The hopelessness of Calvinism

[connieman]

Christopher...yes, God commanded, and Israel failed to obey for centuries, even to the present day, all of which teaches the absolute necessity of Grace as the ground and Power of salvation, and the sacrifice of Christ as the ground of reconciliation to God.

connieman

 

[swaimj]

Christopher, you are right that the Jews were commanded to keep the law, but could not. However, the law also provided a covering for sin in the sacrificial system for their failures. Your theology gives man a command & no provision at all to keep it. That's what you call grace? Hmmm.

 

[swaimj]

Oh, and Siegfried, thanks. I do think there is a basis for calvinists and modified calvinists to work together in many situations.

 

[Christopher]

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [II Timothy 2:24, 25)

Hmmm...

 

[Aki]

When a man chooses against God, it is because God sovereignly chose not to overempower man's volition, though He has the power to.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Christopher,
God still commands tha Jew of this age to obey yet the scriptures imply they have been blinded and deafened. Did Israel have an option to be saved, based on this mandate?

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

1) Did God blind all of Israel, except for a remnant percentage?
2) During early biblical times, was salvation implied in the scriptures outside of Gods chosen people Israel, i.e what about Egypt?
3) What about Ham's lineage? Was it not forever cursed?
4) Why was it that even though Esau sought to repent, he could not?

Just a few thoughts?
Scott

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by swaimj:
I think most calvinists recognize the tension between God providing salvation only for some and yet commanding us to preach to gospel to all. Most calvinists simply swallow the tension and are obedient to the command to preach to gospel to all. For that I am thankful. What bothers me, in this thread, is that some calvinists, rather than live with the tension, disobey the commands to preach to all and to love all and to command all to repent. Instead, they take their theology of Christ dying only for the elect and preach the gospel with an assumption that people cannot be saved. The opening post in this thread contains an illustration of such a misguided presentation. Preaching that way violates the pattern of preaching to the unsaved that the apostles practiced in the book of Acts. Indeed, there is no precedent for preaching in that way to an unsaved person in the NT.

Disagree on the extent of the atonement if you must, but all of us must follow the NT pattern and go to all, preach to gospel to all, love all, and command all to believe and repent, as the apostles did.

swaimj:

Good post and well said.

Of course, there is not only a danger in hypercalvinism. there is a danger in the other side, all too often seen, of a false gospel, most often seen in "the four spiritual laws" that God loves all men unconditionally, has a wonderful plan for everyone's life, and just wants you to acknowledge that fact and you are saved. By emotional pleading and antinomian gospel messages, we have droves of Baptists who "made a decision for Christ" who have never, ever shown the fruits of that decision. Our churches our full of unregenerate members. The power of the Holy Spirit is left out of much gospel preaching and conversion theology.

For an excellent article on this by (non-Calvinist) A.W. Tozer, see In Word, Or In Power

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Helen:
Funny, that's not what the angel said.[/QB]

But it is the message of Scripture.

1 Peter 2:6-9 (ESV)
For it stands in Scripture:
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
[7] So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"

[8] and
"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. [9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by swaimj:
Oh, and Siegfried, thanks. I do think there is a basis for calvinists and modified calvinists to work together in many situations.

So then the folly of the useless, accusatory title of this thread has shown itself, eh?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Aki:
When a man chooses against God, it is because God sovereignly chose not to overempower man's volition, though He has the power to.

Aki:
All men are born sinners, and doomed to eternal punishment. In the Bible, there is only one man God gave the choice to with regards to eternal life and fellowship with his maker, and that man was Adam.
You and I know he failed miserably, choosing to believe a lie and the father of lies in the person of the serpent. As a result he was driven from God's presence and all his posterity after him are separated from God and a slave to Satan.
However, God in His mercy, chose to save some from that condemnation and to secure and seal their salvation with the blood of His only begotten Son.
Man being totally corrupt and depraved and unable to come to God on his own, God, in addition, provides the gift of faith. The entire process is laid out in Romans 8:28-34.
All the commands to "choose ye this day" and so on given to the Jews were commandments of blessing and curse in this time-life yet they were born Jews, or of physical Israel, and in that birth they had no choice at all. What I am saying is one born a Jew has no choice but to be part of God's chosen nation.
On the spiritual plane, one born elect has no say at all in his birth. God chose him as one of His own from the foundation of the world entirely based on His sovereign mercy. His place of birth, nationality, creed, skin color, or whether he hears the gospel or not has no bearing on his eternal destiny.
However, his blessings and curses on this time plane depends on his obedience to the commands and will of his God and Savior. A man rejects God because that is his nature - God rejecting- which is what Adam became when he rejected the instructions God gave him and chose to follow the lie.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by swaimj:
What bothers me, in this thread, is that some calvinists, rather than live with the tension, disobey the commands to preach to all and to love all and to command all to repent.

Who said this and where was it said?If anyone says that, I will join you in correcting them. I preach the gospel to all and command all to repent.

However, why do we preach to all people? Because the election of God is a secret decree.

You still, in all of your musings here, have no answer as to how a man gets from total depravity to saving faith. And so long as your hold your system, you never will have an answer to this because there is not one.

[ May 09, 2002, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[swaimj]

Christ Temple said:

Of course, there is not only a danger in hypercalvinism. there is a danger in the other side, all too often seen, of a false gospel...

And I readily & wholeheartedly condemn such.
and

So then the folly of the useless, accusatory title of this thread has shown itself, eh?

I wouldn't call it useless. It motivated some calvinists like you to actually admit that calvinism can be taken too far. That's a helpful admission on you part. Thank you.

And Christopher said:

Hmmm...

You have a lovely singing voice, Christopher.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Chris Temple:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
Funny, that's not what the angel said.

But it is the message of Scripture.

1 Peter 2:6-9 (ESV)
For it stands in Scripture:
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
[7] So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"

[8] and
"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. [9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Keep it in context, Chris. They were destined to stumble because they disobey the word. This is in full agreement with the earlier part of your quote regarding the builders rejecting the cornerstone, Christ. Those who reject are destined to disobey and stumble. Please quit taking material out of context to try to prove Calvinism.

In the meantime, when the angel announced the birth to the shepherds, the announcement was specifically made in reference to "all the people."

You essentially flipped off a post I spent three hours on making sure my research and other material was correct in the Baptist general discussion forum. You have ignored the many passages I and others have quoted and referred to which puts a real kink in the Calvinist approach to Scripture. In concert with a number of others here, you have accused those who do not agree with you of denying the sovereignty of God, which is highly untrue. And consistently you, again in concert with others, have torn quotes, like the above, out of context in order to try to prove your point.

The Bible comes as a whole, Chris. Who is the real God -- the God of the Bible who so loved the WORLD that He gave His only Son, not willing that ONE should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance; the God who said "Come to me, ALL ye that labor", who mourned that Jerusalem refused Him, who cried at the effects of sin at the tomb of Lazarus, who prayed to the Father "not my will, but thine be done," whose invited guests (His own people, the Jews) for the most part refused Him, and yet who knew all of this would happen and had also made provision for it because His sovereignty was big enough for all that...

or...

the God of Calvinism who is arbitrary, unloving, unjust, unmerciful, and contradicts Himself in His Word.



ALL the Bible has to fit together. You cannot pick and choose the verses you want to support your chosen doctrine.

YES God is sovereign; and yes He has also given us the opportunity to choose for Him or against Him.

YES God always knew who would end up where; and yes He also did not create hell for people, but for demons -- it was never His wish/will that humans would go there; but yes, He also knew that this would be the final destination of any unbelieving people.

Yes, God loves all people and yes He has a plan for every life He creates. No one is an accident or not needed in His economy. However it is also true that He has allowed every person to reject Him or accept Him, and, in the long run, does not NEED one of us to accomplish His purposes.

"God is love." This remains. Beyond all else, this remains. In His majesty, His sovereignty, His awesome power and knowledge, God is still love.

Over and over again, Jesus urged people to seek Him, to seek His Kingdom and His righteousness. They don't have to look in the right place; they just have to look. It is the Father who will then guide them to Jesus, just as Jesus promised. Of course only those the Father brings to Jesus can get to Jesus. But the Father will not guide anyone there who does not care about seeking in the first place. A car has to be moving, even in the wrong direction, in order to be steered.

And so, over and over and over again we see Jesus almost pleading, "Ask, seek, knock, come to Me, open the door, follow Me" from the beginning of His ministry right up to the last church in Revelation. These words mean nothing at all if Calvinistic predestination is true. And there is no way the Savior's words ever mean 'nothing.'

If you take a good look at the predestination verses, I think you will find that they refer to the fate of those who have chosen one way or another.

For instance -- are you still reading or are you just mad??? -- I see Calvinists constantly refer to Romans 8:29-30. But that is not where that passage begins, is it? It begins in verse 28, and the first quality mentioned is 'those who love Him.' Those are the people predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ. Can they love Him on their own? No, they can't. That has to be enabled by God Himself. That is something I know we all agree about. But the point of vast divergence is that you somehow seem to think that love can be programmed into a person as a matter of predestination and I strongly disagree with that. The entire concept of love is commitment and care. If this is not a choice, regardless of one's capacity to fulfill it, then it is nothing more than programmed response. And that, definitely, is not something 'in the image of God.' He is not a programmed being. He is volitional. And we, created each of us in His image as spritual beings, are also.

That doesn't deny His majesty or power or sovereignty; it exalts it.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by swaimj:
I wouldn't call it useless. It motivated some calvinists like you to actually admit that calvinism can be taken too far. That's a helpful admission on you part. Thank you.

I have admitted that long before this post was created. Any truth can be twisted and taken to logical extremes.

Christ Temple

Thanks for the compliment.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Helen:
Keep it in context, Chris.

I always do. And that context, all of Scripture, resounds overwhelmingly in support of the absolute sovereignty of God over all things which occur. You have posted not one iota of Scriptural evidence to refute Calvinism. Not one. Your theology is based on an a priori assumption of the universal, unconditional love of God, which is an error, and upon a single-verse theology, John 3:16, which is wrongly interpreted to boot.

And your claim that "They were destined to stumble because they disobey the word" is exegetically and logically faulty. That they disobeyed the word is true, but that they were destined to do so is clear from the text. (this is presented as antithesis of the "chosen race" of the next verse). And if, as you claim, they were only destined to condemnation after they disobeyed, you are still left with the unsolvable problem of Arminianism: set fate. For if after they disbelieved they were destined to condemnation, then they could never, ever again turn to Christ in a "personal decision" after their earlier rejection of the word, for their destiny was sealed. How so? God sealed it. Arminianism is a failed attempt at avoiding the free choices of God.

Acts 13:48 (ESV)
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Chet]

Pastor Larry said

You still, in all of your musings here, have no answer as to how a man gets from total depravity to saving faith. And so long as your hold your system, you never will have an answer to this because there is not one.

Talk about not having an answer for things. Calvinist are selective in what they want to answer. Anyway… what is frustrating is the fact that you are building a case for total depravity by using passages that do clearly teach in man’s depravity. Then you are trying to teach inability to respond positively , from those passages. It is simply not there. Then you ask us to answer it? Here is the answer… no where are we said to be unable to believe in the gospel. Unless you try to make believing a work you have no ground for this supposed inability.

Secondly, the Bible is clear that we are drawn by the Father. He first loved us. He initiated the relationship.

[ May 09, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

[Chris Temple]

For instance -- are you still reading or are you just mad??? -- I see Calvinists constantly refer to Romans 8:29-30. But that is not where that passage begins, is it? It begins in verse 28, and the first quality mentioned is 'those who love Him.' Those are the people predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ. Can they love Him on their own? No, they can't. That has to be enabled by God Himself. That is something I know we all agree about. But the point of vast divergence is that you somehow seem to think that love can be programmed into a person as a matter of predestination and I strongly disagree with that.

Isaiah 65:1-5 (ESV)
I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me;
I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said, "Here am I, here am I,"
to a nation that was not called by my name.
[2] I spread out my hands all the day
to a rebellious people,
who walk in a way that is not good,
following their own devices;
[3] a people who provoke me
to my face continually,
sacrificing in gardens
and making offerings on bricks;
[4] who sit in tombs,
and spend the night in secret places;
who eat pig's flesh,
and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;
[5] who say, "Keep to yourself,
do not come near me, for I am too holy for you."
These are a smoke in my nostrils,
a fire that burns all the day.

1 John 4:19 (ESV)
We love because he first loved us.

To be predestined because we have acted toward God in love is violence upon the meaning of predestined. It makes no sense, and is unscriptural. You admit that no one can love God unless "[they are] enabled by God Himself. That is something I know we all agree about", but we don't really agree about it cause you don't believe it. How can you on one hand say we are first enabled by God to love him, but then say "you somehow seem to think that love can be programmed into a person as a matter of predestination and I strongly disagree with that"? You neither understand predestination, calling, irresitible grace, nor unconditional election. You again, create a strawman argument, for no Calvinist believes God "programs love into a person". Firstly, if he did, I say "so what"! I wish I was programmed to love God perfectly. But he has not chosen to do so. Instead, he regnerates us, gives us a new heart so that we can "feely choose him" as we now see his irresistible love and grace.

I can't believe you worked for R.C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and never understood biblical Calvinism.

 

[Chet]

Chris Temple said

I can't believe you worked for R.C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and never understood biblical Calvinism

Helen Hmmm. There it is again. That accusation. That you simply can’t seem to understand this supposed complicated, difficult, hard teaching, of the massive Theological system of Calvinism. Wait a minute… maybe there is no biblical Calvinism.

I

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chet:
Talk about not having an answer for things. Calvinist are selective in what they want to answer.

I will answer anything you want provided time permits. I will shy away from nothing.

Anyway… what is frustrating is the fact that you are building a case for total depravity by using passages that do clearly teach in man’s depravity. Then you are trying to teach inability to respond positively , from those passages.

So you believe in total depravity or do you not? Do you believe that some part of man was exempted from the effects of sin? The fact is that total depravity means that all of man including his will was affected. That is why Paul says that unsaved man is "unable" to please God, he "cannot" do so. Those are words of ability. It is why Christ said, "You cannot come ..." That is a word of ability.

Secondly, the Bible is clear that we are drawn by the Father. He first loved us. He initiated the relationship.

Careful, you are starting to sound like those dreaded calvinists. Now do you believe that "all that the Father gives to Christ will come"?

 

[Daniel David]

Helen, I understand what you are saying, because I used to hold a similar position. It is incorrect though. For years I boxed with God over this issue and have surrendered in defeat and have chosen to believe His Word.

First, I read your post about the gospel in the stars. I can appreciate your hours of study, but you inevitably come to false conclusions. If the stars contain the gospel, and all men can see the stars, why do we send missionaries? Romans 10 says that a preacher must be sent. If the stars are preachers, our missions agencies are all screwed up.

Second, I think you read into alot of what Jesus said and did and equate it with you theology. Every passage you mention can be interpreted by a Calvinist to. You post as though our Bibles don't contain all the verses that you and others have posted.

Third, is it possible you haven't truly searched everything out and examined each passage by itself and then and only then come to your conclusion?

Jude 1:4
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you see that? They were marked out for condemnation.

As far as the pronouncement of the angel, don't get hung up on the word "all". All is used throughout the Bible in a representative sense. For example, Paul said he was all things to all men. That is purely representative. In other words, Paul didn't become a woman abuser, drunk, homosexual... He also didn't specifically do something for every individual.

As far as John 3:16 goes, please answer the following:

a) God loves every individual the exact same (see Psalm 5:5 and others that deny this).

b) God loves only some people and enjoys being malicious toward others (see Ezekiel 33 and others that deny this).

c) God love all of His creation and does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked but also has a special love for His own (see the Bible that supports this).