The Incarnation of Jesus [from Dougcho new member]

[JonC]

When Paul was speaking of the sin nature, he said in Rom. 7:14,

"...but I am carnal, sold under sin."

Sin is sure with the sin nature. Paul taught us in Rom 6-8 that we can control that sin nature by walking in the Spirit.

So the sin nature plays a huge roll in our need for a Savior.

We are carnal (flesh). We are sold under sin.

But we are talking about a "sin nature". This is a category foreign to Scripture. Sin occurs not when we desire something, not when that desire becomes temptation, but when we give into that desire. Man sets his eyes on the flesh (on the carnal) and sins (and is sold under sin).

This does not mean that Jesus did not have a human nature like us. He set His eyes on the Spirit. He overcame.

Think of it this way - If Jesus was tempted in all points like us then He had to have been tempted by the flesh (the carnal). Would it be sin for Jesus to go into the wilderness to fast and pray and yet eat because He was hungry? Yes.

It is not an issue of ability but of the will - of Jesus desiring to do the will of the Father.

 

[37818]

And that tells me Christ lived His life with the possibility of sinning, but didn't.

You can bet your last $ that Satan would not have wasted his time tempting Christ to sin if he knew that wasn't possible.

Satan is not stupid by any means, he's deceived No man has ever born into this world, other than Christ, that knows the Scripture better than Satan.

Satan is a liar.
Luke 4:5-7, Psalms 24:1.

And Jesus Christ is also always God. Luke 18:19, And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
So Jesus could never have sinned.

 

[Charlie24]

Consider this; that Satan cannot touch one of God's without the approval of God, Job and Peter comes to mind. The Temptation had to be arranged, and I'm not convinced Satan was as anxious to confront Yahweh in the flesh as you say.

Just as God allows Satan to tempt us to sin, He allowed Satan the same with His Son.

I believe Satan knew exactly what the Cross meant for mankind, and Satan was willing for Christ to do it, but Satan believed he could prevent the resurrection of Christ and stop God's plan of redemption.

Just as Satan believed he could destroy Israel all those times in the OT, thereby making God a liar in prophecy to bring Israel back to the state of a nation.

His last big attempt to destroy Israel, and came very near to success, was in WW2 when he possessed Hitler and placed it in his mind that the world must be ridded of the Jews.

Satan is still at it right now, trying everything he can do to wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, making God a liar in the words of Paul, "And all Israel shall be saved."

If Satan can make just one prophesy of God to fall to the ground, Satan has won the victory over God.

He is deceived in believing he can do this, but that will not stop him from trying believing he can sooner or later do it.

Yes, I believe the temptation of Christ was arranged, just leading Satan on through his deceived state straight into the pits of Hell.

 

[37818]

And that is exactly what no man can explain!

Trinity is it's explanation.

 

[Charlie24]

We are carnal (flesh). We are sold under sin.

But we are talking about a "sin nature". This is a category foreign to Scripture. Sin occurs not when we desire something, not when that desire becomes temptation, but when we give into that desire. Man sets his eyes on the flesh (on the carnal) and sins (and is sold under sin).

This does not mean that Jesus did not have a human nature like us. He set His eyes on the Spirit. He overcame.

Think of it this way - If Jesus was tempted in all points like us then He had to have been tempted by the flesh (the carnal). Would it be sin for Jesus to go into the wilderness to fast and pray and yet eat because He was hungry? Yes.

It is not an issue of ability but of the will - of Jesus desiring to do the will of the Father.

The sin nature we inherited from Adam is a sure thing, there is no way possible for us not to sin.

If Christ had been born with this sin nature, there is no way he could not be a sinner just as we are.

Christ set aside His power of deity but could not set aside the fact that He is deity.

He lived his life just as we do, not knowing what was around the next corner, unless the Holy Spirit revealed it to Him.

Christ was not some super human with a sin nature that He could defy and overcome that sin nature.

NO, He was born without that sin nature.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I see no one has addressed any response to "Dougcho" perhaps because the address is not easily found. I could not find it. Please provide a link to "Dougcho's" address and a link to the other thread.

Thanks Van

Van, the OP, other than the MOD NOTE, IS Dougcho's post. He wrote this opening post about the Incarnation and a post about Calvinism in the same opening thread. I separated the two.

His other post, about Calvinism and under his own name, is in the Calvinism thread. Here is that thread. Understanding God’s election | Baptist Christian Forums

When I said "address" him, I meant to speak to him.

 

[Charlie24]

Satan is a liar.
Luke 4:5-7, Psalms 24:1.

And Jesus Christ is also always God. Luke 18:19, And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
So Jesus could never have sinned.

37818, explain how Christ is one single entity while co-existing as One with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

One in essence is not answering the question, and is not what John was saying.

 

[JonC]

The sin nature we inherited from Adam is a sure thing, there is no way possible for us not to sin.

If Christ had been born with this sin nature, there is no way he could not be a sinner just as we are.

Christ set aside His power of deity but could not set aside the fact that He is deity.

He lived his life just as we do, not knowing what was around the next corner, unless the Holy Spirit revealed it to Him.

Christ was not some super human with a sin nature that He could defy and overcome that sin nature.

NO, He was born without that sin nature.

I need for you to provide the passage that you are referencing about the "sin nature". I can't find it, at least not quickly, by looking up "sin nature" or the difference between Jesus human nature and ours.

Thanks.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe Satan knew exactly what the Cross meant for mankind, and Satan was willing for Christ to do it, but Satan believed he could prevent the resurrection of Christ and stop God's plan of redemption.

...never heard that version before.

I don't think he had any idea what the cross was going to accomplish, otherwise, he wouldn't have chased after The Woman down through the millennia to 'bruise His heel'.

 

[Charlie24]

I need for you to provide the passage that you are referencing about the "sin nature". I can't find it, at least not quickly, by looking up "sin nature" or the difference between Jesus human nature and ours.

Thanks.

If you like, I can create a thread with all the details on the sin nature from Scripture.

The short answer is found in Rom. 5:21 where Paul introduces the sin nature.

The word "sin" in this verse is accompanied with the Greek definite article.

It turns the the word "sin" from a verb to a noun.

It actually reads "THE sin" and refers to the original sin committed in the Garden of Eden, where Adam fell from the state of innocence to the state of the sinful nature.

Paul goes on in Rom. 6-8 to tell us all about this nature, what it does, how we can control it, what happens if we don't control it, etc.

 

[Charlie24]

...never heard that version before.

I don't think he had any idea what the cross was going to accomplish, otherwise, he wouldn't have chased after The Woman down through the millennia to 'bruise His heel'.

That is a misunderstanding of "bruising the heel."

God told Satan in Gen. 3:15, that you (Satan) used the woman to bring sin into the world, and I (God) will use the woman to bring the Redeemer into the world, who will redeem mankind. This is the "enmity" between Satan and the woman.

The enmity between your seed (those who follow Satan) and the woman's seed ( the Lord Jesus Christ) shall bruise your head (Satan) the victory Christ will win over Satan at the Cross, and you shall bruise HIs heel, (Christ), the sufferings He would endure on the Cross.

 

[37818]

37818, explain how Christ is one single entity while co-existing as One with the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

One in essence is not answering the question, and is not what John was saying.

Are you referring to John 10:30? I and my Father are one.?
In Romans 8:9 and Romans 8:16. John 4:24.

 

[Charlie24]

Are you referring to John 10:30? I and my Father are one.?
In Romans 8:9 and Romans 8:16. John 4:24.

1 John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

 

[Charlie24]

If you like, I can create a thread with all the details on the sin nature from Scripture.

The short answer is found in Rom. 5:21 where Paul introduces the sin nature.

The word "sin" in this verse is accompanied with the Greek definite article.

It turns the the word "sin" from a verb to a noun.

It actually reads "THE sin" and refers to the original sin committed in the Garden of Eden, where Adam fell from the state of innocence to the state of the sinful nature.

Paul goes on in Rom. 6-8 to tell us all about this nature, what it does, how we can control it, what happens if we don't control it, etc.

I'm sorry, I made another stupid mistake. That's what I get for giving Scripture verse off the top of my head.

It's not Rom 5:29, it's Rom. 5:21. I made the correction in post #30. Again, sorry!

 

[JonC]

If you like, I can create a thread with all the details on the sin nature from Scripture.

The short answer is found in Rom. 5:21 where Paul introduces the sin nature.

The word "sin" in this verse is accompanied with the Greek definite article.

It turns the the word "sin" from a verb to a noun.

It actually reads "THE sin" and refers to the original sin committed in the Garden of Eden, where Adam fell from the state of innocence to the state of the sinful nature.

Paul goes on in Rom. 6-8 to tell us all about this nature, what it does, how we can control it, what happens if we don't control it, etc.

Yes, please. I know the opinion and some passages used (like Romans 5:21), but I do not know of the passages you are using that talk about a "sin nature". I can only find "flesh" and "spirit" when looking for the topic in the Bibile.

If I don't catch the thread, and if you don't mind, shoot me a pm.

I have always heard of this "sin nature", but the only passages that I have been able to find so far have been to the contrary. I was starting to think it was just an opinion unsupported by Scripture.

I appreciate your effort and patience and I very much look forward to exploring the passages you find.

Thanks again.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, please. I know the opinion and some passages used (like Romans 5:21), but I do not know of the passages you are using that talk about a "sin nature". I can only find "flesh" and "spirit" when looking for the topic in the Bibile.

If I don't catch the thread, and if you don't mind, shoot me a pm.

I have always heard of this "sin nature", but the only passages that I have been able to find so far have been to the contrary. I was starting to think it was just an opinion unsupported by Scripture.

I appreciate your effort and patience and I very much look forward to exploring the passages you find.

Thanks again.

Ok, I haven't put this together in a thread in a long time, I can't remember when that was. it was so far back. But I have done it before.

It's time consuming and tiresome, considering I'm lazy now and just won't do it unless someone is really interested. It appears you are the interested one and I will be happy to put it together you, Jon.

With my schedule its will take a few days.

 

[JonC]

Ok, I haven't put this together in a thread in a long time, I can't remember when that was. it was so far back. But I have done it before.

It's time consuming and tiresome, considering I'm lazy now and just won't do it unless someone is really interested. It appears you are the interested one and I will be happy to put it together you, Jon.

With my schedule its will take a few days.

Thank you. I've seen threads about opinions and about what some believe the Bible teaches but not actual passages.

I'm not in a hurry. I normally concentrate on the BB when I'm at work (I work shifts).

I'll try to find passages that msy challenge the view so we can have a discussion.

 

[Charlie24]

Thank you. I've seen threads about opinions and about what some believe the Bible teaches but not actual passages.

I'm not in a hurry. I normally concentrate on the BB when I'm at work (I work shifts).

I'll try to find passages that msy challenge the view so we can have a discussion.

Sounds good to me, Jon! I enjoy good constructive conversation on the Scripture, actually it's all I care to do anymore in this life. We will never to cease from learning from the Word of God in this life!

However, you won't be discussing this with me as the originator of this concept on the sin nature. I'm not that smart!

All the info in the coming thread came from Kenneth Wuest, a noted Greek scholar and professor of "New Testament Greek" at the Moody Bible Institute, until his death in, I think around the early 60's.

 

[37818]

1 John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

I am persuaded, 1 John 5:6-8, This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record, The Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 19:34-35, But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

 

[Charlie24]

I am persuaded, 1 John 5:6-8, This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record, The Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 19:34-35, But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

The "water" refers to "The Living Word" becoming flesh. It refers to His humanity symbolized by water.

The "blood" refers to the necessity of His shedding of the blood to redeem man.

The ideas is that "The Word" had to become a human in order shed His human blood as payment for our sins. An absolute necessity for man to brought back into fellowship with God.

The wages of sin is death (spiritual death),God demands the blood of man for his sins.

Lev. 17:11

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

He gave us "The Living Word" in the flesh, laid on the alter of the Cross, to take our place and pay our sin debt. But there is a condition, we must believe in His sacrifice.