The Hope in John Calvin

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as congregations that came about in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul (according to foxes there were ten Roman persecutions)
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

To the Sardisean bunch the Lord says...

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. - Revelation 3:1

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

If the Lord Jesus were to chime into the teachings of Calvin he would say, "He that overcomes will be eternally saved, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

The Book of life belongs to God, he will add and edit as he sees fit...

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. - Exodus 32

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as congregations that came about in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul (according to foxes there were ten Roman persecutions)
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

To the Sardisean bunch the Lord says...

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. - Revelation 3:1

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

If the Lord Jesus were to chime into the teachings of Calvin he would say, "He that overcomes will be eternally saved, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

The Book of life belongs to God, he will add and edit as he sees fit...

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. - Exodus 32

In reference to the seven churches I find in my lifetime the influence of four....

1. Thyatira - My dads side of the family is Catholic
2. Sardis - I was brought up Baptist
3. Philadelphia - I found a wonderful touch in the Spirit in these type revivals
4. Laodicea - I have Word of Faith / Charismatic type friends

In my experience the Sardisean bunch is more steadfast. The Lord told the Philadelphians...

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out..." - Revelation 3:12a

Which is the agonizing thing in the Wesleyan type revivals, they do not last long before the people regress back into natural things. So I am not promoting any other church above the Sardisean church.

 

[MennoSota]

That's just amazing how people think that way, to import into scripture "Well I think GODS TEACHING ON SALVATION may be dangerous in this day and time", REMARKABLE, sad the state of the Church these days, it also makes me question THEIR salvation, why? Because if they haven't experienced a changed heart, a heart that no longer desires sin but desires God, they haven't been born again, so they say silly things like "That truth may be dangerous for some"

The SINGLE MOST AMAZING EVENT IN HISTORY, UNKNOWN TO CHRISTIANS, God put our sins upon Christ, and Christ took our punishment, hence "No more condemnation....", second Christ lived a righteous life for us, fulfilled the law for us so that we are no longer judged by it, and His perfect life via the Spirit is imputed to us, if we know this not we'll say things like that.

That's the problem with Arminianism, they don't believe Christ died for ANYONE, just that He atoned God and made salvation POSSIBLE BASED ON THE FREE WILL OF MAN, could have been NNE CAME, but no scripture tells us we have a POWERFUL SAVIOR, that the Father gives us to the Son, and the Son keeps us forever, if good works were part of the deal we'd ALL BE LOST, that is if we really know our heart.

Have to get off this forum, its just too sad, I see some good theologians on here, but most are illiterate.

I don't believe it is God's will that we use all CAPS. [emoji41] [emoji56] [emoji109]

 

[MennoSota]

I believe in the seven churches as congregations that came about in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul (according to foxes there were ten Roman persecutions)
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

To the Sardisean bunch the Lord says...

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. - Revelation 3:1

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

If the Lord Jesus were to chime into the teachings of Calvin he would say, "He that overcomes will be eternally saved, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

The Book of life belongs to God, he will add and edit as he sees fit...

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. - Exodus 32

This is a different subject.
For the record, the churches in Revelation were all real churches that John knew about. The ages myth is a rather new interpretation started in the US. It has no good basis for being accepted as a legitimate interpretation.

 

[rockytopva]

This is a different subject.
For the record, the churches in Revelation were all real churches that John knew about. The ages myth is a rather new interpretation started in the US. It has no good basis for being accepted as a legitimate interpretation.

This is a lukewarm age. I doubt if most Christians know who John Calvin was, much less what he taught. In Sardisean times doctrine carried a lot more weight. I work at a large factory and most of the Christians I know are lukewarm as far as doctrine is concerned. Most churches do not have revivals anymore either, indicating that these are not Philadelphian times either.

 

[MennoSota]

This is a lukewarm age. I doubt if most Christians know who John Calvin was, much less what he taught. In Sardisean times doctrine carried a lot more weight. I work at a large factory and most of the Christians I know are lukewarm as far as doctrine is concerned. Most churches do not have revivals anymore either, indicating that these are not Philadelphian times either.

Tell that to Christians all around the globe who are being martyred and persecuted for their faith today. This past century has seen the largest persecution of the church since its inception. This is no Laodicean "age" as you claim.

Do you imagine that the Bible was only written for 21st Century Americans?

 

[rockytopva]

Tell that to Christians all around the globe who are being martyred and persecuted for their faith today. This past century has seen the largest persecution of the church since its inception. This is no Laodicean "age" as you claim.

Do you imagine that the Bible was only written for 21st Century Americans?

Ephesus - Messianic - Still active
Smyrna - Martyr - As you have said, still active, and persecuted.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Still active
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - Stil active - Thankfully not as controlling and dominating as in times past
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- Still active
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - Hard to find good revivals these days!
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - The Word of Faith is the most popular thing going.

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesus - Messianic - Still active
Smyrna - Martyr - As you have said, still active, and persecuted.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Still active
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - Stil active - Thankfully not as controlling and dominating as in times past
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- Still active
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - Hard to find good revivals these days!
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - The Word of Faith is the most popular thing going.

No matter how much you regurgitate a bad system of eschatology, it doesn't become a good system of eschatology.

I know you have your feet planted in the age theory, but you need to ask how such an interpretation came about. If you research it you will see that what you believe is not what most Christians throughout history believed about the churches in Revelation. Could it possibly be that your view is wrong?

 

[rockytopva]

No matter how much you regurgitate a bad system of eschatology, it doesn't become a good system of eschatology.

I know you have your feet planted in the age theory, but you need to ask how such an interpretation came about. If you research it you will see that what you believe is not what most Christians throughout history believed about the churches in Revelation. Could it possibly be that your view is wrong?

Historians trace the earliest Baptist church back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth as its pastor. This church came alive in Sardisean age times. There were churches totally different in character before this church was established.

 

[MennoSota]

Historians trace the earliest Baptist church back to 1609 in Amsterdam, with John Smyth as its pastor. This church came alive in Sardisean age times. There were churches totally different in character before this church was established.

The earliest Baptist Church did not hold to your "age" theory, rocky.

 

[rockytopva]

The earliest Baptist Church did not hold to your "age" theory, rocky.

All I can do is make a case for it. I was brought up Baptist and then Spirit-Filled in a Pentecostal Holiness revival. Both movements taught an imminent rapture of the church. At 17 years old I actually thought that we would be in revival until we were caught up in the air to be with Jesus.

It became obvious as time progressed that was not the case. As a matter of fact, with all the TV preachers basically embarrassing Christianity, I was really hard put to know how to handle the times and the seasons. I have come to believe that the churches are seven. And what I had experienced was the Philadelphian revival which was now a thing past. I wondered and was depressed about this until I heard two woman talking that they heard that in the last days the people were going to have to, 'cut their own paths.' Isaac Newton predicted the end in 2060 AD...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.”" - – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –- Isaac Newton

I would think we have a few decades left in this Laodicean age.

 

[MennoSota]

All I can do is make a case for it. I was brought up Baptist and then Spirit-Filled in a Pentecostal Holiness revival. Both movements taught an imminent rapture of the church. At 17 years old I actually thought that we would be in revival until we were caught up in the air to be with Jesus.

It became obvious as time progressed that was not the case. As a matter of fact, with all the TV preachers basically embarrassing Christianity, I was really hard put to know how to handle the times and the seasons. I have come to believe that the churches are seven. And what I had experienced was the Philadelphian revival which was now a thing past. I wondered and was depressed about this until I heard two woman talking that they heard that in the last days the people were going to have to, 'cut their own paths.' Isaac Newton predicted the end in 2060 AD...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.”" - – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –- Isaac Newton

I would think we have a few decades left in this Laodicean age.

Rocky, there is no Laodicean age. There is only local churches that may resemble the behavior of the church at Laodicea as Jesus described it.

 

[rockytopva]

Rocky, there is no Laodicean age. There is only local churches that may resemble the behavior of the church at Laodicea as Jesus described it.

Maybe there are places in Yankeeland where all the churches are the same...

1. Cut and dry
2. Cold
3. Unfriendly
4. Un-loving

And as the bible says,

Clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; - Jude 1:12

In which, to them all churches are the same. There should be more about us that makes us superior other than the doctrine in which we believe, And that is the fruits of the Holy Spirit illuminating through us.

 

[Yeshua1]

Rocky, there is no Laodicean age. There is only local churches that may resemble the behavior of the church at Laodicea as Jesus described it.

That describes many churches though today, eh?

 

[MennoSota]

That describes many churches though today, eh?

I'm not sure that it does. When we view the church on a global scale, and attempt to compare them to the 7 churches in Revelation, we recognize every church somewhere.
I can't imagine calling a church in Saudi Arabia a "Laodicean" church.

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not sure that it does. When we view the church on a global scale, and attempt to compare them to the 7 churches in Revelation, we recognize every church somewhere.
I can't imagine calling a church in Saudi Arabia a "Laodicean" church.

Maybe ones who are being killed off for the faith?

 

[rockytopva]

I'm not sure that it does. When we view the church on a global scale, and attempt to compare them to the 7 churches in Revelation, we recognize every church somewhere.
I can't imagine calling a church in Saudi Arabia a "Laodicean" church.

The church in Saudi Arabia... Well then.... What is the doctrine?

Messianic? Then this is an Ephesean congregation
Coptic? Then this is a Smyrnaen church congregation
Orthodox? Then this is a Pergamean church congregation
Catholic? Then this is a Thyatirean church congregation
Protestant? Then this is a Sardisean church congregation
Methodist? Then this is a Philadelphian congregation
Word of Faith? then this is a Laodicean congregation

And then there are some that are a mixture of each congregation. I would hardly expect to see a Word of Faith church in Saudi Arabia, but who knows?

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. - Daniel 12:13

We will all stand before God in our congregation in that last day.

 

[rockytopva]

I do believe that the Laodicean church age was birthed right here in America, beginning with DL Moody, the first to bring in excessive cash from his ministry. The word of God to we Americans would be then...

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. - Revelation 3

As many as I love I rebuke and chasten...

 

[MennoSota]

The church in Saudi Arabia... Well then.... What is the doctrine?

Messianic? Then this is an Ephesean congregation
Coptic? Then this is a Smyrnaen church congregation
Orthodox? Then this is a Pergamean church congregation
Catholic? Then this is a Thyatirean church congregation
Protestant? Then this is a Sardisean church congregation
Methodist? Then this is a Philadelphian congregation
Word of Faith? then this is a Laodicean congregation

And then there are some that are a mixture of each congregation. I would hardly expect to see a Word of Faith church in Saudi Arabia, but who knows?

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. - Daniel 12:13

We will all stand before God in our congregation in that last day.

What weird school of prophecy are you in? There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING in Revelation that gives you any reason to create such a convoluted interpretation of the churches. Rocky, you gotta be smoking some wildwood weed to get to where you are with the churches in Revelation. It certainly isn't found in the Bible.

 

[rockytopva]

What weird school of prophecy are you in? There is nothing, I repeat, NOTHING in Revelation that gives you any reason to create such a convoluted interpretation of the churches. Rocky, you gotta be smoking some wildwood weed to get to where you are with the churches in Revelation. It certainly isn't found in the Bible.

Believe it or not there were churches before the Baptist church came along... Hard to believe I know... But there really were!