The importance of reading

[Allan]

Based on your authority I suppose?

Who else states these 'books' were something other than the scriptures?

Now you are making things up. Who said anything about Paul waiting to read mythology and philosophy? The answer? -- Only you.

It was an illistration, get a grip.
Regardless, no matter what secular works you can come up with it still amounts to the same thing.

There you go again Jimmy. You are the only one bringing up Plato. Why don't you try arguing against what people actually say?

Regardless, no matter what secular author you can come up with it still amounts to the same thing.

Secondly, I am arguing against what people are actually saying. They are stating (without any scripture validity) that the 'books' Paul was asking at most just any ol' books he could read or at the very least it would contain some scriptures with other works to keep him educated.

Paul made the existing Scriptures at that time his primary reading -- no doubt there. However, he read widely. There is evidence of this in Acts 17 where he quotes Epimenides, Cleanthes and Aratus who were unredeemed secular poets.

I don't dispute this however can you prove that his knowledge of said poetry came 'after' his salvation or was it during his tutoring growing up that accompanied his education?

Part of my argument is that you can't prove the first except via assumptions and speculations. The main bulk of what I am arguing is that those 'books' were secular or many of them were secular as some seem to speculate. There isn't any biblical evidence that Paul was even hoping for anything more than the scriptures.

 

[4His_glory]

My argument was that Paul wasn't asking for Greek mythology nor poems to bide his time in prison but was speaking specifically of the scriptures also known as 'books' with regard to the OT during that time.

But you don't know what Paul was asking for either. Most likely he did ask for Scripture (the parchments), but there is no reason to doubt that he requested other books as well.

As I pointed out earlier- we know he read greek poetry. And being a Pharisee, he would have read the Jewish commentaries on the law.

 

[Rippon]

It was an illistration,{sic} get a grip.
Regardless, no matter what secular works you can come up with it still amounts to the same thing.

Again, you have no evidence that Paul was referencing only Scripture in 2 Timothy 4:13.

I am arguing against what people are actually saying.

Only you came up with Plato's works and mythology -- no one else. You have the habit of not dealing with what people are actually saying.

They are stating (without any scripture validity) that the 'books' Paul was asking at most just any ol' books he could read or at the very least it would contain some scriptures with other works to keep him educated.

You have no scriptural validity to claim that Paul wanted only Scriptural materials. He was not asking Timothy to bring "just any ol' books." Again,these notions are what you have conjured up -- no one else.

I don't dispute this however can you prove that his knowledge of said poetry came 'after' his salvation or was it during his tutoring growing up that accompanied his education?

What difference would it make? How in the world is that even relevant? What's your point here? The information may have been common knowledge for all we know. But Paul used his information about what those poets had written to drive home some sanctified facts to the Athenians in Acts 17.

Part of my argument is that you can't prove the first except via assumptions and speculations.

Again I ask -- what diference does it make as to when he learned of those poet quotes? What possible point are you trying to make?

The main bulk of what I am arguing is that those 'books' were secular or many of them were secular as some seem to speculate.

Did you mean to say that you are arguing against the position that some of the literature Paul requested was secular?

There isn't any biblical evidence that Paul was even hoping for anything more than the scriptures.

There is no evidence that the entirety of Paul's requested reading material was Scripture.

 

[corndogggy]

In terms of Paul, it should be no surprise... you cannot be a good writer without being an accomplished reader.

 

[Allan]

Again, you have no evidence that Paul was referencing only Scripture in 2 Timothy 4:13.

Can you show any scholars, commentaries, or works that validate otherwise?

Only you came up with Plato's works and mythology -- no one else. You have the habit of not dealing with what people are actually saying.

No, post #8 brought Plato in the thread (again your wrong), I just incorporated it into my illistration of the works Paul was asking for was not to read up on Plato's philosophies or other secular works since he was at a very low point and was being attacked on all sides. It is more imagination than fact to assume he wanted anything else when he was spiritually so low

You have no scriptural validity to claim that Paul wanted only Scriptural materials.

Do you have proof of anything else? Thought not. :thumbs:

He was not asking Timothy to bring "just any ol' books." Again,these notions are what you have conjured up -- no one else.

So if they were not just 'any ol' books' but where more than that, what great learned books was he asking for. How would the believers know what to get for him?

The information may have been common knowledge for all we know.

I know of no scholar or commentator who states it was anything other than the scriptures (Books) and most that most likely the 'parchments' refered to some copies of his own epistles since the usage is refering individual peices and not whole - which would be called a book.

The majority of them states that since Paul was exhorting Timothy to continue studying the word and to stay 'in the word' that his request for his own books exemplify his words because it was his primary concern.

But if you have other information I'll be glad to listen.

There is no evidence that the entirety of Paul's requested reading material was Scripture.

No, based upon Pauls writings and encouragments it would be remiss not to assume he wasn't refering to scriptures.

 

[Allan]

In terms of Paul, it should be no surprise... you cannot be a good writer without being an accomplished reader.

Your are absolutely correct. :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Can you show any scholars, commentaries, or works that validate otherwise?

My time on the BB has been curtailed considerably. And I don't have as much research time these days. However, Spurgeon said ;"We do not know what the books were about." He thought the parchments were Holy Writ though.

John Gill said "books of various sorts." He, like C.H.S., believed that the parchments were Holy Scripture.

No, post #8 brought Plato in the thread (again your {sic}wrong),

Plato was not mentioned in post 8. Are you under the impression that Plato was a poet?!

I just incorporated it into my illistration {sic}of the works Paul was asking for was not to read up on Plato's philosophies or other secular works since he was at a very low point and was being attacked on all sides. It is more imagination than fact to assume he wanted anything else when he was spiritually so low.

Get off your Plato kick. The rest of the above is just speculation.

So if they were not just 'any ol' books' but where {sic}more than that, what great learned books was he asking for. {sic}How would the believers know what to get for him?

The Bible does not furnish that specific information. Timothy knew Paul very well and would have been quite familiar with his particular needs. Timothy would have known just what literature Paul was referencing.

I know of no scholar or commentator who states it was anything other than the scriptures (Books)

Well, you are entitled to be wrong again.See the first part of this post.

The majority of them states {sic}that since Paul was exhorting Timothy to continue studying the word and to stay 'in the word' that his request for his own books exemplify his words because it was his primary concern.

Perhaps you can mention just a few who hold to this 'majority view.'

No, based upon Pauls {sic}writings and encouragments {sic}it would be remiss not to assume he wasn't refering {sic}to scriptures.

That's just your little old opinion.

 

[Rippon]

Your {sic}are absolutely correct. :thumbs:

Do you think you are an accomplished reader?

 

[Allan]

My time on the BB has been curtailed considerably. And I don't have as much research time these days. However, Spurgeon said ;"We do not know what the books were about." He thought the parchments were Holy Writ though.

John Gill said "books of various sorts." He, like C.H.S., believed that the parchments were Holy Scripture.

Yes, but Spurgeon also said (as in the rest of what Spurgeon stated from the OP)

Brethren, what is true of ministers is true of all our people. You need to read. Renounce as much as you will all light literature, but study as much as possible sound theological works, especially the Puritanic writers, and expositions of the Bible. We are quite persuaded that the very best way for you to be spending your leisure, is to be either reading or praying. You may get much instruction from books which afterwards you may use as a true weapon in your Lord and Master's service. Paul cries, "Bring the books"—join in the cry.

Also with regard to the parchments from Spurgeon (same sermon just a little further down).

He says, "Especially the parchments." I think the books were Latin and Greek works, but that the parchments were Oriental; and possibly they were the parchments of Holy Scripture; or as likely, they were his own parchments, on which were written the originals of his letters which stand in our Bible as the Epistles to the Ephesians, the Philippians, the Colossians, and so on.[/U]

Notice he state the books were "Latin and Greek works" can you guess what those were
Also in looking into it more I found this. (scroll down about 90% of the page till you get to the books and parchments part -refering to 2 Tim 4)

Alexander Whyte comments regarding Paul's desire for the books and parchments noting that he belongs to...

That elect, and honorable, and enviable class of men that we call students of New Testament exegesis. Surely they are the happiest and the most enviable of all men, who have been set apart to nothing else but to the understanding and the opening up of the hid treasures of God’s Word and God’s Son. (The Walk, Conversation, and Character of Jesus Christ our Lord)

BOOK FRIENDS - The apostle Paul sat alone in a Roman prison facing his final weeks on earth. The wet cold of the dungeon must have pierced his bones as he penned a letter to his young friend Timothy, urging him to come before winter (2Ti 4:21). He asked Timothy to bring a cloak with him, which would shield him from the gnawing chill, and to bring the scrolls, and especially the parchments.

The parchments, made of animal skins, may have been copies of parts of the Old Testament. The “books,” made of papyrus, were probably scrolls. Clearly, Paul did not plan to write another weighty theological letter like the book of Romans. Nor was he about to prepare more sermons. He needed those books to warm his heart and to keep his mind alert.

Plato was not mentioned in post 8. Are you under the impression that Plato was a poet?!

No, you're correct on that (hey, you got one! :thumbs: )
I was thinking it said Greek 'works' but in looking back it said poetry.

No, I know he isn't a poet and I know that mainly because I have most of his works. Had to for school -History of Ideas course (early literiture and Greek works).

Get off your Plato kick.

Nope

The rest of the above is just speculation.

Speculation that Paul was at a low point and being attacked?

Go back and read the chapter.
J. Macarthur states of it:

Luke was virtually his only contact with the outside world (4:11). Paul was confined in a Roman dungeon, dreading the savage cold of coming winter (vv. 13, 21), and without any hope of deliverance from the death sentence that had been imposed on him. He suffered because of the sadistic contempt of his enemies. He was even abandoned or disavowed by some of his closest friends. He wrote, "This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me" (2 Timothy 1:15).

The Bible does not furnish that specific information. Timothy knew Paul very well and would have been quite familiar with his particular needs. Timothy would have known just what literature Paul was referencing.

Exactly, and that would have been just what Paul was 'already' telling Timothy to be reading earlier

Perhaps you can mention just a few who hold to this 'majority view.'

Barnes, Clark (or Clarke - don't remember), Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, Wieseby (sp?), Ryrie, Macarthur... the list can go on and on.

That's just your little old opinion.

Apparently I'm in great company :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Allan]

Do you think you are an accomplished reader?

You bet :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

Barnes, Clark (or Clarke - don't remember)...

What's this, about the seventh time you have confused that strong Calvinist with the arch-Arminian?

Apparently I'm in great company.

Except for Spurgeon and Gill regarding "the books". They both thought the parchments were the Scriptures.

Again, because of time constraints I can't rummage around to find out what a number of scholars have thought was being discussed in 2 Timothy 4:13.

At least you have dropped your silly argument about when Paul found out about the poets he quoted in Acts 17:28 -- pre-conversion or post-conversion.

 

[Rippon]

You bet :thumbs:

That was your reply as to if you consider yourself to be an accomplished reader.

So I suppose you think that qualifies you to become a good writer?

Is proper grammar, sentence structure, coherence and spelling also important to you?

 

[Allan]

What's this, about the seventh time you have confused that strong Calvinist with the arch-Arminian?

Doesn't matter they are both pretty close to the truth.

Again, because of time constraints I can't rummage around to find out what a number of scholars have thought was being discussed in 2 Timothy 4:13.

That's ok, my short list should help you out.

At least you have dropped your silly argument about when Paul found out about the poets he quoted in Acts 17:28 -- pre-conversion or post-conversion.

Nope.

 

[Allan]

That was your reply as to if you consider yourself to be an accomplished reader.

You're right. Sorry. I meant to say "You bet'cha!"

So I suppose you think that qualifies you to become a good writer?

Yepper. :wavey:

Is proper grammar, sentence structure, and spelling also important to you?

Oh yes.
It is one of the reasons my College grade point average was 3.74.
However, there is no need in this is forum to dot every 'i' and cross every 't'.

It is more fun to sit back and watch certain persons in these debates who have no valid arguments resort to bringing up anything they can for ah-hom attacks against a person instead of sticking to the subject.

 

[Rippon]

At least you have dropped your silly argument about when Paul found out about the poets he quoted in Acts 17:28 -- pre-conversion or post-conversion.

To which you replied "Nope". Well then, elaborate. Why does it matter when Paul found out about those secular poets? Of what possible significance is it? His knowlege of that piece of information was instrumental in witnessing to the Athenians. Therefore, if he learned of them in his pre-conversion days -- so what? And if he discovered the data after his conversion -- what possible point are you trying to make? The Lord used it as a tool in Paul's ministry regardless of any timetable in your mind.

As I have said -- knowledge of those poets was most likely common knowledge at the time.

 

[Rippon]

Oh yes.
It is one of the reasons my College grade point average was 3.74.

What Community College did you attend?

However, there is no need in this is forum to dot every 'i' and cross every 't'.

But the thing is you don't include an "i" or a "t" in their proper places most of the time.

Your English problems are much worse than you can imagine. This may only be a forum -- but you show no sign of being a future author. Perhaps you may speak better than you write. Let's hope so anyway.

If you are "an accomplished reader" why don't you evidence better language skills? Maybe the kind of subject matter you use employs substandard English. Therefore you are unduly influenced by below average materials. You are what you read, you know.

 

[Allan]

What Community College did you attend?

TTU and Southeastern College - which is apart of SEBTS

But the thing is you don't include an "i" or a "t" in their proper places most of the time.

Again, don't need to

Your English problems are much worse than you can imagine.

Your ESP is very poor.

This may only be a forum -- but you show no sign of being a future author.

I love the fact that it irritates you so much. :laugh:

If you are "an accomplished reader" why don't you evidence better language skills?

Again, there is no need to try to impress anyone on here or anywhere else unless I wish it published or graded.

Maybe the kind of subject matter you use employs substandard English. Therefore you are unduly influenced by below average materials. You are what you read, you know.

I know, I am a Child of the One True and Living God and you should choose your words with more wisdom, grace, and love.

I'm am however getting really tired of your constant postings which do nothing but belittle, degrade, and put down others as well as myself in your childish endevor to exhault yourself. Thus I have had to resort (once again) to reporting your posts.

 

[Rippon]

Your ESP is very poor.

Do you actually believe that bunk?

I'm am


endevor

exhault

Get yourself a dictionary man.

Perhaps this thread should be retitled :The Importance Of Reading, Writing And Spelling.

 

[Allan]

Get yourself a dictionary man.

Perhaps this thread should be retitled :The Importance Of Reading, Writing And Spelling.

THINK for second Rip, it was INTENSIONAL. :thumbs:

It is the same thing I most always do to you when you start your garbage

 

[Rippon]

THINK for a second Rip, it was INTENSIONAL. :thumbs:

Good try, but I don't believe you.

You have posted on threads in which I have not participated which evidence deplorable English. So your evasion is not working.

It is the same thing I most always do to you when you start your garbage

Is the above supposed to show your grace?