you expand on that?


God bless.

Hello DC....

Yes I can expand on this a bit.

in jn5:Jesus explains how He is sent by THE FATHER...He is the Elect servant Of The Lord from the servant song in Isa.40-54
He always does the Fathers will. Jesus reveals the Father during His earthly ministry and as the Servant He never acts independently of the Fathers will.

This is His part in the Covenant of Redemption which was made between the Father, Son, and Spirit before the world was and is revealed in time. Now in jn 5 He explains the rapture.....then in Jn 6...he explains the timing of the rapture...the last day.
He explains the objects of the rapture.....All the Father gives to Me...shall come to Me.
He reveals the objects of God's Covenant love...Those elected by God before the world was, He comes to die for them alone with a perfect and 100% effectual work on the cross. Then He will ascend to the throne and send the Spirit to seek and secure all those given to Him. They are born from above at a point in time, made willing and able to believe savingly in the blood of the cross.
He then announces He will raise them up ....ON THE LAST DAY. All that are in the graves.....believers raised to life...unbelievers to the white throne judgment......look at the two sections and notice....nothing in 1thess4 in conflict with this, or 1 cor 15 .

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.






37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That will preach Iconoclast. Hallelujah.