...dispies and their most holy, sacred, precious, adored Golden Calf.... I believe if Christ Himself stood in the room and told them THERE IS NO DISTINCTION they would still bow to their idol.
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The Israel of God
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...dispies and their most holy, sacred, precious, adored Golden Calf.... I believe if Christ Himself stood in the room and told them THERE IS NO DISTINCTION they would still bow to their idol.
savedbymercy
New Member
National Israel is not the True Israel of God !
National Israel is not the True Israel of God and was not the Israel that God made His Gracious Covenant Promises to, for God does not make Gracious Promises to unbelievers, but to people of Faith ! Now the Israel which God made the Promises to is that Israel which is called a Remnant, a Remnant Israel, a small segment out of National Israel, a small few mostly comprised of ethnic jews which were of The Election of Grace, a small remnant, as mentioned here Isa 1:9
Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Outside of that very small remnant of the nation of israel, that nation was no more significant to God than sodom and gomorrah, who we know were not God's Chosen Israel !
Paul again mentions this very small remnant here Rom 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The remnant according to the Election of Grace is Israel Too ! Paul inidicates that here also Rom 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Remnant], which are of Israel[nationally]:
And of course Isaiah mentioned Remnant Israel in Isa 1:9, and its noteworthy that Isaiah identifies himself not with national israel, but with Remnant Israel that God Left ! Isa 9:6
6 For unto us[Remnant Israel The Church] a child is born, unto us[Remnant Israel] a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.478
National Israel is not the True Israel of God and was not the Israel that God made His Gracious Covenant Promises to, for God does not make Gracious Promises to unbelievers, but to people of Faith ! Now the Israel which God made the Promises to is that Israel which is called a Remnant, a Remnant Israel, a small segment out of National Israel, a small few mostly comprised of ethnic jews which were of The Election of Grace, a small remnant, as mentioned here Isa 1:9
Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Outside of that very small remnant of the nation of israel, that nation was no more significant to God than sodom and gomorrah, who we know were not God's Chosen Israel !
Paul again mentions this very small remnant here Rom 11:5
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The remnant according to the Election of Grace is Israel Too ! Paul inidicates that here also Rom 9:6
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Remnant], which are of Israel[nationally]:
And of course Isaiah mentioned Remnant Israel in Isa 1:9, and its noteworthy that Isaiah identifies himself not with national israel, but with Remnant Israel that God Left ! Isa 9:6
6 For unto us[Remnant Israel The Church] a child is born, unto us[Remnant Israel] a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.478
I was reminded of this thread today. During our family worship time, my wife and I read:
"Listen to another parable: There was a man, a landowner, who planted a vineyard, put a fence around it, dug a winepress in it, and built a watchtower. He leased it to tenant farmers and went away. When the grape harvest drew near, he sent his slaves to the farmers to collect his fruit. But the farmers took his slaves, beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Again, he sent other slaves, more than the first group, and they did the same to them. Finally, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.
"But when the tenant farmers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance! ' So they seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? "
"He will completely destroy those terrible men," they told Him, "and lease his vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at the harvest."
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit. Whoever falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whoever it falls, it will grind him to powder!"
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they knew He was speaking about them. - Mat 21:33-45 HCSB
"Listen to another parable: There was a man, a landowner, who planted a vineyard, put a fence around it, dug a winepress in it, and built a watchtower. He leased it to tenant farmers and went away. When the grape harvest drew near, he sent his slaves to the farmers to collect his fruit. But the farmers took his slaves, beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Again, he sent other slaves, more than the first group, and they did the same to them. Finally, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.
"But when the tenant farmers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance! ' So they seized him, threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? "
"He will completely destroy those terrible men," they told Him, "and lease his vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at the harvest."
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This came from the Lord and is wonderful in our eyes?
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit. Whoever falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whoever it falls, it will grind him to powder!"
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they knew He was speaking about them. - Mat 21:33-45 HCSB
Protestant
Well-Known Member
The number of scriptural proofs (including parables) which unequivocally teach that the Israel of God – true Israel – is comprised solely of those elect, Jew and Gentile, who have been regenerated by the Spirit, whose hearts have been circumcised, whose faith rests and trusts in the finished work of Christ…….is overwhelming.
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one [Jew and Gentile] which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one [Jew and Gentile] which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Or in Acts, when peter stated that if national Isreal wouyld have received jesus then, the Messianic age would have got ushered in, but God used their blindness to allow Gentiles have jesus as messiah to, but God has NOT forgotten his people!
Where?
No he has not forgotten the elect from all nations.
You do understand that the parable I quotd early points out that apostate Israel is rejected and the kingdom is given to another nation (the church) which will bring forth the fruit of the kingdom?
The Church in this prsent Age is what the Lord is working in and thru, but when Christ returns, there shall be a Kingdom for national Isreal alive at that time!
No.
Again, where in Acts does Peter say "that if national Isreal wouyld have received jesus then, the Messianic age would have got ushered in"?
savedbymercy
New Member
National Israel is not the True Israel of God ! 2
Lets look again at Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Now who in their right mind can deny that the Apostle, under Divine Inspiration makes a distinction of the Two Israel's Rom 9:6 here ! Obvious there is a National Israel and a Remnant Israel, the Remnant Israel is the small remnant of jews in National israel , and here in this verse, the Election Israel contrary to the nation of israel obtained and or received the Promises, which Paul states here:
"but the election hath obtained it"
And for the nation :
"the rest were blinded"
Now in the original the greek definite article hoi is in the nomitive case and its masculine :
τί οὖν ὃ ἐπιζητεῖ Ἰσραήλ τούτου οὐκ ἐπέτυχεν ἡ δὲ ἐκλογὴ ἐπέτυχεν οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ ἐπωρώθησαν
So it definitly modifies the words the rest that were blinded, which is also nomitive masculine, which would indicate to us that the rest did represent the nation as a whole, was distinct from the small remnant of election in it; In fact because the nation or the rest were not of God's elect, God gave them over to blindness and reprobation as stated in Vs 8
According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
So God purposely withheld Faith from them, since Faith cometh by Hearing !
God withheld from them the Faith of the Elect ! Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Because they were not elect Israel !
Lets look again at Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Now who in their right mind can deny that the Apostle, under Divine Inspiration makes a distinction of the Two Israel's Rom 9:6 here ! Obvious there is a National Israel and a Remnant Israel, the Remnant Israel is the small remnant of jews in National israel , and here in this verse, the Election Israel contrary to the nation of israel obtained and or received the Promises, which Paul states here:
"but the election hath obtained it"
And for the nation :
"the rest were blinded"
Now in the original the greek definite article hoi is in the nomitive case and its masculine :
τί οὖν ὃ ἐπιζητεῖ Ἰσραήλ τούτου οὐκ ἐπέτυχεν ἡ δὲ ἐκλογὴ ἐπέτυχεν οἱ δὲ λοιποὶ ἐπωρώθησαν
So it definitly modifies the words the rest that were blinded, which is also nomitive masculine, which would indicate to us that the rest did represent the nation as a whole, was distinct from the small remnant of election in it; In fact because the nation or the rest were not of God's elect, God gave them over to blindness and reprobation as stated in Vs 8
According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
So God purposely withheld Faith from them, since Faith cometh by Hearing !
God withheld from them the Faith of the Elect ! Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Because they were not elect Israel !
savedbymercy
New Member
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel !
Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Listen, did you know not one promise of God to Israel has failed , even in light of national israels, Abraham's physical blood descendants, have been rejected, the fact is, mostly the whole world practically is deceived and think that God's Israel is that physical genealogical natural seed of Abraham over in the middle east, but they are deceived, The True People of God Israel is, has been, and always will be People of Faith, that is the Faith of Christ, and God has not and never will make Promises to faithless People; For God makes Promises to only those He has given His Spirit to, so that they can believe, and very few qualified in national israel, in fact God called them a people with no Faith Deut 32:20
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
That means they were not the Children of God because Faith characterizes the who ? Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
So thats why Paul could say of national israel as a whole, Abraham's physical descendants this Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
See, you cannot be of the flesh and of the Faith at the same time !
Even the greater majority of them that came out of egypt under moses, of them only a handful few believed God's word of promise, and those that did were God's Israel !
Listen carefully, what makes One True Israel, whom the Promises of God pertain to ? Its being in Christ, God's Firstborn Son, He is the True Israel of God, for this was adumbrated here with national israel Ex 4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Hint, We know this cannot be the children of the flesh Rom 9:8 ! But Jesus Christ, The True Firstborn Son of God in antitype and substance Col 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn[Son] of every creature:
Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Listen, so Israel was Chosen in God's Firstborn Son Israel before the foundation of the World Eph 1:4 ! All the Promises made to Israel, was not the literial physical nation israel, but the Spiritual Israel of God Chosen In The Firstborn Son Israel Gal 6:16
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.480
Rom 9:6
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Listen, did you know not one promise of God to Israel has failed , even in light of national israels, Abraham's physical blood descendants, have been rejected, the fact is, mostly the whole world practically is deceived and think that God's Israel is that physical genealogical natural seed of Abraham over in the middle east, but they are deceived, The True People of God Israel is, has been, and always will be People of Faith, that is the Faith of Christ, and God has not and never will make Promises to faithless People; For God makes Promises to only those He has given His Spirit to, so that they can believe, and very few qualified in national israel, in fact God called them a people with no Faith Deut 32:20
And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
That means they were not the Children of God because Faith characterizes the who ? Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
So thats why Paul could say of national israel as a whole, Abraham's physical descendants this Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
See, you cannot be of the flesh and of the Faith at the same time !
Even the greater majority of them that came out of egypt under moses, of them only a handful few believed God's word of promise, and those that did were God's Israel !
Listen carefully, what makes One True Israel, whom the Promises of God pertain to ? Its being in Christ, God's Firstborn Son, He is the True Israel of God, for this was adumbrated here with national israel Ex 4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Hint, We know this cannot be the children of the flesh Rom 9:8 ! But Jesus Christ, The True Firstborn Son of God in antitype and substance Col 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn[Son] of every creature:
Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Listen, so Israel was Chosen in God's Firstborn Son Israel before the foundation of the World Eph 1:4 ! All the Promises made to Israel, was not the literial physical nation israel, but the Spiritual Israel of God Chosen In The Firstborn Son Israel Gal 6:16
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.480
"God knows who are his."
It is sufficient to me that God, knows : even though I, may not.
It is sufficient to me that God, knows : even though I, may not.
savedbymercy
New Member
Who is Israel ?
The Israel of God is all and everyone God has preserved or reserved for Himself out of the mass of mankind Rom 11:4-5
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Yes thats the Israel that receives the promises of God to Israel, its always a reserved remnant of the Election of Grace, whether they be jew or Gentile !
The same Truthis taught here Jer 50:20
20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
Now that this reserved remnant also applied to Gentiles is seen here Acts 15:17
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Compare the word here residue to the word reserve in Jer 50:20 and remnant in Rom 11:5
The word reserve in Jer 50:20 is sha'ar :
The word remnant is Rom 11:5 leimma :
Acts 15:17 the word residue kataloipos :
And so that would qualify the remnant or residue of Gentiles to be classified with remnant Israel and Judah of Jer 50:20, and so we have the Lord's Israel, all people whom He reserves out of mankind from amongst the jews and the Gentiles !482
The Israel of God is all and everyone God has preserved or reserved for Himself out of the mass of mankind Rom 11:4-5
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Yes thats the Israel that receives the promises of God to Israel, its always a reserved remnant of the Election of Grace, whether they be jew or Gentile !
The same Truthis taught here Jer 50:20
20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
Now that this reserved remnant also applied to Gentiles is seen here Acts 15:17
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Compare the word here residue to the word reserve in Jer 50:20 and remnant in Rom 11:5
The word reserve in Jer 50:20 is sha'ar :
The word remnant is Rom 11:5 leimma :
Acts 15:17 the word residue kataloipos :
And so that would qualify the remnant or residue of Gentiles to be classified with remnant Israel and Judah of Jer 50:20, and so we have the Lord's Israel, all people whom He reserves out of mankind from amongst the jews and the Gentiles !482
savedbymercy
New Member
Who is Israel ? 2
Previously we showed how Israel is the remnant out of mankind, regardgless of race, a remnant out of the jews and a remnant out of the Gentiles, its a remnant not based upon race but of Grace Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Now we want to show that Israel, are all the ones God predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son Israel, remember when God said this Ex 4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
That was a Type of Christ, God's Firstborn Son, Christ, So Christ the Antitype is Israel, and all who belong to Christ/ Israel have been predestinated to be conformed to His Image, Per Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
See those words Firstborn Son ? Thats the Antitype to Ex 4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Now its certain that I have a basis scripturally to Identify Israel as those predestinated to the Image of Christ, who is Israel God's Firstborn Son , and its also for a certain that God states that its those who are foreknown by Him that are Truly His People Israel Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people[Israel] which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Which are the same as the Predestinated Rom 8:29,33
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Which are His Elect Vs 33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Also, We know that Israel God's Firstborn Son in Ex 4:22 could not be referring to national israel according to the flesh, because it is written of them Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So Israel according to the flesh could not have been the Type in Ex 4:22, it had to be the remnant Israel that was amongst them that had been Chosen in Christ, The True Israel Firstborn Son before the foundation Eph 1:4-5 !
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Previously we showed how Israel is the remnant out of mankind, regardgless of race, a remnant out of the jews and a remnant out of the Gentiles, its a remnant not based upon race but of Grace Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Now we want to show that Israel, are all the ones God predestinated to be conformed to the Image of His Son Israel, remember when God said this Ex 4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
That was a Type of Christ, God's Firstborn Son, Christ, So Christ the Antitype is Israel, and all who belong to Christ/ Israel have been predestinated to be conformed to His Image, Per Rom 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
See those words Firstborn Son ? Thats the Antitype to Ex 4:22
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Now its certain that I have a basis scripturally to Identify Israel as those predestinated to the Image of Christ, who is Israel God's Firstborn Son , and its also for a certain that God states that its those who are foreknown by Him that are Truly His People Israel Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people[Israel] which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Which are the same as the Predestinated Rom 8:29,33
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Which are His Elect Vs 33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Also, We know that Israel God's Firstborn Son in Ex 4:22 could not be referring to national israel according to the flesh, because it is written of them Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
So Israel according to the flesh could not have been the Type in Ex 4:22, it had to be the remnant Israel that was amongst them that had been Chosen in Christ, The True Israel Firstborn Son before the foundation Eph 1:4-5 !
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
It is my personal belief that Replacement Theology, is a heresy, that is that the "Church" has replaced Israel. That "theology" or concept started with the RCC. It has a history of antisemitism, and was used for that purpose--a doctrine of hatred.
The Muslims also believe in Replacement Theology. They believe that they will first, overcome Israel, and then second, that they will defeat Christianity. Christianity will be replaced by Islam.
Perhaps that is a bit of a red herring, but nevertheless somewhat connected.
Either way, it is not biblical.
Ephesians two teaches that the saved Jew and the saved Gentile are one in Christ. 2Cor.5 teaches the same truth. In fact all throughout the Bible we have this truth: Romans 2 and in Galatians as well. Jew and Gentile are one in Christ. But Israel still exists.
Israel still exists as much as Islam exists. When a Muslim, even an Arab, becomes a Christian he leaves his Islamic faith behind him, and is now a Christian. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Christ. It is not through Judaism or Islam; it is through Christ. A man may have a background or be an ethnic Jew but he will still be a Christian. He may be an ethnic Arab but still be a Christian. He leaves his religion behind.
In the time of Paul:
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--The Jews or Israel still existed. Paul delineates these three groups:
1. Israel.
2. Gentiles.
3. The Church.
--All three existed side by side.
Also take into consideration:
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--Paul's burden for the Israelites to be saved was so great that he wishes or prays that he himself could take their place in eternal damnation that they may be with God rather than he. What love is expressed here. It is beyond our comprehension.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
--Very succinctly put is that he desired Israel to be saved.
If Israel is the Church this prayer makes no sense. But Israel does exist, and still exists.
When Jews and Gentiles are saved they are one in Christ. Their former religions still exist. Israel still exists. The promises made to Israel still exist. Those promises are still to the nation of Israel, not to us.
"So then all Israel shall be saved."
--That is to the nation of Israel, not to us. It is future.
The Muslims also believe in Replacement Theology. They believe that they will first, overcome Israel, and then second, that they will defeat Christianity. Christianity will be replaced by Islam.
Perhaps that is a bit of a red herring, but nevertheless somewhat connected.
Either way, it is not biblical.
Ephesians two teaches that the saved Jew and the saved Gentile are one in Christ. 2Cor.5 teaches the same truth. In fact all throughout the Bible we have this truth: Romans 2 and in Galatians as well. Jew and Gentile are one in Christ. But Israel still exists.
Israel still exists as much as Islam exists. When a Muslim, even an Arab, becomes a Christian he leaves his Islamic faith behind him, and is now a Christian. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Christ. It is not through Judaism or Islam; it is through Christ. A man may have a background or be an ethnic Jew but he will still be a Christian. He may be an ethnic Arab but still be a Christian. He leaves his religion behind.
In the time of Paul:
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
--The Jews or Israel still existed. Paul delineates these three groups:
1. Israel.
2. Gentiles.
3. The Church.
--All three existed side by side.
Also take into consideration:
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--Paul's burden for the Israelites to be saved was so great that he wishes or prays that he himself could take their place in eternal damnation that they may be with God rather than he. What love is expressed here. It is beyond our comprehension.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
--Very succinctly put is that he desired Israel to be saved.
If Israel is the Church this prayer makes no sense. But Israel does exist, and still exists.
When Jews and Gentiles are saved they are one in Christ. Their former religions still exist. Israel still exists. The promises made to Israel still exist. Those promises are still to the nation of Israel, not to us.
"So then all Israel shall be saved."
--That is to the nation of Israel, not to us. It is future.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Recken you could post that Scripture!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
In 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 we read:
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am not sure whether the pre-trib-dispensationalists consider this the Rapture or the coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the great seven year tribulation. Whatever, it seems to me that the Apostle is saying that after Jesus Christ returns the resurrection will occur and there will be no more death.
Notice also he says: 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. then goes on to talk about the resurrection body being immortal and incorruptible. So is the Kingdom of God 1000 years on this present fallen earth or eternity in the New Heavens and New earth?
50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am not sure whether the pre-trib-dispensationalists consider this the Rapture or the coming of Jesus Christ at the end of the great seven year tribulation. Whatever, it seems to me that the Apostle is saying that after Jesus Christ returns the resurrection will occur and there will be no more death.
Notice also he says: 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. then goes on to talk about the resurrection body being immortal and incorruptible. So is the Kingdom of God 1000 years on this present fallen earth or eternity in the New Heavens and New earth?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I never hear anyone talk about Replacement Theology but pre-trib-dispensationalists. The Church does not replace National Israel. National fulfilled their task in God's purpose to redeem His people when they conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus Christ. The Church is simply a continuation of "True Israel" the believing remnant of the Old Testament, those like the 7000 that God had reserved to Himself who had not bowed the knee to Baal! {1 Kings 19:18; Romans 11:4}
I love that story. Elijah was having himself a pity party as we all often do and God had to chasten him a little!
I think you are playing a game of semantics.
I don't find much difference in the two.
The church replaced Israel.
The church is a continuation of Israel.
The church is Israel.
Israel is the church.
The church is found in the OT.
The OT covenant of Israel continues in the church today.
They all say the same thing just packaged in different words perhaps made to be a bit more palatable to the unsuspecting.
The fact is: Israel still exists today entirely apart from the Church.
The Church is not Israel, has nothing to do with Israel.
Israel, today as a nation, will someday be saved. Perhaps not all Israel, but a remnant will believe and be saved. That has nothing to do with the believers or gentiles of today or of the future. It has to do with the nation of Israel alone.
The "covenants and promises" are given to Israel. That verse still applies to Israel. It doesn't apply to you.
- Status