savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
Only some of that Nation were Chosen !
Only some of that Nation were Chosen !
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The Implications of Original Sin
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
- Status
No, God was not fearful, but he did know that Adam would sin. The language of God "banking on" something, "trusting" people is simply not biblical language that is used to describe God.
Isaiah 46:9 - I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done.
Psalm 139:4 - Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.
Psalm 139:16 - Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Adam did not have a choice then. Trust is all over the bible. Is love not connected to trust? Doesn't faith operate through love? What you say is God built His perfect creation to fail. Build a fire to destroy the house, so we can use the firetruck, then restore the house, lol. Twisted twisting
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Absolutely. Amen. :thumbsup:
Love, trust and faith are not the products of necessity in the least. Because God foreknows something will come to pass is not proof in the least that He 'causes' such to come to pass. God in His Sovereignty chose to create beings with the power to be the first cause of their moral intents. Any notion of anything being blameworthy or praiseworthy apart from such creative freedom of the will is sheer folly. Such notions as God determining everything that comes to pass from eternity past is nothing short of painting a horrible blight on the Character of a Loving, Just, and Holy God. God is not the planner or the one responsible for sin.
Of a truth, God can foreknow matters of perfect choice without determining their end in the least.
glfredrick
New Member
Everywhere in the Bible are two perspectives -- ours and God's.
From our perspective, the actions seem to originate with us. From God's perspective, He KNOWS and SAYS that the actions originate with Him.
Seeing as how He is God and we are not, I would suppose that we ought to take heed to His perspective and realize that when it seems as if we are the ones dictating the action that in fact, that perspective is driven by our own rebellion of Him. And, in fact, He is in charge, sovereign, and directing the action. Not in some mechanistic robotic form as some here are so apt to suggest -- but rather in that He has decreed that we have a response to His directives.
To say otherwise is to dismiss out of hand the First Commandment.
The problem with your reasoning is that The bible never says that God trusts Adam, or us. WE are to trust God, but the bible simply does not say God trusts us.
So you would agree (against Plain-n-Simple) that God DOES know we will sin, and knew Adam would sin, even if he did not cause the sin?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If it is a moral intent or action by sentient beings, worthy of moral blame or praise, God is not the 'cause' of it. His foreknowledge is simply above our own, knowing matters of perfect choice without determining them.
I agree. God did know that Adam and Eve (and the rest of us) would sin and so prepared a Saviour before we were created.
Free will enables love, you cannot love without choice. But free will also enables the possibility of sin, it cannot be avoided. Jesus said this, he said that offences (sin) "must needs be".
Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
If God had made us robots that cannot sin, then neither could we love him. To love God (or anybody else) you must have free choice. This choice allows someone to freely love you, but it also allows the possibility that someone will reject and hate you. It cannot be avoided, it must needs be.
But notice Jesus said Woe to THAT MAN by whom the offence cometh. God did not design us to sin or determine us to sin. If we sin it is our own choice and we alone are responsible.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
HP: I would believe these verse would show that indeed God does have trust in men. What is trust other than confidence in another?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
HP: I would believe these verse would show that indeed God does have trust in men. What is trust other than confidence in another?
yeah, I think on the Lord's crown is the motto that reads "In man we trust" :laugh:
David said, I said in my haste, All men are liars. - Ps 116:11
My professor said he could have taken his time and said it too!
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: When David considers something said in his past said "in haste," that should give reasonable men reason to refrain from repeating his error, and certainly from misusing it. Reasonable men, that is. :thumbsup:
"Reasonable men" is equal in your thinking to philosophical rejectors of God's Word! However, for those who are Bible beleivers let the Word of God defend David's words in regard to the lost unregenerate man:
Ps 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth;
Jer 9:4 Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders.
Jer 9:5 And they will deceive every one his neighbour, and will not speak the truth:
Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Rom. 3:12....there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: have you ever even though about context. Here ie the passage you cherry pick from. Tell us Biblicist since you alone are the expert around here, who is david speaking of? Is he mentioning any universdla principle an suggesting there there are no exceptions to his remarks? Do not be 'foolish' in your response. :thumbsup:
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psa 5:7But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.
Psa 5:8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.
Psa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
Psa 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
Is there a Bible expert in the house that can tell us who the 'them,' 'their,' and 'they,' are being spoken of? Thanks.
Last edited by a moderator:
Have you ever thought seriously about reading my post before answering???? Here is what I said in my post:
"in regard to the lost unregenerate man:"
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Was this passage speaking in general in regards to "lost unregenerate man?" Was the intent of the author to show support for the universal depravity of 'all men,' or was he establishing any such notion as OS in this passage?
Do you know of any human apart from Christ that was not a lost man? He was not talking about the regenerate natue in believers in Christ (Psa. 116:15). I quoted other scriptures that taught the same thing so David did not lie. David repeats the same thing elsewhere and I quoted it.
What he said is true in regard to all lost men and the fallen nature even in the saints. However, it is not true of the regenerate nature. It is true of all children before the age of accountability. Just because they are not held accountable for lying does not change the fact they are lying and there is no way under heaven you can attribute "lying" to a born again nature or to the SPIRITUAL nature by new birth!.
glfredrick
New Member
The fact that this thread is still going back and forth seems evidence enough of original sin to me... :thumbsup:
How true that is!:thumbsup::thumbsup:
- Status