The Holy Spirit and the Rapture

[Thousand Hills]

Notice it says the Spirit of the Lord began to move him at times. His strength came from the Holy Spirit as the Spirit moved upon at certain times. Thus he the Holy Spirit moved upon the O.T. saints when He willed that is when it was God's will.

So, in the OT God could trump man's free will via the H.S. to accomplish what he wanted to, but he can't do that in the church age? and I assume based upon your posts that he will be able to do it again in the tribulation period?

 

[revmwc]

So, in the OT God could trump man's free will via the H.S. to accomplish what he wanted to, but he can't do that in the church age? and I assume based upon your posts that he will be able to do it again in the tribulation period?

The Holy Spirit moved upon them for special service because of His omniscience that is He knew their heart. Many were believers in that time Lot vexed his soul daily in Sodom. Many of the Israelites who came out of Egypt were saved but those like Moses were set apart to special service just as we are today, but they were never told as we are that their bodies were the temple of the Holy Spirit. In fact the Holy Spirit for nation Israel resided in the Tabernacle followed by the Temple itself.

 

[Thousand Hills]

The Holy Spirit moved upon them for special service because of His omniscience that is He knew their heart.

So the H.S. reacted to something he saw in the select OT saints, that is something good seen inside them (inherent)?

Many of the Israelites who came out of Egypt were saved but those like Moses were set apart to special service just as we are today, but they were never told as we are that their bodies were the temple of the Holy Spirit. In fact the Holy Spirit for nation Israel resided in the Tabernacle followed by the Temple itself.

How do you reconcile that with what David says here?

Psalm 51

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

 

[revmwc]

So the H.S. reacted to something he saw in the select OT saints, that is something good seen inside them (inherent)?



How do you reconcile that with what David says here?

I will answer this tomorrow, I recently brought a message on this exact passage but it is on a different computer. I need to locate it and then can answer from that message.

 

[percho]

Raptured for what purpose?

Mat 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Luk 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

What did God begin to do on Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus? Of the Jews first and also of the Gentiles to take out from among them a people for his name.

Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the prophets and those taken out of the nations by God will be raptured to reign with Christ in the kingdom of God, on the earth, at his coming.

The dead in Christ will rise first and those whom God has call and are then alive will rise with the dead in Christ to meet him in the air as he is coming in the kingdom of God, which has been given to him and they will rule with him.

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, (the Holy Spirit) and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luke 19:11-17

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, <(the rapture) when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Meet him in the air en-route to the earth to set up the kingdom of God upon the earth and rule with him.

Satan shall be bound in the pit at this time.

After this <(calling out a people for his name) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: <the saving of all Israel) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[revmwc]

So the H.S. reacted to something he saw in the select OT saints, that is something good seen inside them (inherent)?



How do you reconcile that with what David says here?

The Holy Spirit had come upon David as King, because David was a man after God's on Heart. Just as the Holy Spirit had come upon King Saul.

1 Samuel 10:
6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.
10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

1 Samuel 11:
4 Then came the messengers to Gibeah of Saul, and told the tidings in the ears of the people: and all the people lifted up their voices, and wept.
5 And, behold, Saul came after the herd out of the field; and Saul said, What aileth the people that they weep? And they told him the tidings of the men of Jabesh.
6 And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.

Two places we are told the Holy Spirit came upon Saul. Once when it was prophesied by Samuel, the next when Nahas the Ammorite made a covenant with Him.The Holy Spirit came upon Him but it doesn't say He came into to Him and indwelt him.

David knew that if he sinned the presence of the Holy Spirit would abandon Him. He walked in sin for a season and committed murder. Once He confessed that sin and God was with David yet again. Never are we told that David's body. But He definitely came upon Him to guide His life.

 

[Darrell C]

This is a splinter thread birthed from a discussion of the misconceptions of dispensationalism. Let me be clear, this thread is NOT to debate Pre-Mil, A-Mil, Pre-Trib, etc. It's not to discuss dispensationalism.

This thread is to discuss the rapture. Specifically, it was started to discuss the Holy Spirit's involvement after the rapture, but I'm going to expand it to include all discussions concerning the rapture and its effects.

Once again, this is not to debate the rapture. That is not the topic. The topic is to discuss what happens after.

The question that lead to the starting of this thread was:


My simple answer in that thread was, "I don't know".

I will be up front and honest. My study of the Bible is mostly Biblical history. I don't claim to be a scholar of prophecy, especially prophecies with future fulfillment.

With that being said, I am torn over whether or not the H.S. will be present after the rapture. To start, I think we need to understand that there will be conversions after the rapture. This means that there will definitely be a presence of the H.S. residing in the individual believers. However, on a larger scale, I'm uncertain of whether the H.S. will essentially leave the earth to its own devices, or will still be trying to work on people, though unsuccessfully.

As I discuss it, I keep leaning one way or the other. Other people's views and discussions are appreciated.

Hello SW, just wanted to make a quick comment in regards to the Restrainer, and your question as to His presence in the Tribulation. First, remember that God is Omnipresent, so we can say that it is not God Who is taken out of the world, but, we look at what the text actually states:


2 Thessalonians 2:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



This is not stating the Restrainer is removed from the world, but that He is restraining evil, and the context has a focus on the revealing of Antichrist. Thus we understand this to mean that what happens is that restraining ceases and allows the revelation of the Antichrist.

How that would be relevant to the Rapture of the Church would be that it is through the Church that much restraint of evil is accomplished (and that in itself is an interesting topic of discussion). But the idea that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world because the Church is raptured does not fit with what we know of God. There has never been, nor will be, a time when God is not present in this world.

So the progression of thought in this second chapter is "No, you have not missed being gathered to Christ, you are not in the Tribulation, this is not the Day of the Lord, and I have already told you what will happen and you should not be fearful what you are hearing is true. The restraint of evil, and specifically Antichrist being revealed, will be removed, and only then will that wicked one be revealed."

In regards to the Holy Spirit's ministry in that day, I think it is made pretty clear that regeneration is required, thus we can say that men will be born again in that period. We see the Tribulation Martyrs raised in glorified form, and this implies they were born again during the period in which they were killed. New Birth is a process that applies to a person when they are alive physically, and while the Old Testament Saints stand as an exception, no-one Post-Pentecost is given that exception.

So basically we keep the context of the second chapter and we see there is no basis for the belief that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world, but that what is taken out of the way is restraint of evil, and evil in specific focus being Antichrist's revelation, which itself falls within a Tribulation context.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

I've neither watched the movie nor read the books, but what was the gist of the 'Left Behind' series? Are you in agreement with it?

I thought you knew; make money!

 

[DHK]

So it appears you disagree with DHK, and that many will be saved, possibly to include gentiles? But based upon your response in Post #7 (below), the H.S. will only work in a way similar to, in your opinion, the way he worked in the OT and that only for those who there is a "special mission" for?

Yes he does. But that disagreement is not significant. There are many things that are not specifically revealed to us about the Tribulation Period. Some things are: like its duration, when it is (before the Millennium), etc. But there is room for disagreement in some areas.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Thank you for your reply, Darrell. I don't see anything in your post that I disagree with out of hand. I feel that it might be helpful to the discussion to clarify what exactly I meant by the H.S. being present, however.

As God is Omnipresent, I agree that He will be present in the Tribulation. So, rather than talking about His "presence", maybe I should have stuck with discussing His "involvement", or possibly His "revelation". I think this is addressed in your response when you begin to talk about the ministry of the H.S. during the Tribulation. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Hello SW, just wanted to make a quick comment in regards to the Restrainer, and your question as to His presence in the Tribulation. First, remember that God is Omnipresent, so we can say that it is not God Who is taken out of the world, but, we look at what the text actually states:


2 Thessalonians 2:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:



This is not stating the Restrainer is removed from the world, but that He is restraining evil, and the context has a focus on the revealing of Antichrist. Thus we understand this to mean that what happens is that restraining ceases and allows the revelation of the Antichrist.

How that would be relevant to the Rapture of the Church would be that it is through the Church that much restraint of evil is accomplished (and that in itself is an interesting topic of discussion). But the idea that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world because the Church is raptured does not fit with what we know of God. There has never been, nor will be, a time when God is not present in this world.

So the progression of thought in this second chapter is "No, you have not missed being gathered to Christ, you are not in the Tribulation, this is not the Day of the Lord, and I have already told you what will happen and you should not be fearful what you are hearing is true. The restraint of evil, and specifically Antichrist being revealed, will be removed, and only then will that wicked one be revealed."

In regards to the Holy Spirit's ministry in that day, I think it is made pretty clear that regeneration is required, thus we can say that men will be born again in that period. We see the Tribulation Martyrs raised in glorified form, and this implies they were born again during the period in which they were killed. New Birth is a process that applies to a person when they are alive physically, and while the Old Testament Saints stand as an exception, no-one Post-Pentecost is given that exception.

So basically we keep the context of the second chapter and we see there is no basis for the belief that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world, but that what is taken out of the way is restraint of evil, and evil in specific focus being Antichrist's revelation, which itself falls within a Tribulation context.


God bless.

The topic of prophecies yet to be fulfilled is an interesting topic to me, but not so much of a concern that I've spent nearly the time looking into it and studying it as I have other aspects of theology. For this, most of my beliefs are based on the preaching of men I respect and trust, and reading men who believe different things and trying what they say by what I know from scripture.

Again, thank you for your response. At this point, I see nothing that I disagree with in your response.

 

[Darrell C]

Thank you for your reply, Darrell. I don't see anything in your post that I disagree with out of hand. I feel that it might be helpful to the discussion to clarify what exactly I meant by the H.S. being present, however.

As God is Omnipresent, I agree that He will be present in the Tribulation. So, rather than talking about His "presence", maybe I should have stuck with discussing His "involvement", or possibly His "revelation". I think this is addressed in your response when you begin to talk about the ministry of the H.S. during the Tribulation. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Don't really see confusion, just a sincere desire to look into this matter which is awesome.

Again, we consider that the Kingdom which was the expectation of Israel, which was a restored kingdom like unto her former glory, which would have the Son of David ruling, is considered by many (myself included), as the Millennial Kingdom described in Revelation 20. When Nicodemus spoke with Christ, we have Christ (Who is speaking in fuller understanding of the Kingdom of God), and Nicodemus (who was not privy to the revelation we have in revelation itself. That Book would be somewhat inappropriately named if in fact what is revealed was already revealed.

The point being...no Kingdom of God is entered apart from being born again. So whether we view that kingdom as the Millennial Kingdom, or the spiritual rule and reign of Christ in our hearts, or even the Eternal State which is the culmination and stopping point of all revelation we have, what is going to be required in the Tribulation is that men are born again.

Now we know that the Comforter came after Christ's Ascension for the specific ministry of convicting unbelievers:



John 16:7-9King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



Now that is the standard for the enlightenment of mankind in this current Age, and it is highly unlikely that the Gospel of Christ, and how it is conveyed to men will change in the Tribulation.

While some will teach that there is a reversion to Law, I would disagree with that. It is contrary to the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel, and revelation never backtracks, it only progresses. So we will have the Holy Spirit ministering among men, and through men even as He does today. That's how you and I were saved, and that's how men will be saved in that day. Any other scenario is hard pressed to be supported by Scripture.

The topic of prophecies yet to be fulfilled is an interesting topic to me, but not so much of a concern that I've spent nearly the time looking into it and studying it as I have other aspects of theology. For this, most of my beliefs are based on the preaching of men I respect and trust, and reading men who believe different things and trying what they say by what I know from scripture.

Again, thank you for your response. At this point, I see nothing that I disagree with in your response.

I am sure you know that Bible Study is somewhat like our metabolism, which actually feeds a hunger for more in the same way eating consistently keeps our metabolism going. If we fast long enough from food, we lose our appetite. Now I am not saying you don't study, but based on what you say here it sounds like Eschatology is an area perhaps you have not directed your attention to, and it sounds as though now you are.

That's great, because our eschatological views play a key role in balancing, believe it or not...our Soteriological views. Many great teachers of yesteryear can be found not to have developed a strong eschatology, some saying they have shied away from it openly.

But when we begin to delve into Prophecy from the Whole Counsel, we will see a consistency which is evidence of the divine nature of the Word of God. And how the end times will play out helps us to understand that the Redemptive Plan of God is consistent throughout Scripture. So if there is anything I can do to encourage you in this area while I am here, let me know. It is one of the most satisfying studies we engage in, and while it seems complicated at first glance, it is no different than other areas of study you have invested yourself in. It is matter of familiarity with the Books and concepts, which is easily enough acquired simply by first just reading a Book in focused attention. A preacher made a comment in a message once, and said "Before I even attempt to teach from a book, I sit down and read it fifty times." Well, one book that was confusing for me was Hebrews, and another Revelation. Got through them about ten times when things started making more sense.

So just give that a try. That familiarity with the Book will help you when you get to one point and have a relevant cross reference to compare it with.

Again, anything I can do to help, let me know.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

This is a splinter thread birthed from a discussion of the misconceptions of dispensationalism. Let me be clear, this thread is NOT to debate Pre-Mil, A-Mil, Pre-Trib, etc. It's not to discuss dispensationalism.

This thread is to discuss the rapture. Specifically, it was started to discuss the Holy Spirit's involvement after the rapture, but I'm going to expand it to include all discussions concerning the rapture and its effects.

Once again, this is not to debate the rapture. That is not the topic. The topic is to discuss what happens after.

The question that lead to the starting of this thread was:


My simple answer in that thread was, "I don't know".

I will be up front and honest. My study of the Bible is mostly Biblical history. I don't claim to be a scholar of prophecy, especially prophecies with future fulfillment.

With that being said, I am torn over whether or not the H.S. will be present after the rapture. To start, I think we need to understand that there will be conversions after the rapture. This means that there will definitely be a presence of the H.S. residing in the individual believers. However, on a larger scale, I'm uncertain of whether the H.S. will essentially leave the earth to its own devices, or will still be trying to work on people, though unsuccessfully.

As I discuss it, I keep leaning one way or the other. Other people's views and discussions are appreciated.

Following the resurrection of the dead and the White Throne Judgment all the redeemed will dwell in the New Heavens and New Earth with the Triune Godhead.

Those who belong to Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire with him.

 

[kyredneck]

I've neither watched the movie nor read the books, but what was the gist of the 'Left Behind' series? Are you in agreement with it?

I thought you knew; make money!

:thumbs: Dispensational Charlatans

...bookoo filthy lucre made from it. But hey, the majority of evangelicals today feed on the sensationalism of it all. It's an adrenaline rush fix that they love.

 

[Darrell C]

:thumbs: Dispensational Charlatans

...bookoo filthy lucre made from it. But hey, the majority of evangelicals today feed on the sensationalism of it all. It's an adrenaline rush fix that they love.

It's funny that you can declare dogmatically on something you publicly profess to be completely ignorant of.

It doesn't bother you to falsely charge people of things when you don't even know what they have written?

Reading left behind would do you some good. It is a good primer for those who are ignorant of Prophecy, and a good reason to shut off the TV and exercise a few gray cells as well.




God bless.

 

[revmwc]

:thumbs: Dispensational Charlatans

...bookoo filthy lucre made from it. But hey, the majority of evangelicals today feed on the sensationalism of it all. It's an adrenaline rush fix that they love.

Many authors write not for the money but to get the Truth as they see it out to others. I'm sure whomever the authors are you read wrote not for filthy lucre but to get the truth as they believe it out.

 

[kyredneck]

It's funny that you can declare dogmatically on something you publicly profess to be completely ignorant of....

I'm not at all ignorant of it, in fact I'm keenly aware of the dangers that have arose from this 'Doomsday Dementia' of Dispensationalism. I was a Hal Lindsay fan way back in the days of my own captivation with it. I grew up in a hyper dispy church and listened to many exciting sensational sermons brain washing God's people that these are the last days.

Dispensationalism is no longer a benign harmless eschatology, it has morphed into a very potent theo-political force referred to secularly as Christian Zionism.

 

[Darrell C]

I'm not at all ignorant of it,

Originally Posted by kyredneck View Post
I've neither watched the movie nor read the books, but what was the gist of the 'Left Behind' series? Are you in agreement with it?

Seems to be a conflict in your statements.

You charge filthy lucre as the motivation, and profess a malign movement to the Books, yet you have not read them or seen the movies.

You false charge out of ignorance.

And it is apparent you cannot debate the actual Theology, thus are forced to yourself engage in falsely maligning others.

in fact I'm keenly aware of the dangers that have arose from this 'Doomsday Dementia' of Dispensationalism. I was a Hal Lindsay fan way back in the days of my own captivation with it. I grew up in a hyper dispy church and listened to many exciting sensational sermons brain washing God's people that these are the last days.

I have never read the first thing by Hal Lindsay, so what does this have to do with your charge against LaHaye and Jenkins?

Maybe if you had combined what you heard preached with a diligence in seeing of those things were true in Bible Study, you might be less inclined to revile something you clearly don't understand.

Why not try engaging in serious discussion about the issues that are relevant to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Why is it necessary to always revile those of other belief?

No-one really cares what LaHaye, Jenkins, Darby, or Lindsay wrote, what we care about is what the Biblical writers wrote under inspiration.

Dispensationalism is no longer a benign harmless eschatology, it has morphed into a very potent theo-political force referred to secularly as Christian Zionism.

And what does any of this have to do with the Spirit's ministry in the Tribulation?

By the way, you might want to consider that broken records always damage the "needle," lol.


God bless.

 

[Sapper Woody]

I'm not at all ignorant of it, in fact I'm keenly aware of the dangers that have arose from this 'Doomsday Dementia' of Dispensationalism. I was a Hal Lindsay fan way back in the days of my own captivation with it. I grew up in a hyper dispy church and listened to many exciting sensational sermons brain washing God's people that these are the last days.

Dispensationalism is no longer a benign harmless eschatology, it has morphed into a very potent theo-political force referred to secularly as Christian Zionism.

All that really needs to be pointed out is that you grew up in a "Hyper Dispy" church, which is an extreme, not the norm. As for your last sentence, it is way off. Again, I am a dispensationalist. I grew up in dispensationalist churches. I have never attended a church that is not dispensationalist. I have never once heard some of the things that you and OR are talking about.

I do believe we are living in the last days. I believe the last days began with the closing of the canon, and will continue until the rapture, which could be tomorrow, a week, or several millennia from now.

However, none of this has anything to do with the topic, and is way off track. If you want to argue dispensationalism, please do so in another thread. This one is about the rapture, and the effects of it.

 

[DHK]

All that really needs to be pointed out is that you grew up in a "Hyper Dispy" church, which is an extreme, not the norm. As for your last sentence, it is way off. Again, I am a dispensationalist. I grew up in dispensationalist churches. I have never attended a church that is not dispensationalist. I have never once heard some of the things that you and OR are talking about.

I do believe we are living in the last days. I believe the last days began with the closing of the canon, and will continue until the rapture, which could be tomorrow, a week, or several millennia from now.

However, none of this has anything to do with the topic, and is way off track. If you want to argue dispensationalism, please do so in another thread. This one is about the rapture, and the effects of it.

I agree with you. I have never heard of some of the things they are pulling out of their hats, especially as they relate them to dispensationalism.

 

[kyredneck]

....I think we need to understand that there will be conversions after the rapture.....

Is this 'the rapture'?:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15

If it is, Paul has already made it clear, "then cometh the end":

23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

"Then cometh the end", no mention of a seven year tribulation or conversions or another 1000 years of human existence on earth. The kingdom has been already, Christ has reigned already.