The Insanity of the "right" to have guns! II

[SavedByGrace]

Cook County Surpasses 1,000 Homicides For First Time Since 1994

 

[John of Japan]

Self defense is entirely Biblical. Note:

God is the One who gives strength to fight evil: "Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" (Ps. 144:1).

Abraham trained his servants to fight, then gave them weapons so that they could rescue his family members who were taken by evil men: "And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan" (Gen. 14:14).

Paul enjoyed the martial arts of the day: "For we wrestle [Greek pale, παλη, like modern freestyle] not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph 6:12). "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air" (1 Cor. 9:26--a training method of either the ancient Olympic boxing style, or the pankration--παγκράτιον--style, similar to modern MMA).

Jesus endorsed violently defending one's kingdom (the family of the OP): "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).

In fact, Jesus used a makeshift weapon to violently drive criminals from His Father's house: "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise" (John 2:15-16).

 

[John of Japan]

Look what Ezra did

Then I proclaimed a fast there, at the river Ahava, that we might humble ourselves before our God, to seek from him a safe journey for ourselves, our children, and all our goods. For I was ashamed to ask the king for a band of soldiers and horsemen to protect us against the enemy on our way, since we had told the king, “The hand of our God is for good on all who seek him, and the power of his wrath is against all who forsake him.” So we fasted and implored our God for this, and he listened to our entreaty. Then I set apart twelve of the leading priests: Sherebiah, Hashabiah, and ten of their kinsmen with them. And I weighed out to them the silver and the gold and the vessels, the offering for the house of our God that the king and his counselors and his lords and all Israel there present had offered. I weighed out into their hand 650 talents of silver, and silver vessels worth 200 talents, and 100 talents of gold, 20 bowls of gold worth 1,000 darics, and two vessels of fine bright bronze as precious as gold. And I said to them, “You are holy to the LORD, and the vessels are holy, and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering to the LORD, the God of your fathers. Guard them and keep them until you weigh them before the chief priests and the Levites and the heads of fathers’ houses in Israel at Jerusalem, within the chambers of the house of the LORD.” So the priests and the Levites took over the weight of the silver and the gold and the vessels, to bring them to Jerusalem, to the house of our God. Then we departed from the river Ahava on the twelfth day of the first month, to go to Jerusalem. The hand of our God was on us, and he delivered us from the hand of the enemy and from ambushes by the way. (8:21-31)

And a dozen years later, look what God's man Nehemiah did: "Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows" (Neh. 4:13).

"And God is able to make all grace [every favor and earthly blessing] come in abundance to you, so that you may always [under all circumstances, regardless of the need] have complete sufficiency in everything [being completely self-sufficient in Him], and have an abundance for every good work and act of charity" (2 Cor 9:8. Amp Bible)

Our God is VERY ABLE!

The question is not, "Is God able?" Of course He is, that goes without saying. The question is, does God want us to take care of and defend our families and homes. The answer is a resounding "Yes" according to the Scriptures I've given.

 

[Aaron]

I have continued this discussion, to put to those who are pro gun for everyone, this simple question

You and your family of say, 6, have a couple of guns, which you take with you wherever you go. You are being mugged by a gang of 10-15 heavily armed thugs, who murder as a living.

Exactly HOW will your TWO guns "save" or "protect", your family?

Do you choose to all die; or, will you call on the Might of our Great God?

I pack heat all the time. I and all who are around me are safer for it.

 

[kyredneck]

I pack heat all the time. I and all who are around me are safer for it.

Ditto.

 

[John of Japan]

Just thought I would throw this out there. I was a missionary to Japan for 33 years, and that country forbids gun ownership to ordinary citizens, a few are allowed to own them: farmers, hunters, competition shooters. I had a friend who was a competition shooter and had several weapons. The police came around occasionally and required accountability for every single bullet!

Here's the thing, though. Japan is an island nation with very secure borders. There is no way the US would be able to keep guns out of the hands of the criminals; its just the way our country is set up.

 

[SavedByGrace]

And a dozen years later, look what God's man Nehemiah did: "Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows" (Neh. 4:13).


The question is not, "Is God able?" Of course He is, that goes without saying. The question is, does God want us to take care of and defend our families and homes. The answer is a resounding "Yes" according to the Scriptures I've given.

Jesus Himself says

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Matthew 26:25

Looks like Jesus is saying to His Children, I am very much ABLE to protect you

As He also assures us:

"27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one" (John 10)

We are secure in our Great God.

Problem is, that the US has over the years, allowed everyone to own firearms, so that there are MILLIONS now in circulation!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Just thought I would throw this out there. I was a missionary to Japan for 33 years, and that country forbids gun ownership to ordinary citizens, a few are allowed to own them: farmers, hunters, competition shooters. I had a friend who was a competition shooter and had several weapons. The police came around occasionally and required accountability for every single bullet!

Here's the thing, though. Japan is an island nation with very secure borders. There is no way the US would be able to keep guns out of the hands of the criminals; its just the way our country is set up.

Interesting info. The US is too long open to people owing firearms, that it is now impossible to change any laws

Out of interest, are there any states where guns are harder to buy, or more strict?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Self defense is entirely Biblical. Note:

God is the One who gives strength to fight evil: "Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" (Ps. 144:1).

Abraham trained his servants to fight, then gave them weapons so that they could rescue his family members who were taken by evil men: "And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan" (Gen. 14:14).

Paul enjoyed the martial arts of the day: "For we wrestle [Greek pale, παλη, like modern freestyle] not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph 6:12). "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air" (1 Cor. 9:26--a training method of either the ancient Olympic boxing style, or the pankration--παγκράτιον--style, similar to modern MMA).

Jesus endorsed violently defending one's kingdom (the family of the OP): "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).

In fact, Jesus used a makeshift weapon to violently drive criminals from His Father's house: "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise" (John 2:15-16).

So, what do you make of Zechariah 4:6?

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts

Is this not against human weapons?

Paul says that our fight is spirtiual and not in the flesh, which seems to say no to arms?

 

[John of Japan]

Jesus Himself says

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Matthew 26:25

Actually, this is verse 52.

Greek great A. T. Robertson about this verse, from Robertson's NT Word Pictures): "Put up again thy sword (apostrepson tên machairan sou). Turn back thy sword into its place. It was a stern rebuke for Peter who had misunderstood the teaching of Jesus in Lu 22:38 as well as in Mt 5:39 (cf. Joh 18:36). The reason given by Jesus has had innumerable illustrations in human history. The sword calls for the sword. Offensive war is here given flat condemnation. The Paris Pact of 1928 (the Kellogg Treaty) is certainly in harmony with the mind of Christ. The will to peace is the first step towards peace, the outlawing of war. Our American cities are often ruled by gangsters who kill each other off."

Looks like Jesus is saying to His Children, I am very much ABLE to protect you

Again, that is not the question. No one here on this thread believes that God is unable to protect us. In fact, in my pamphlet on "A Christian Philosophy of Self Defense" I give several examples of people who witnessed to the bad guy and were let go.

As He also assures us:

"27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one" (John 10)

We are secure in our Great God.

This passage is talking about salvation, since it says specifically "eternal life." It is not being physically attacked. That should be obvious.

Problem is, that the US has over the years, allowed everyone to own firearms, so that there are MILLIONS now in circulation!

That's true. And there were millions of swords and spears in ancient Israel, but God did not tell David (or any other king) to take the weapons from the citizens. They were needed in case of defensive war.

 

[John of Japan]

Interesting info. The US is too long open to people owing firearms, that it is now impossible to change any laws

Out of interest, are there any states where guns are harder to buy, or more strict?

I'm sure there are, but that is outside of my purview.

 

[John of Japan]

So, what do you make of Zechariah 4:6?

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts

Is this not against human weapons?

Paul says that our fight is spirtiual and not in the flesh, which seems to say no to arms?

The Holy Spirit is our helper in spiritual warfare. In fact, in the context we have angel activity, putting the verse squarely in the spiritual arena. I've heard this verse preached many times as referring to power to serve the Lord, and I think that is the obvious and correct interpretation.

I've never thought of that verse as condemning self defense, and am surprised that you do.

 

[SavedByGrace]

"A Christian Philosophy of Self Defense" I give several examples of people who witnessed to the bad guy and were let go.

thanks for that, as it reminds me of the preacher, David Wilkerson, and his encounters with the gangs of New York, who threatened to kill him., His response was the POWER of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Nicky Cruz, and many others came to Jesus Christ without David having to use any "weapons", except his complete trust in Jesus!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Holy Spirit is our helper in spiritual warfare. In fact, in the context we have angel activity, putting the verse squarely in the spiritual arena. I've heard this verse preached many times as referring to power to serve the Lord, and I think that is the obvious and correct interpretation.

I've never thought of that verse as condemning self defense, and am surprised that you do.

It seems very clear to me, that the Lord is saying not to trust in human "might" and "power", but in Him. As Psalm 118:9, says

It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm sure there are, but that is outside of my purview.

ok thanks, I'll Google this

 

[John of Japan]

thanks for that, as it reminds me of the preacher, David Wilkerson, and his encounters with the gangs of New York, who threatened to kill him., His response was the POWER of the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Nicky Cruz, and many others came to Jesus Christ without David having to use any "weapons", except his complete trust in Jesus!

Well, absolutely. Anyone who draws a weapon while witnessing for Christ and serving Him is a spiritual idiot! When I witnessed to yakuza gangsters in Japan, I did not take along my pair of sai (a karate weapon).

However, if an intruder comes in my home and threatens my wife and me, I'm not going to stop to try to reason with him. I'll grab my sharpest sword (I have 3, but no guns) and defend us.

 

[John of Japan]

It seems very clear to me, that the Lord is saying not to trust in human "might" and "power", but in Him. As Psalm 118:9, says

It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes

This verse is hardly condemning self defense. You have not dealt with the Scriptures I gave endorsing self defense.

 

[SavedByGrace]

However, if an intruder comes in my home and threatens my wife and me, I'm not going to stop to try to reason with him. I'll grab my sharpest sword (I have 3, but no guns) and defend us.

how about asking the Lord to defend you and your family? I am sure that he will not fail.

There is a story somewhere in the Old Testament, where a godly King was out in battle, and he was surrounded by his enemies, and was outnumbered, and would have surely died. He cried out to the Lord, and the Lord delivered him. Not sure if I got this completely right

 

[SavedByGrace]

You have not dealt with the Scriptures I gave endorsing self defense

there are many in the OT, but I see none in the NT?

 

[SavedByGrace]

“It is not lawful for a Christian to bear arms for any earthly consideration.”
— Marcellus ~298 AD

“Under no circumstances should a true Christian draw the sword.”
— Tertullian 155-230 AD

“God wished iron to be used for the cultivation of the earth, and therefore it should not be used to take human life.”

— Cyprian ~250 AD

“The servants of God do not rely for their protection on material defenses but on the pine Providence.”

— Ambrose 338-397 AD

American Gun Violence and the Early Church on War and Violence | That Ancient Faith