The Hope in John Calvin

[Mr. Davis]

There is the confessing Church and the professing Church. The professing Church is made up of individuals that speak like Christians but have not been born again. A person can think they are saved but not be.The Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God. Romans 8
Unceasing prayer and full immersion in the Word will give a confessing Christian, who may doubt his salvation, an unshakable assurance.

 

[reformed_baptist]

I think the once saved always saved doctrine can be a dangerous thing for this generation. To repeat the above post...

"I have worked many years at a large factory making samples and as a lab technician. Most of the older Baptists I know who are now over 60 behave like Christians and it has been a delight to have known them. I can look into their character and find good things. I have no problems with them saying they are Christian."

To these I believe that they are indeed eternally secure. I find nothing in their character to suggest otherwise. And to repeat the above post...

"Most Baptist under 60 years old that I know don't mind mixed sexual relationships, drinking, and to go to the nightclubs. Which makes me think again that this is indeed the Laodicean church age and for us to beware of the perils of the times and the seasons."

To this bunch the OSAS doctrine is dangerous as it is obvious that Christ has not formed within the character.

If your equating OSAS with calvinism then, with all due respect, your don't understand what Calvinism is

 

[rockytopva]

If your equating OSAS with calvinism then, with all due respect, your don't understand what Calvinism is

The five points, as they are stated in order to form the acrostic TULIP, are: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance of the Saints - Or, OSAS.

I think this is damnable doctrine for those who think that they can sin, do whatever they want, and still be saved.

But... I know Baptist who I believe are securely saved. I see nothing in their character to suggest otherwise and would be shocked if they were to ever backslide back into the world. But, sadly to say, most of these saints are over 60.

 

[TCassidy]

The five points, as they are stated in order to form the acrostic TULIP, are: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance of the Saints - Or, OSAS.

I think this is damnable doctrine for those who think that they can sin, do whatever they want, and still be saved.

But... I know Baptist who I believe are securely saved. I see nothing in their character to suggest otherwise and would be shocked if they were to ever backslide back into the world. But, sadly to say, most of these saints are over 60.

Your reply proves that reformed_baptist was right. You don't understand.

 

[rockytopva]

Your reply proves that reformed_baptist was right. You don't understand.

"God does not play dice with the universe" - Albert Einstien
"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables..." - 2 Peter 1:16
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:24

For many their relationship with God is a game, in which they do whatever carnally things they please, and then go to church Sunday thinking they have done enough to still consider themselves saved.

 

[reformed_baptist]

The five points, as they are stated in order to form the acrostic TULIP, are: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

The acrostic TULIP is not a definition of Calvinism - rather it is the relatively modern summary of the much older response given to certain points of contention raised by the remonstrants - as such it is merely a partial definition!

Perseverance of the Saints -

Or, OSAS.

Oh no, perseverance of the saints is quite specific, the person saved will persevere to the end, by the grace of God, whereas OSAS is much wider ranging and often equates to, 'i'm saved so it doesn't matter how I life.' Which is what you seem to be talking about

I think this is damnable doctrine for those who think that they can sin, do whatever they want, and still be saved.

I quite agree, OSAS is very dangerous. Perseverance of the saints though is very different, it teaches that those who are saved by grace, will be kept by grace, therefore they will live out their salvation by grace. The person who carries on in sin is not persevering hence they can have no assurance of salvation according to Calvinistic teaching.

But... I know Baptist who I believe are securely saved. I see nothing in their character to suggest otherwise and would be shocked if they were to ever backslide back into the world. But, sadly to say, most of these saints are over 60.

That's great - but what is the relevance to the topic at hand?

 

[Darrell C]

So the question I would have is, "At what point can we declare someone eternally saved?"

The same way Scripture declares it: when they have turned to Christ in faith. When they are born again.

As far as our own view of whether someone is saved or not, we can see indication, or validation, of salvation by the fruit in their lives.

That is what you have done:

"I have worked many years at a large factory making samples and as a lab technician. Most of the older Baptists I know who are now over 60 behave like Christians and it has been a delight to have known them. I can look into their character and find good things. I have no problems with them saying they are Christian."

All believers are in a state of growth not much unlike physical growth, which is why John uses terms like children, young men, and fathers. It describes the level of maturity. So it makes sense older Christians have a more mature practice, because they have been going through the growth process longer.

Here is the absolute clearest statement of Eternal Security in Scripture:


Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Read the chapter a few times and lets discuss why it is the clearest statement of Eternal Security (also known as OSAS).


God bless.

 

[Mr. Davis]

"Perseverance of the Saints: they will persevere to the end by God's grace."
Do I have the definition right?

Sproul calls the fifth point the "Preservation of the Saints." How might this be
in agreement with the definition above?

 

[Yeshua1]

"Perseverance of the Saints: they will persevere to the end by God's grace."
Do I have the definition right?

Sproul calls the fifth point the "Preservation of the Saints." How might this be
in agreement with the definition above?

Those who are really the Elect, saved by God, will show that to be true by keeping the faith until they die!
Does NOT mean cannot sin, nor even sin badly, but that they will keep on walking wiith Jesus unto death!

 

[Bobbie]

So, believing God is dangerous? How? Eternal life is, well, eternal. If you had it on Sunday and lost it on Monday it was not eternal. We are saved by Grace (Eph 2:8) and we are kept by Grace (Jude 1).

That is not dangerous. That is Salvation!

True salvation is eternal. However, you are not truly saved by parroting a prayer. To be truly saved you must be a follower of Christ. A person should always ask "what would Jesus do?". You can say He might be present at places where sinning is acceptable BUT He would be there to witness to the sinners, not partake in their activities. The young lady may be truly saved, but definitely backslidden and therefore needs prayer. She also needs more education as to what being a Christian means. Practicing what she seems to be doing can lead to terrible consequences and that is not what happens when you lead a Christian life.

 

[TCassidy]

However, you are not truly saved by parroting a prayer.

I don't recall saying you were.

To be truly saved you must be a follower of Christ.

You have the cart before the horse. You are not saved by being a follower of Christ. You are a follower of Christ because you are truly saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

True salvation is eternal. However, you are not truly saved by parroting a prayer. To be truly saved you must be a follower of Christ. A person should always ask "what would Jesus do?". You can say He might be present at places where sinning is acceptable BUT He would be there to witness to the sinners, not partake in their activities. The young lady may be truly saved, but definitely backslidden and therefore needs prayer. She also needs more education as to what being a Christian means. Practicing what she seems to be doing can lead to terrible consequences and that is not what happens when you lead a Christian life.

ALL christians are far more than mere followers of Jesus, as God the father and the Holy Spirit themselves are into conforming them more into image of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't recall saying you were.

You have the cart before the horse. You are not saved by being a follower of Christ. You are a follower of Christ because you are truly saved.

Amen, as to be more like jesus means that one actually now has his Spirit living in us!

 

[Calv1]

I met a lady at work who I thought was right for me. She is a Baptist girl and thinks she is saved... But the more that girl talked.... Come to find out she does not see anything wrong with the partying life or to have sex with different partners.

One day I confronted her with this and said, "You know I do not believe you can do those things and go to heaven."

She looks at me and say, "Are you trying to threaten my salvation?"

I thought to myself that she had been indoctrinated with the Calvin guy just enough that it is dangerous to her soul.

That wins the prize! Serious of all the posts I've read this one is most ignorant of Reformed teachings, ever hear of the PURITANS. What does the right teaching of Reformed Theology have to do with some professing Christian girl, nevermind forget I asked, don't want to know

 

[Calv1]

So, believing God is dangerous? How? Eternal life is, well, eternal. If you had it on Sunday and lost it on Monday it was not eternal. We are saved by Grace (Eph 2:8) and we are kept by Grace (Jude 1).

That is not dangerous. That is Salvation!

That's just amazing how people think that way, to import into scripture "Well I think GODS TEACHING ON SALVATION may be dangerous in this day and time", REMARKABLE, sad the state of the Church these days, it also makes me question THEIR salvation, why? Because if they haven't experienced a changed heart, a heart that no longer desires sin but desires God, they haven't been born again, so they say silly things like "That truth may be dangerous for some"

The SINGLE MOST AMAZING EVENT IN HISTORY, UNKNOWN TO CHRISTIANS, God put our sins upon Christ, and Christ took our punishment, hence "No more condemnation....", second Christ lived a righteous life for us, fulfilled the law for us so that we are no longer judged by it, and His perfect life via the Spirit is imputed to us, if we know this not we'll say things like that.

That's the problem with Arminianism, they don't believe Christ died for ANYONE, just that He atoned God and made salvation POSSIBLE BASED ON THE FREE WILL OF MAN, could have been NNE CAME, but no scripture tells us we have a POWERFUL SAVIOR, that the Father gives us to the Son, and the Son keeps us forever, if good works were part of the deal we'd ALL BE LOST, that is if we really know our heart.

Have to get off this forum, its just too sad, I see some good theologians on here, but most are illiterate.

 

[TCassidy]

Have to get off this forum, its just too sad, I see some good theologians on here, but most are illiterate.

That's why I stay. To teach sound doctrine.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

 

[JonC]

I think the once saved always saved doctrine can be a dangerous thing for this generation.

I agree. The “once saved always saved” doctrine can be a dangerous thing. So can the doctrine of justification by faith and the doctrine of sanctification. I suggest, however, that the danger is not in the doctrines themselves but in doctrine poorly defined, poorly understood, and poorly taught.

The doctrine of OSAS has run the gamut here, but never has the true doctrine of “eternal security” been challenged. The doctrine of justification, likewise, has been challenged but never as the doctrine is held by those who hold it as true.

In fact, I suppose just about any false doctrine begins with a hint of truth. We need to be careful not to shy away from truth because we are concerned about its misuse. For example, Mormons teach one version of Jesus and many seem to erroneously believe we hold similar views at a core level. That does not mean we turn away from teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ in fear some will turn towards Mormonism. Perhaps the best defense is to preach and teach the truth as clearly as possible, thereby eliminating any possibility of associating doctrines like OSAS and justification by faith with ungodly behavior.

 

[Calv1]

That's why I stay. To teach sound doctrine.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

You're a cool guy! Thanks for that

 

[Calv1]

Calvin would not condone that ungodly behavior, IMO.

He didn't! There were groups in nearby towns, I'm tired can't remember the names of these groups, but they sinned purposely daily, they said "hey we are saved, let's get drunk, do what we want" (Undoubtedly not saved), but Calvin DESPISED THESE PEOPLE, people Calvin is in essence the founder of he Puritans! Trust me he preached HOLY LIVING.

 

[Calv1]

The five points, as they are stated in order to form the acrostic TULIP, are: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance of the Saints - Or, OSAS.

I think this is damnable doctrine for those who think that they can sin, do whatever they want, and still be saved.

But... I know Baptist who I believe are securely saved. I see nothing in their character to suggest otherwise and would be shocked if they were to ever backslide back into the world. But, sadly to say, most of these saints are over 60.

Oh my goodness, what things people think and say! You just said that God Almighty's stated Soteriology, clear as can be, and call it "Damnable"? I'm sorry is this man Damnable for saying that about God?

Is this clear enough, Hebrews 10:14 For by a single offering HE HAS PERFECTED ONCE FOR ALL those being sanctified, CLEAR ENOUGH? Or do you not believe it?

I'd love to hear this guys explanation of TULIP, do you know what verses we use to defend against the heretics of old?