The hopelessness of Calvinism

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
God is not surprised with how many elect are coming into the Kingdom, or what that final number of them will be.

No he certainly isn't Ray, for he has perfectly determined who they are.

Rev. 13:8 (ESV)
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

 

[Chris Temple]

What both sides need to acknowledge is that both sides are based on the philosophy of men. All of men's philosophical reasonings are doomed to fail in some area for man's intellect is fallen. There are elements of strict Calvinism which cannot be explained without causing problems with first cause and double predestination, and there are problems with the free will position in the area of man's involvement in his own salvation.

While this is partially true, it is not true that Calvinism is "based on the philosophy of men" but rather it is forged in simple exegesis. We take the texts - all of the texts - to mean what they say. God is sovereign and man is responsible. That mystery is left to God. The Arminian-Pelagian relies on his own philosophies and logic and cannot accept that dual truth, and therfore in his mind man's "freedom" must trump God's sovereignty.

If one thing is crystal clear in Scripture, its that God's sovereignty is never trumped by anything.

 

[swaimj]

Here is the original quote of connieman with which Helen opened this thread:

Bateman....you SHOULD believe in God in Christ, because if you do not, your sins are going to sink you into everlasting
death, hell, and punishment in the Day of Judgement. HOWEVER, you won't believe in God in Christ unless He wants
you to believe, and enables you.

There is the possibility that you are REPROBATE, rejected by God, and you will never believe. We will have to wait until
you die to know this...for, as the old folks used to say, "As long as there is life, there is hope."

If you are not chosen of God, and called by His Spirit, you will not believe. But, in your natural unbelief, you won't truly
care; you will think it all foolishness, until the day you are thrown into the Pit.

The issue which Helen originally raised is a valid one and I think it has been lost in this thread. The issue is this: "Does this quote follow a biblical pattern for presenting the gospel to people?" It is interesting that no calvinist has stepped forward to defend the quote. In fact, Christ Temple referred to it as a "perverted form of Calvinism or hyper-Calvinism." If it is a "perverted form of Calvinism or hyper-Calvinism", Chris, then isn't Helen correct to question it? Why do you not attack such views yourself, rather than attack Helen? In their silence on this quote, calvinists seem to consent to it. Won't some calvinist step up and evaluate this quote, please? Tell us, is this a biblical approach to evangelism or not?

 

[DocCas]

Calvinism is a man made system of philosophy that is designed to explain God's method of salvation. It is obviously of man for it bears the name of a man, either Calvin or Augustine. Is is based on scripture, but nowhere in scripture can you find a comprehensive statement of TULIP. It is infered rather than being explicit.

The same is true of Pelagiansim/Arminianism.

As I said, entrenched beyond the point of reason.

 

[Christopher]

I think the real problem here is that some are failing to recognize the spiritually dead nature of mankind.

He, as God, can determine to give us a free choice to come to Him, and even know what our choice will be.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44)

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65)

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Romans 3:11)

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[Ray Berrian]

Preachtheword,

You are correct that we, for the most part, have not taken the Gospel seriously. The lost are waiting for their first missionary. Let's not blame God for not reaching the unsaved. He has given His mandate in Mark 16:15-16. He has died for ' . . . every creature;' salvation takes place when the sinner ' . . . believes. . . ' [vs. 16]

 

[Christopher]

Ray, the gospel doesn't make sheep; it feeds them.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
To all non-Sovereigntists, how is it that God is demonstrating His love to the native that never hears the gospel? He can't be saved apart from the gospel. So I guess God is impotent throughout all centuries just hoping that a missionary will go and represent Him.

Ray, explain how God is showing grace to that poor native?

I don't think so. That native that never believes is just like every other person who never believes. God didn't choose them and they don't want to believe.

People are not seeking God and then being turned down. People are running from God. It is God who is the seeker in the salvation process.

II Thessalonians 2:13

Your question is a good one, despite the tone of it. It is a question many others who are not Christians ask of us. I spent several hours this afternoon getting some materials together to respond. If you are interested, I put the response here
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001298

in the general Baptist discussion area, because it is more important than just the argument over Calvinism etc. It's about three pages long and links to another article I co-wrote several years ago that has a lot more detailed explanation in one area.

Actually, I don't expect you to agree, but I do hope you will take the time to read it. The information, to the best of my knowledge is solid.

I do agree with you that people are not seeking God and then getting turned down. Jesus said that he who seeks will find and that He will never turn away any who come to Him. Yes, I know that the Father has to draw them to Jesus. That is because although they are looking, they don't know where to look. God leads them to the answer to their quest -- our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[connieman]

Well, Helen, and all you other "do-it-yourself-Christians"..,.

First, let me affirm that my hope, sure and certain for all eternity, is in God Almighty, according to the scriptures, and NOT in myself and my decision for, or acceptance of, Christ. As a wretched sinner, I know I would never be saved if it depended upon me to do the right thing, or have the "right stuff". ONLY by the Free and Mighty Grace of God which bringeth salvation shall I see God. (That "bringeth" is for KJV1611Only's benefit and pleasure, BTW)

I am so happy to see that there are others who are willing to stand against the Perverted Gospel of self-salvation by human, meritorious, freewill, decisions! No matter how wildly popular such a doctrine is in the modern day "churches".

I just have one or two things to say to you who boast of your "free-will, decisional regeneration", or "new birth". Ha, Ha, Ha!

"But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus..." I Cor 1:30 It is not of yourselves, "lest any man should boast."

Of all of the scriptures which seem to speak of human choice as the ground of salvation, not a one speaks of sinners actually doing what they ought to do, yes, are commanded to do. As in many places, unregenerate men are told what they should do, indeed what they must do, IF THEY ARE TO BE SAVED.

BUT, THEY DON'T DO IT, NO, NOT ONE. The prophets have told us there are none who will, no, not one, apart from God's predestinating, effectual, "get-the-job-done" Almighty, Never-failing, GRACE. AMEN, AND HALLELUJAH TO THE LAMB, ALONE!!

Sinful Men will no more obey a "do-it-yourself gospel" than they would obey the Law, but many imagine that they have pleased God by thinking positively "I believe, I believe", and by repeating over and over. like some Hindu mantra, "I am saved, I am saved, and I know it."
"They that are in the flesh CANNOT please God" no matter how often they "get saved".

"Every man at his best state is altogether vanity." Therefore "ye must be born again" in order to truly repent, believe the Gospel, and enter the kingdom of heaven. "Salvation is of the Lord." NOT OF MAN, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT, NOT EVEN BY HIS OWN "FAITH". "Abraham believed God" but only by the grace of God. Otherwise, he was only a sinner, just as all the rest of us.

I could go on multiplying scriptures all night, but still, only those who are blessed of God will ever believe the truth. Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest, and causest to approach unto Thee." Psalm 65:4 KJV God is approached only by faith given of God, not by a sinner's "faith".

Regards, in the Name of Him Who loved us who believe before we ever loved Him.

connieman

[ May 08, 2002, 02:14 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Does this mean I can quit witnessing, & stop visiting jails, & keep my tithing money, because God's allready chosen those who will be saved ?

 

[connieman]

Mr. Curtis...I could say yes, for all of your "good works" together will not get you even one inch closer to heaven. If you don't want to do all the things you mention, don't bother, for they won't help. Then, again, it depends on how you define "witnessing", and to whom or what you are "witnessing." Is it to the Jesus Who Saves, or to a jesus who only "wants to save."

Of course, we who believe are commanded to proclaim the gospel to every creature, and, out of love for Christ and His elect, we obey, as He enables. It is of course necessary to get the Gospel right, or get the right Gospel, and understand that we are only telling the Gospel. We should never imagine that it is we who are selling the Gospel to anyone. If they believe it, God Alone has done the work!

BTW, the Gospel is the good news that God in Christ has done everything necessary for the salvation of His chosen people. By way of expansion, we could say also that If you truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you have been chosen of God to salvation, and you shall be saved.

I think you may be confused because you do not understand the Gospel according to the scriptures. Perhaps you have been sold a "bill of goods"

Congratulations for all your zeal for God...but don't think He is necessarily impressed. "That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination to God", the Lord said. Many Jews and Hindus and so many others, do wonderful works for god, as they understand him, but they are not saved.

In the words of salesmanship, "We tells 'em, but God sells 'em!

In the Name of Him who loved us who believe by the grace of God First, before we ever loved Him.

conniman

[ May 08, 2002, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And the gospel is bad news for everyone else ?

You are mistaken, dangerously mistaken. I do not witness to people to secure my salvation. I witness to people to try to win souls to Christ.

A god who would choose certain people to burn in hell is not a god of love.

I will keep witnessing, thank you. Just do me a favor will you ? If somebody comes to this board looking for answers, keep your " it doesn't matter, your going to hell if your not chosen" garbage to yourself.

 

[Gina B]

I really don't know what I'm defined as! I've vehemently stated that I'm neither, especially not Calvinist, but everyone I talk to says I am! Oh well. Here is my experience with God in relation to the subject.

Total depravity: I followed what I truly believed and was convinced of, and had prayed over, and ended up in the LDS church. Even trying my best and following what I believed, I WAS DEAD.

Unconditional election: I thought I had chosen God. I most certainly had not. I became a Christian only when He chose to reveal himself to me. I wouldn't have recognized him otherwise. He chose me, I had nothing to do with that, or I'd still be in the LDS church.

Limited Atonement: I dunno, but it makes sense that He died for the church, and the church is made up the saved. The whole argument of limited atonement goes around in circles for me, but if he alone is responsible for our salvation, and there's even one person going to hell, then the atonement is limited, because if there sins are covered they're clean and not gonna go to hell. The Bible says we're cleansed when we believe, not that we're cleansed but not saved until we ask to be.

Irresistable grace: that one doesn't make much sense to me. It appears that people can and do resist grace.

I'm not sure what the last one is, and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I thinks it's the osas thing. If it is, I agree with that, and so do most Christians on here, I think.

There, that's what I think (or don't think, depending on how you look at it ). If you're a Calvinist don't argue with me, I was predestined to say it.
If you're a free willer and you disagree then the answer is the same. (Can I do that??)
da Gina

 

[Aki]

I see three situations:

1. Adam sinned. Did God's sovereignty reigned over Adam's volition or not? Can a Calvinist please answer this.

2. To the Calvinist, God's sovereignty reigned over that of the unbeliever so that they would have faith in God. I sure hope this was not the case for Adam, for just the thought of it scares me.

3. After salvation, those elected by God whose volition He overpowered as the Calvinist teach, will again choose the world to sin instead of God at certain moments, maybe just a few times. So then at this stage their volition overpowered God's sovereignty?

This is a great deal of inconsistencies for the Calvinists. bdw, the teaching of passive election and those associated with it would still NOT fit to answer these contradicting conditions.

 

[Daniel David]

Aki, you should know better than to post this kind of stuff. Okay, here we go again...

In regards to your three situations, I offer the following:

1. Adam sinned. Good, we are on the same page. God definitely reigned over Adam's volition. He is omnipotent. Nothing is greater than He. How can the action of a created being be greater than the Creator? I will never figure out why Arminians refuse to answer this. Just because God reigns over something does not mean He actively caused it to happen. As a parent, I am over my 1 year old son. Now, I can restrict what he does. Does that mean I actively make him do everything he does? Walking, talking, playing... Of course not.

2. God shows Christ to be of more worth than sin and changes the heart of the unbeliever. That isn't cruel. That is loving for the unbeliever has chosen to go to hell and not repent.

3. God does reign over the will of man. He breathes life into one who would OTHERWISE continue curse God and crucify Christ all over again. That redeemed person is being made into the image of Christ, daily. God has determined it to be so. A believer is moving toward God at all times. God is the one who works out sanctification 1 Thess. 5:24.

There is no inconsistency for the Calvinist, only for those who refuse to accept it as truth.

 

[Daniel David]

Calvinist can uphold that:

1. We don't fret about the future.
2. We don't believe open-theism is biblical.
3. We don't wonder if any will be saved.
4. We don't use manipulative methods in witnessing (see Bill Hybels and Rick Warren).
5. We don't question who is in control.
6. We recognize that man isn't the center of the universe.
7. We don't reject the Bible because it isn't fair .
8. We know that Christ will be victorious and accomplish ALL that the Father gave him to do.
9. We know that the elect are out there and need to be saved.
10. We are not afraid of where the truth will lead them.

On the other hand, Arminians are in a bad position. They can uphold that:
1. Man controls the future.
2. Open-theism is the direction of their system.
3. They lack assurance anyone will be saved.
4. They need to use manipulative methods to trick, con, and deceive people into salvation (see 1-2-3 pray after me).
5. They know for certain man is sovereign and God is not able to accomplish anything. He can only offer it.
6. They know everything revolves around man and his "freedom".
7. They believe that the entire Bible is true as long as it is understood that man has more freedom than God.
8. They hope Christ will be able to save people from their sin. It is really their choice anyway.
9. They don't know if any are out there will be saved.
10. They don't like where the truth leads (see the previous 9 points).

Due to time, this list was cut WAY short.

2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by swaimj:
Here is the original quote of connieman with which Helen opened this thread:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Bateman....you SHOULD believe in God in Christ, because if you do not, your sins are going to sink you into everlasting
death, hell, and punishment in the Day of Judgement. HOWEVER, you won't believe in God in Christ unless He wants
you to believe, and enables you.

There is the possibility that you are REPROBATE, rejected by God, and you will never believe. We will have to wait until
you die to know this...for, as the old folks used to say, "As long as there is life, there is hope."

If you are not chosen of God, and called by His Spirit, you will not believe. But, in your natural unbelief, you won't truly
care; you will think it all foolishness, until the day you are thrown into the Pit.

It is interesting that no calvinist has stepped forward to defend the quote. In fact, Christ Temple referred to it as a "perverted form of Calvinism or hyper-Calvinism." If it is a "perverted form of Calvinism or hyper-Calvinism", Chris, then isn't Helen correct to question it? Why do you not attack such views yourself, rather than attack Helen? In their silence on this quote, calvinists seem to consent to it. Won't some calvinist step up and evaluate this quote, please? Tell us, is this a biblical approach to evangelism or not?</font>[/QUOTE]Don't make more of "not stepping forward" than needs to be; most of us do have other lives and do not read nor respond to every post on the BB

The biblical approach to evangelism is to tell ALL the world "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". The theological truth is that only those drawn to Christ by the Father, regenerated from above, enabled to believe, will believe.

In condemning Helen's knee-jerk reactionism, I was referring to her portrayal of all Calvinism as hyper-Calvinism, and not directly to connieman's post, and her erecting of a strawman and then burning it down.

In Connieman's post he says this:

Bateman....you SHOULD believe in God in Christ, because if you do not, your sins are going to sink you into everlasting
death, hell, and punishment in the Day of Judgement. HOWEVER, you won't believe in God in Christ unless He wants you to believe, and enables you.

There is a mixture of truth and error here. It is absolutely true that "you SHOULD ( I would say must) believe in God in Christ, because if you do not, your sins are going to sink you into everlasting death, hell, and punishment in the Day of Judgement." I would probably not use an evangelistic approach so strongly worded, but the truth of it cannot be denied. One disagreement I have is that I believe God "wants" or "desires" in some sense all to believe, but none will unless enabled by God. This has to do with the different wills of God (see Piper ). (BTW, All Calvinists do not agree with Piper on this, and regardless it must be understood that God's overarching decretive will has decreed all things which come to pass).

There is the possibility that you are REPROBATE, rejected by God, and you will never believe. We will have to wait until
you die to know this...for, as the old folks used to say, "As long as there is life, there is hope."

Again, I agree and disagree. There is the very real possibility that the believer is reprobate and will never believe. But I would never include that in an evangelistic message. It sounds almost as if one delights in the possibilty of the other's reprobation. I prefer to think of all people as possibly elect.

If you are not chosen of God, and called by His Spirit, you will not believe. But, in your natural unbelief, you won't truly
care; you will think it all foolishness, until the day you are thrown into the Pit.

This is absolutely true. its important to relate it in theological discussion, but in encountering a nonbeliever, hope in Christ is what is to be presented, not a treatise on election.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:

A god who would choose certain people to burn in hell is not a god of love.

And this is not a biblical statement. Would you prefer a God of love who did not choose who would burn in hell? If so, for all your belief, YOU might wind up there!

This is the problem with the non-grace view: it sees all people as equal, banging on the walls of the King's castle, begging and pleading for food, and a mean-spirited king coming out in the courtyard, and selecting certain ones of the innocent to feed, starving the rest. But that is not the biblical picture of God.

Instead, the King has prepared a feast, a banquet, and has invited all. But no one is in the courtyard. No one is on the road to the castle. All remain down in their hovels, uncaring about the king and his offer, and in fact hating him. But the King was gracious and sent his servants to invite the people, but the people mocked them and killed them. So he sent more, and they killed them as well. And they so hated the King, that when he sent his only Son, they killed him as well. (cf Matt 21:33-44)

The fact is, that no one would be saved were it not for the gracious, electing love of God. In his mercy and love, God chooses to save some out of the mass of wretched, undeserving sinners on the earth. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, which saved a wretch like me". If you don't believe it; don't sing it.

Those He passes over in election, he rightly sends to hell. Who are you to judge what the Potter does with the clay? A rejection of the election of grace is always rooted in poor anthropology.

 

[Christopher]

Does this mean I can quit witnessing, & stop visiting jails, & keep my tithing money, because God's allready chosen those who will be saved?

Well we can knock one of those off from the start. You're not supposed to be tithing anyway because you're not a Jew giving it to the Levitical priesthood paying it three times a year now are you? You are to give as God prospers you (1 Corinthians 16:2). God's people are to proaclaim the good tidings of the Gospel. The Gospel is NOT a proposition, that is, you do this and God will do that. It is a proclaimation of what God has ALREADY DONE. Similar to this is the Emancipation Proclaimation that was sign in the 1800's. When Abraham Lincoln signed the Emanipation Proclaimation, he sent out messengers to praoclaim to the blacks that they had been LEGALLY set free. If the news never reached them, were they still set free? Legally, Yes they were. In their knowledge they weren't, but did that change the fact? Similarly, it is the purpose of the Gospel, which Jesus has been sending out messengers for the past 2,000 years to preach, to set God's people free from bondage and despair. No, it doesn't save them eternally but there is a temporal salvation in the glorious gospel in the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:12).

Preaching the gospel, visiting the jails, being a cherrful giver, etc. are not what you do to gain eternal life, but are evidence you have it. I'm sort of wondering if you are trusting on your works somehow to gain eternal life.

[ May 08, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Christopher ]

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Christopher:
It is a proclaimation of what God has ALREADY DONE. Similar to this is the Emancipation Proclaimation that was sign in the 1800's. When Abraham Lincoln signed the Emanipation Proclaimation, he sent out messengers to praoclaim to the blacks that they had been LEGALLY set free. If the news never reached them, were they still set free? Legally, Yes they were. In their knowledge they weren't, but did that change the fact? Similarly, it is the purpose of the Gospel, which Jesus has been sending out messengers for the past 2,000 years to preach, to set God's people free from bondage and despair.

Man, its hard fighting two fronts: non-grace and hyper-grace

Are you claiming, as do the Arminian universalists, that there are anonymous Christians, who are saved but just don't know it?

The fact is that ALL are lost and headed for hell - even the elect - until they hear the gospel, believe and are saved. We are saved by grace, through faith, not apart from faith. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16 ASV)

Even the elect are lost until they believe; what God's grace assures us is that the elect will hear, and be saved.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. RSV