37818
Well-Known Member
What are you ranting about?
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The Incarnation of Jesus [from Dougcho new member]
- Thread starter Scarlett O.
- Start date
I wasn't aware that I was ranting. I thought I was explaining the Scripture you posted.
37818
Well-Known Member
There’s no misunderstanding. The ‘big picture’ is given in Revelation 12.
Well put, and I whole heartedly agree.
From above:
Just as God allows Satan to tempt us to sin, He allowed Satan the same with His Son.
I believe Satan knew exactly what the Cross meant for mankind, and Satan was willing for Christ to do it, but Satan believed he could prevent the resurrection of Christ and stop God's plan of redemption.
Redemption from what? Was Adam created to be redeemed or so that through the redemption of him and his children, the devil, who sinned from the beginning, and the works of the devil, could be destroyed?
Consider 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14
he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil;
Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through [the] death he might destroy him having the power of [the] death -- that is, the devil --
Did the devil need destroying of which the following is stated?
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
What was needed for the destruction of the devil and his works? Was there going to be a need for the Word to be made flesh? Incarnated?
Why?
Ok, ky, it's fine with me that you believe that, we just disagree. But let me explain why I see it differently.
I suppose this will take extra space to explain, so bear with me.
Satan is not a human being, he's a creature from a completely different realm of the living. He has power next to God, and wisdom as well. He just can't read the hearts and minds of man or be everywhere as God does.
Remember when Moses threw down his rod before Pharaoh and God turned the rod into a serpent? Then Pharaoh's magicians threw down their rods and Satan turned them into serpents.
In fact, Satan turned several rods into serpents, as the scripture says, "they threw down..." Then God's serpent swallowed up Satan's serpents. This teaches us that the only power in the world greater than Satan's power is God's power. Satan's wisdom matches his power.
Ezekiel 28:17
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."
This is not referring to a loss of wisdom, but a redirected wisdom corrupted toward evil. Satan is not the fool some think he is, though I'm sure he wants us to believe that.
When I get to heaven, it won't surprise me in the least that an angel or someone there tells me that Satan has memorized the entire Holy Scripture word for word. He was here on earth walking to and fro seeking who he may devour at the time Scripture was being written, He's had thousands of years to do this. This is not possible for a human being, but Satan is not human.
Satan is many-fold times more intelligent than any human being, and he knows the Scripture like the back of his hand. You may find this illustration corny, and laughable, but Satan takes a handful of his fallen angels and says, see that guy right there, that's Moses, the man of God. I want to know everything he says, everything he writes, and everything he does, and report it to me. He did along the same lines with Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc., all the authors of the Old Testament.
He knew what was written in the original Scriptures before the ink dried!
You think Satan didn't know something was up when God told him in Gen 3:15, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and and her seed, it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel?" Of course he did.
How about when Moses said that a prophet would come from the midst of you, of your brethren like me, and Him you will listen. Did Satan miss that? I don't think so.
Do you think Satan missed Micah 5:2?
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." No, he did not, Satan knew the coming prophet would come out of Bethlehem.
How about Isaiah 7:14
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Not a chance Satan missed this!
Again, Isaiah 53:10
"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand." No way in God's earth did Satan not know this.
How could Satan not know that the promised Prophet was coming when John the Baptist was broadcasting it all over Israel? How could Satan not know that this Prophet would be the "offering for sin" as recorded in the previous verse?
How could Satan not know that Christ would be crucified and rise on the 3rd day, when Christ plainly told His disciples this in Scripture?
Who was it that entered into Judas Iscariot at the Last Supper that led him to betray Christ to be crucified? Of course Satan wanted Christ dead. He was clearly in the plot to put Christ to death, and he knew that on that Cross Christ would be that sacrifice for the sin of man.
The scholars present the only question that can be asked at this point. How was Satan going to stop this from happening? What was his plan?
Of course we don't know. Some say that Satan with all his power believed he could keep Christ in the tomb, which would have spoiled everything in God's plan. Others say Satan knew this would happen and he was trying everything he could do and any way he could do it to make Christ falter in some way.
I don't know what Satan was thinking, but I'm convinced he knew exactly what was happening. In his state of being deceived by his beauty and the strong will to be God, he just keeps believing he can make at least one prophecy of God incomplete, and win the victory over God.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
"The Eternal Sonship of Christ, or that He is the Son
of God by eternal generation, or that He was the Son
of God before He was the son of Mary, even from all
Eternity, which is denied by the Socinians, and others
akin, to them, was known by the saints under the Old
Testament;
by David (Ps. 2:7, 12);
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
by Solomon (Prov. 8:22, 30),
"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him."
For Jesus to have been rejoicing "always" means that there was no time that He wasn't Alive and rejoicing before God the Father.
by the prophet Micah, chapter 5, verse 2.
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
"His Sonship was known by Daniel, from whom it is
probable Nebuchadnezzar had it (Dan. 3:25),
"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
from which it appears He was, and was known to be, the
Son of God before He was born of the virgin, or before
His Incarnation, and therefore not called so just on the
account of Him being born of Mary."
From Gill on the Eternal Sonship of Christ
"The Deity of Christ may he next considered, and proved; or, that he is a divine Person, truly and properly God. Not a made or created God, as say the Arians. He was made flesh, and made of a woman; but not made God; for then he must make himself, which is absurd; since “without him was not anything made that was made; but all things were made by him” (John 1:3)..."
"1. First, From the names which are given to him; he has the same glorious names the most high God has; as Ejeh, I AM that I AM, (Ex. 3:14) to which our Lord refers, and takes to himself, (John 8:58) and Jehovah, which is incommunicable to a creature, and peculiar to the most High, (Ps. 83:18)..."
"2. Secondly, The Deity of Christ may be proved from the divine perfections he is possessed of; “for in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead”, (Col. 2:9) not one perfection of the divine nature excepted; or otherwise it could not be said, that all the fulness of Deity was in him..."
"3. Thirdly, The truth of Christ’s proper divinity may be proved from the works done by him; which are the same that are done by the Father; and in which he is a coefficient cause with him; and are done by him ομοιως, in like manner as by the Father, (John 5:17, 19) such as the creation of all things out of nothing; of the whole world and all things in it, visible or invisible, (John 1:2, 3; Col. 1:16) the making of the worlds, the heaven and the earth, are particularly ascribed to the Word and Son of God; and he that built all things is God, (Heb. 11:3, 1:10, 3:4) the work of providence, the government of the world, and the disposing of all things in it, Christ is jointly concerned in with the Father; “My Father worketh hitherto; and I work”, that is, with him (John 5:17)."
"4. Fourthly, As a further proof of the Deity of Christ, the worship given him both by angels and men may be observed; for when he, God’s firstborn, was brought into the world, he said, “Let all the angels of God worship him”, (Heb. 1:6) which order to the celestial inhabitants, would never have been given, if he was not God: it is also the declared will of the divine Father of Christ, “that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father”; that is, worship him with the same divine worship; which he would never have declared, who will not give his glory to another besides himself, was not Christ his Son the one God with him (see Ps. 2:12)...."
"...Prayer, another branch of religious worship, is often made to Christ; and that not by a single person only, as by Stephen, in his last moments, (Acts 7:59) but by whole churches and communities; who are said in every place to call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord; and how often are grace and peace wished for, by the apostles, as from God our Father, so from the Lord Jesus Christ? (1 Cor. 1:2, 3) all which would never be performed by saints, nor be admitted of by God, was not Christ truly and properly God; nor need we scruple to worship him, nor be fearful lest we should give him too much: and great encouragement we have to commit our souls, and the salvation of them into his hands, and trust him with our all; since he is God the only Saviour."
From John Gill: Doctrinal Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
No.
I always hate to see someone forming their Doctrinal beliefs on something like, "a British lady doctor." Don't you?
By being 100% God and 100% man.
Yes. Jesus had no sin nature or nature to ever possibly sin.
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
The womb.
"And it may be further observed, that the Father prepared a body, an human nature in his purpose, council and covenant, for another, and not for himself, even for his Son, as he acknowledges; “A body hast thou prepared me;” (Heb. 10:5)."
"...But the words are not to be understood of the descent of the human nature of Christ from heaven; but of his divine Person from thence; not by change of place, but by assumption of the human nature into union with him; by virtue of which union the man Christ has the name of the “Lord from heaven;” and not because of the original and descent of the human nature from thence; and in this sense, and in this sense only, are we to understand the words of Christ, when he says, “I came down from heaven” (John 6:38), namely, that he descended in and by the human nature; not by bringing it down from thence, but by taking it into union with his divine Person."
"2d1b. This conception was through the power and influence of the Holy Ghost, overshadowing the virgin. His operations in this affair may be considered in this manner, and after this order; He first took a part and portion of the virgin, of her semen, or blood, and conveyed it to a proper place; and purified and sanctified it, or separated it, not from any moral impurity, which it was not capable of, being an unformed mass; but from a natural indisposition in it, which, had it not been removed, might hereafter have occasioned sin; to prevent which this was done; and then he impregnated it with a fructifying virtue, and formed the members of the human body, in order, at once, and in a fitness (being properly organized) to receive the human soul; for to consider its immediate formation in such a state, is much more agreeable to the formation of the first man, more becoming the workmanship of the Holy Ghost, and more suitable to the dignity of the Son of God to assume it into union with himself, than to suppose it an unformed and unshapen embryo."
From John Gill: Doctrinal Divinity - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
To come to the point; it is the personal relations, or distinctive relative properties, which belong to each Person, which distinguish them one from another; as paternity in the first Person, filiation in the second, and spiration in the third; or, more plainly, it is “begetting”, (Ps. 2:7) which peculiarly belongs to the first, and is never ascribed to the second and third; which distinguishes him from them both; and gives him, with great propriety, the name of Father; and it is being “begotten”, that is the personal relation, or relative property of the second Person; hence called, “the only begotten of the Father”, (John 1:14) which distinguishes him from the first and third, and gives him the name of the Son; and the relative property, or personal relation of the third Person is, that he is breathed by the first and second Persons; hence called, the breath of the Almighty, the breath of the mouth of Jehovah the Father, and the breath of the mouth of Christ the Lord, and which is never said of the other two persons; and so distinguishes him from them, and very pertinently gives him the name of the Spirit, or breath (Job 33:4; Ps. 33:6; 2 Thess. 2:8).
Let’s investigate and see if we can possibly get a solid understanding of the Incarnation (birth) of Jesus Christ.
Yes, great topic for a thread!
1) First claim
Many churches teach that the Son of God (Jesus Christ) came down from heaven to be the Messiah, the Savior. But, this is just NOT true because Jesus was created (or formed) in Mary’s womb (on earth) … by God the Holy Spirit.
When we refer to Jesus, we are referring not only to the physical man born of Mary, but also God incarnate, rather than having a human spirit formed by God, He had the Divine Spirit of the Second Person of the Trinity.
2) Second claim (implied)
How did the Holy Spirit perform this “Immaculate Conception”?
Sadly the term "Immaculate Conception" carries the baggage of the claim Mary was sinless. This would be off topic, so I address Jesus being "sinless" when conceived. He was not made a sinner by any means, either spiritually or biologically.
3) Third claim (implied)
Possibility #1: the Holy Spirit provided the male sperm necessary
Possibility #2: the Holy Spirit “created” the fetus in Mary’s womb
These questions imply that the sin nature was passed to all humans biologically, rather than spiritually. Ask yourself how was "Eve" corrupted and given her "sin nature." Biologically or spiritually?
4) Fourth claim
God the Holy Spirit “created” Jesus
Yes, God biologically created the physical Jesus, but the spirit that gave Jesus life was God the Son.
No, Jesus was not called "the Son of God" because God created the physical body of Jesus, but rather because He is of the same Divine essence, and as God the Son carried out the will of God the Father.
5) Fifth claim (implied)
Did Jesus inherit man’s sin nature? If not, was He fully man?
If He did inherit the sin nature, how could Jesus be fully God?
Jesus was fully human physically and fully God spiritually.
6) Final Question
Since Jesus was fully God, would this "override" His "sin nature."
As before stated, Jesus did not have a sin nature, but certainly had all "fleshly desires" (avoidance of pain and seeking pleasure). Yes His faithful obedience to the will of His Father (and if born anew, our Father) overrode His inclinations to avoid suffering and loss of His life.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
No to #1.
Yes to #2
First, we must say all is speculation beyond what scripture states: God Holy Spirit created the fetus (Jesus) in Mary’s womb.
Personally, I don’t believe God used Mary’s DNA or anyone else’s. The fact she gave birth to a male child fulfills all prophecy concerning the “seed” of the woman and a descendent of David.
Please don’t apply modern understanding of genetics to scripture.
The child Jesus had no sin nature which had absolutely nothing to do with Mary and every thing to do with God.
Jesus is the second Adam. As Adam was created without sin, so was Jesus.
As Adam was tempted, and failed, Jesus was tempted and remained without sin. Was Jesus able to sin? From the perspective that He is fully human, yes. Otherwise such temptation is not really temptation is it?
From the perspective He is fully God, no, He was not able to sin.
This counters the second lie of Satan in the garden, that they would become like God knowing good and evil.
They did know good and evil, but unlike God, they were not able to always chose the good and avoid the evil. They simply realized their failure to obey and hid from God’s wrath.
Christ, as the second Adam, fully man, understood the good and the evil and always chose the good.
peace to you
Christ tells what he was thinking:
37 I know that ye are Abraham`s seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8
Pay attention here Charlie, consider that the children are like their father:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [Even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil.....Jn 8
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There is an odd passage that may be problematic with your conclusion. I say "odd" because I find it odd (it is difficult to understand how a demon would think, or the motivation).
In Matthew 8 we read of Jesus casting out demons. In verse 29 the demons "cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time'".
To me this seems to indicate that Satan and the demons do know their end.
James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe, and they shutter.
This means that there is another motive than defeating God for Satan. I understand that God uses Satan, and I believe we can understand what Satan is, but I do not know that we can understand Satan's motivations enough to form a definitive doctrine. I actually don't know that such a doctrine would be profitable.
I think the "I will's" of Satan pretty much sums it up. He wants to be God.
Isaiah 14:12-14
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
Of course Satan is not like God in power and wisdom, but contrary to popular belief, he's not far from it!
I agree. This is also what men often want as well (to be God).
On a side note, given the verse quoted.....it's neat how translations affect the world. "Lucifer" was a popular name at one time (popular among Christians as well). The KJV changed that. Nothing to do with the discussion.....just a side note. I always think of that when I read the verse in the KJV.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Please give scripture that supports this claim. Just because Satan desired to exhale himself as God, doesn’t reflect his ability to do so.
No sir, Satan is NOT “not far from it” concerning his power relative to God’s power and wisdom.
He is really strong, and really smart, and really fast. He may be more powerful than other demons and may equal power of Arch Angels, but he is not even a fly on the back of an elephant compared to God.
Peace to you
Of course he did. In the very next chapter, he (remember, he was a murderer from 'the beginning') killed Abel in his first attempt to 'devour the man-child'.
From 'the master of types' - A.W. Pink
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Satan is a created being, he doesn't have the divine attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence as God. But Satan has never been unconditionally unleashed by God either, he's kept on a leash you might say.
So how much power does Satan have? This is what we know from Scripture.
When God gave Satan the green light on Job, there was a condition, spare his life. Right here we see the leash, the limitation God placed on him.
Within a matter of minutes, Job's 10 children were dead, all his wealth was stripped, he was stricken with boils from the top of his head to the soles of his feet, left in the dirt with a potsherd in his hand scraping his sores, wishing he was dead.
God will take that leash off again in the Great Tribulation, and this time its on the entire world. Christ said this is the worst time the world has ever seen or ever will see. Satan will be at the helm of evil.
Just as God worked His power through Christ on the earth, Satan will work his power through the anti-Christ. Then the world will see the unlimited power of Satan. But even that is cut short as Christ said, or there would be no flesh that could survive. Satan has some very serious power and when the limitations are lifted, I believe it to be as devastating as God's power.