The hopelessness of Calvinism

[Christopher]

(John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

(Ephesians 3:7) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

 

[swaimj]

Christopher, you posted this verse and asked me to respond to it:

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [II Timothy 2:24, 25)

In the context, those of whom Paul speaks who are in need of repentence are people who are saved but have fallen into false doctrine, so this does not relate to people repenting of sin unto salvation. On the other hand there is little difference in the process. Those in error must be instructed in the word and they must become obedient to it. In the same way, an unsaved person needs to hear the word and respond in faith.

Pastor Larry said:

Who said this and where was it said?If anyone says that, I will join you in correcting them. I preach the gospel to all and command all to repent.

Check Helen's opening quotes of connieman in the first post. He was speaking to unsaved people in a speculative way and informing them that they may not be elect & thus may not be able to be saved. This is not a proper way to give the gospel to unsaved people and there is no biblical precedent for it.

And Pastor Larry said:

You still, in all of your musings here, have no answer as to how a man gets from total depravity to saving faith. And so long as your hold your system, you never will have an answer to this because there is not one.

I have not mused at all in this thread on the question of how one gets from total depravity to saving faith as that is not the topic. The answer is not complicated, however. One goes from total depravity to saving faith by hearing the gospel and believing it. The gospel is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes" and the faith to believe "comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

 

[tyndale1946]

Swaimj said:

The gospel is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes" and the faith to believe "comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

I have a 21 year old Deaf son... and he can't hear the gospel. I know a lot like him and they to can't hear the gospel... Are you telling me that they have no faith because they can't hear the gospel? I know other people grown adults who can't understand it even though they hear it because their mental capacity is that of a child.
Are you telling me that these also have no faith or are their special circumstances for these people ordained by God? If hearing the gospel and believing is mandatory for eternal life then these handicapped people are left out. Before you speak you better know whereof you speak because the only Faith that is of any validation is the Faith of the Son of God... Explain to me how these are saved if you believe what you said?... Brother Glen

 

[Christopher]

Thank-you brother Glenn.

 

[Christopher]

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16)

Scripture does not contradict itself. Therefore, if it says a man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ it must be true. Justified simply means to be declared righteous.

"...even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,..."

It is not until a man brings forth the necessary fruits of repentance that he can be declared righteous. It is because a man believes that he can be declared righteous, that is, by men. Otherwise, there is no evidence of eternal life. A man believes in Jesus Christ so that he might be declared righteous.

 

[swaimj]

Tyndale,
Paul also says in Romans 10 that "everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved." Does that mean if a person has no voice they cannot be saved? No. Calling on the name of the Lord is a metaphor for acknowledging who Jesus is and accepting HIm as Saviour and Lord. Hearing is a metaphor for having the message of salvation delivered to you. It could be delivered by written word or by spoken word. The point is that a person has to have the message delivered to them. They cannot beleive a message which they never encounter. Since most people can hear and speak, we do not question the metaphors. If a person is disabled in a physical ability, they can still receive the message of salvation and receive Christ.

 

[Christopher]

JUSTIFICATION BY THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST - I

Because that righteousness by which we are justified before God is not our own. All true believers, as the great Apostle did, esteem "their own righteousness and works but loss and dung, for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus their Lord; and desire to be found in him, not having their own righteousness which is of the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil. 3:9). It is manifest, that the Apostle excluded everything from the business of his Justification which might be accounted his own; and, consequently, faith itself, which though it is a fruit of special grace, may properly be reckoned our own, as we are the subjects of it. Hence it is that the Holy Ghost speaks of faith as ours: "But the just shall live by his faith" (Hab. 2:4). All dependence on faith for Justification is laid aside by the saints, who are sensible that many deficiencies attend it, and that nothing which is imperfect can recommend them to God.
(2) A perfect righteousness is required, in order to our Justification in God's sight. His law insists upon a complete obedience to all its precepts, and condemns where it is wanting; for the language of it is, "Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law, to do them" (Gal. 3:10). Nor will God, in any instance, act contrary to His own law, which cannot be made void; for it is the eternal standard and rule of righteousness, according to which he will always proceed in judgment. Faith is not a righteousness free from imperfection, and therefore it is not such as is demanded by the Law; wherefore we cannot be justified by it. --John Brine

 

[connieman]

And then there are the millions who have ears, but they do not hear, and eyes, but they do not see. What is to become of these?

By the grace of God, "The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them."

God saves whomsoever He will, be they deaf, blind, or dumb. Praise be to God! "Calvinism", or the true Gospel, gives hope that even those who don't believe they need saving, or don't want to be saved, may still be saved BY THE FREE GRACE OF GOD. That which is impossible to men, is always possible with God.

connieman

[ May 10, 2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Christopher]

The passages produced to establish this notion, that faith is a man’s righteousness, are insufficient; "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). And again (Rom. 4:5), "His faith is counted for righteousness". And in (Rom. 4:9), "We say, that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness". Now this can not be understood of the act of Abraham’s faith; but of the object of it, or that which he believed in, the righteousness of Christ, which God imputes, without works (Rom. 4:6), and that this must be the sense is clear, from this one single consideration, that the same "it" which was imputed to Abraham for righteousness, is imputed to all those who believe in God, who raised up Christ from the dead (Rom. 4:22-24). Now supposing Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for a justifying righteousness; it cannot reasonably be thought that it should be imputed also for righteousness to all that believe in all succeeding ages. --Providence Baptist Ministries

 

[Chris Temple]

Eric said:

The bolded statement is not necessarily so. It's not a sealed destiny of individuals that is being emphasized, but rather the category of those who disobey the word. Else, if all God wanted to do was appoint people to condemnation, He wouldn't have had to give the word (and expect people to obey it) in the first place.

As Helen is mired in John 3:16 theology, so are you and your presupposition of "corporation" theology. The verse clearly speaks to individuals, even if they are of a group (all of us are.) The fact remains that if people are destined by God to a mentioned future, that destiny cannot be changed by any action of the receiver of the proclamation. This is not an "if, then" admonishment. It says they were destined . No action then on their part could change it.

Why does everyone want the pottery to be free, but not the Potter?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Pastor Larry said: Who said this and where was it said?If anyone says that, I will join you in correcting them. I preach the gospel to all and command all to repent. Swaimj: Check Helen's opening quotes of connieman in the first post. He was speaking to unsaved people in a speculative way and informing them that they may not be elect & thus may not be able to be saved. This is not a proper way to give the gospel to unsaved people and there is no biblical precedent for it.

I went back to read it and can’t find anything unbiblical in what he said. It is true that they might not be elect. It is true that they cannot believe of themselves. But perhaps you missed the first line: you SHOULD believe in God in Christ, because if you do not, your sins are going to sink you into everlasting death, hell, and punishment in the Day of Judgement.It is clear that conniman was giving the biblical message by calling on this person to repent and believe.

I have not mused at all in this thread on the question of how one gets from total depravity to saving faith as that is not the topic. The answer is not complicated, however. One goes from total depravity to saving faith by hearing the gospel and believing it. The gospel is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes" and the faith to believe "comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

But Scripture tells us that the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God. How can he repent and believe after hearing the gospel when he doesn’t understand the gospel. I agree its not complicated. I just don’t see how you can maintain your position in light of the biblical evidence about the nature of man.
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After 8 pages, :I am going to shut this down. Please feel free to start another thread on a particular issue if you like. I am not trying to have the last word here; just shutting down an 8 page thread.