The Incarnation of Jesus [from Dougcho new member]

[Scarlett O.]

MOD NOTE:: This is a post from a new member who put two separate concepts in one thread. I've moved this one to a separate thread.

Address your comments to Dougcho.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let’s investigate and see if we can possibly get a solid understanding of the Incarnation (birth) of Jesus Christ.

You will see below … In the beginning, the Members of the Holy Trinity were God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.

Christ (English) = Cristos (Greek) = Messiah (Hebrew)

How did the Holy Spirit perform this “Immaculate Conception”?
Possibility #1: the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm necessary
Possibility #2: the Holy Spirit “created” the fetus in Mary’s womb

God the Holy Spirit “created” Jesus

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)

Jesus was called “the Son of God” because His “Father” was God the Holy Spirit!
And Luke quoted Isaiah as saying: Jesus would be “God with us” …

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus … So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying: ‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Did Jesus inherit man’s sin nature?

Years ago, a British lady doctor told me (via email)
that every human inherits the DNA of BOTH parents.
So, unless the Holy Spirit over-rode this (which is a possibility),
the baby Jesus in Mary’s womb inherited her DNA.
Does this mean that Jesus was “fully man”?

“Therefore, it was necessary for Him to be made in every respect like us,
His brothers and sisters, so that He could be our merciful and faithful
High Priest before God.” (Hebrews 2:17)
So, Jesus was “fully man” … But, how then could He be “fully God”?

God the Word’s role in the “creation” of Jesus

“… the Word was God … And the Word became human (Jesus Christ)
and made His home among us.” (John 1:1, 1:14)
So, Jesus was “fully God” … But, wouldn’t this over-ride His sin nature?

Your comments on all of this would be most interesting!

And just thought I’d ask:
When did God the Word become a human being (Jesus Christ)
… while Jesus was in the womb, or after He was born?

Sorry, not able to edit this OP very well.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Welcome aboard, Dougcho. We are glad to have you.

Here's something to consider. The "Immaculate Conception" is not a Protestant teaching. It's a Catholic teaching. Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless from her sinful parents and that she never needed a Savior. That's false, of course. They need that false doctrine so that Jesus could be sinless.

When referring to the miraculous birth of Jesus Christ, the "Virgin Birth" is the correct term used.

Oddly enough, there are Protestants who believe that only fathers pass down sin to their children because how could Jesus have been sinless and had a human and sinful mother? That's a false idea, too. Her being a virgin made the birth miraculous and her sin not passing to Jesus made the birth miraculous. Jesus is definitely the biological child of Mary and the OT predicts it in Genesis 3 that the "seed" of the woman would crush Satan's head.

Also, Jesus Christ IS the Word of God. Revelation 19:12-13 = "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Lastly, Jesus is NOT a created being. The Holy Spirit did NOT create Jesus.

 

[JonC]

@Dougcho , I have no interest in the "how" part. But I do find the last part very interesting.

We have to consider "sin nature" before we can ask if Jesus inherited it. Here Scripture gives us a little help by classifying nature into "flesh" and "spirit". And Scripture describes these as desires.

So the question is whether Jesus was made like us, was tempted like we are (tempted by the desires of the flesh).

I believe He was.

I do not believe we can look at Jesus as having two competing and seperate natures. I affirm the "Doctrine of the Trinity", so will look at the issue through that presentation while acknowledging it is more a presentation than an explanation (we can only know God as He has revealed Himself to us).

We speak of a human nature and a divine nature (two natures) but united inseparably yet without mixture in the nature (singular) of Christ.

There is no conflict whereby one nature competes to override another. There are desires and temptations of the flesh. And there is a divine nature that we cannot, as human beings, grasp.

Jesus explains the divine nature which is manifested in human terms by His interactions with man and seen within His human nature. Although having fleshly desires Christ did not allow these desires to conceive sin.


It could help by looking at ourselves. We have a human nature (flesh) and a spiritual nature (Christ in us, the Spirit in us). What determines which one overrides the other in any given situation?

 

[canadyjd]

There has been a long standing debate concerning the “eternal sonship” of the Second Person of the Godhead.

You are correct to point out the God Man Jesus was born in space time to fulfill prophecy. He didn’t receive the name “Jesus” until He was born of woman.

But did God the Word (John 1) exist as “Son” to the Father within the Godhead from all eternity?

Many scholars believe that is true, in what they describe as an “economy” with the Godhead. Simply a reflection of how the three Persons within the Godhead relate to one another.

I always find this discussion interesting

peace to you

 

[JonC]

There has been a long standing debate concerning the “eternal sonship” of the Second Person of the Godhead.

You are correct to point out the God Man Jesus was born in space time to fulfill prophecy. He didn’t receive the name “Jesus” until He was born of woman.

But did God the Word (John 1) exist as “Son” to the Father within the Godhead from all eternity?

Many scholars believe that is true, in what they describe as an “economy” with the Godhead. Simply a reflection of how the three Persons within the Godhead relate to one another.

I always find this discussion interesting

peace to you

Seems like we had a similar discussion some months back.

It helps to define "sonship" as it would apply pre-Incarnation. Those who hold to "eternal sonship" use it to differentiate and describe a different role between the 1st and 2nd Persons of the Trinity (the Son coming forth from the Father).

It is interesting. I don't think it is, however, after topic we can fully understand (we understand as human beings).

 

[kyredneck]

I believe in the Impeccability of Christ.

I believe He revealed God.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Jn 1

I believe when we get to heaven, He's all we'll see.

9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, Col 2

 

[Charlie24]

MOD NOTE:: This is a post from a new member who put two separate concepts in one thread. I've moved this one to a separate thread.

Address you comments to Dougcho.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let’s investigate and see if we can possibly get a solid understanding of the Incarnation (birth) of Jesus Christ.

You will see below … In the beginning, the Members of the Holy Trinity were God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit.

Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.

Christ (English) = Cristos (Greek) = Messiah (Hebrew)

How did the Holy Spirit perform this “Immaculate Conception”?
Possibility #1: the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm necessary
Possibility #2: the Holy Spirit “created” the fetus in Mary’s womb

God the Holy Spirit “created” Jesus

The archangel Gabriel said to the virgin Mary:
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus … The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:31-35)

Jesus was called “the Son of God” because His “Father” was God the Holy Spirit!
And Luke quoted Isaiah as saying: Jesus would be “God with us” …

And Gabriel said to Joseph:
“… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus … So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet (Isaiah), saying: ‘Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel’, which is translated, ‘God with us’.” (Matthew 1:20-23)

Did Jesus inherit man’s sin nature?

Years ago, a British lady doctor told me (via email)
that every human inherits the DNA of BOTH parents.
So, unless the Holy Spirit over-rode this (which is a possibility),
the baby Jesus in Mary’s womb inherited her DNA.
Does this mean that Jesus was “fully man”?

“Therefore, it was necessary for Him to be made in every respect like us,
His brothers and sisters, so that He could be our merciful and faithful
High Priest before God.” (Hebrews 2:17)
So, Jesus was “fully man” … But, how then could He be “fully God”?

God the Word’s role in the “creation” of Jesus

“… the Word was God … And the Word became human (Jesus Christ)
and made His home among us.” (John 1:1, 1:14)
So, Jesus was “fully God” … But, wouldn’t this over-ride His sin nature?

Your comments on all of this would be most interesting!

And just thought I’d ask:
When did God the Word become a human being (Jesus Christ)
… while Jesus was in the womb, or after He was born?

Sorry, not able to edit this OP very well.

I've seen theory after theory explaining the relationship of the Father and the Son.

The truth is that no man can explain it, and if he/her thinks they can they are deceiving themselves.

The mortal mind cannot understand that relationship, the reason I believe God made no effort to explain it.

But there's one thing for sure, if Christ had been born with a sin nature, He Himself would have needed a Savior.

Christ was not born with a sin nature! That was the purpose of the Spirit conceived virgin birth.

 

[37818]

After the fall, the preincarnate Son is quoted in Genesis 3:22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . . .

Now the Son of God in His incarnation received the "knowledge of good and evil from two sources. From His mother and from Himself being God too.

So it is written, because He had became truly human, in Hebrews 4:15, For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Charlie24]

After the fall, the preincarnate Son is quoted in Genesis 3:22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . . .

Now the Son of God in His incarnation received the "knowledge of good and evil from two sources. From His mother and from Himself being God too.

So it is written, because He had became truly human, in Hebrews 4:15, For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

And that tells me Christ lived His life with the possibility of sinning, but didn't.

You can bet your last $ that Satan would not have wasted his time tempting Christ to sin if he knew that wasn't possible.

Satan is not stupid by any means, he's deceived No man has ever born into this world, other than Christ, that knows the Scripture better than Satan.

 

[Van]

SNIP
.

I see no one has addressed any response to "Dougcho" perhaps because the address is not easily found. I could not find it. Please provide a link to "Dougcho's" address and a link to the other thread.

Thanks Van

 

[Charlie24]

The Trinity and everything it entails, is not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of faith.

Pure blind faith!

 

[kyredneck]

You can bet your last $ that Satan would not have wasted his time tempting Christ to sin if he knew that wasn't possible.

12 And straightway the Spirit driveth him forth into the wilderness. Mk 1

Consider the possibility that the devil was also 'driven' into the wilderness.

 

[JonC]

But there's one thing for sure, if Christ had been born with a sin nature, He Himself would have needed a Savior.

Why does God's Word say we need a Savior?

hint - it is not because we were born with a "sin nature". (You can find the answer throughout Scripture....e.g., Romans 3, Romans ,14, Psalms 53, 1 Corinthians 10, Romans 6).

 

[Charlie24]

12 And straightway the Spirit driveth him forth into the wilderness. Mk 1

Consider the possibility that the devil was also 'driven' into the wilderness.

The Scripture doesn't say that. When we begin to consider things such as this, we begin to enter into error.

 

[Charlie24]

Why does God's Word say we need a Savior?

hint - it is not because we were born with a "sin nature". (You can find the answer throughout Scripture....e.g., Romans 3, Romans ,14, Psalms 53, 1 Corinthians 10, Romans 6).

When Paul was speaking of the sin nature, he said in Rom. 7:14,

"...but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Sin is sure with the sin nature. Paul taught us in Rom 6-8 that we can control that sin nature by walking in the Spirit.

So the sin nature plays a huge roll in our need for a Savior.

 

[kyredneck]

When we begin to consider things such as this, we begin to enter into error.

Man, you're a trip. Am I in danger of hellfire damnation for considering such things?

 

[Charlie24]

Man, you're a trip. Am I in danger of hellfire damnation for considering such things?

LOL, no my friend, you are not in danger of hellfire for considering such things.

You are only in danger of that by rejecting God's plan of salvation.

Now here we have a problem, what exactly is His plan, and exactly how do we receive it?

 

[37818]

The Trinity and everything it entails, is not a matter of understanding, it's a matter of faith.

Pure blind faith!

Trinity is the name of the explanation that the three Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the one and same God.

 

[kyredneck]

LOL, no my friend, you are not in danger of hellfire for considering such things.

Consider this; that Satan cannot touch one of God's without the approval of God, Job and Peter comes to mind. The Temptation had to be arranged, and I'm not convinced Satan was as anxious to confront Yahweh in the flesh as you say.

 

[Charlie24]

Trinity is the name of the explanation that the three Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the one and same God.

And that is exactly what no man can explain!