The Israel of God

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You are saying Israel is not Israel of God though they had the Spirit of Christ in them (1 Peter 1:11) , only gentile and jewish believers of NT are Israel, right?

Then do you believe 12 tribes of Re 7, 144, 000 are NT believers?

Eliyahu

ALL True Believers in ALL times in ALL places ever in the Name of the Only True God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ were <<NT believers>>.

No covenant than the New Covenant of God's grace in Jesus Christ ever saved. God never had two covenants. His Covenant is "THE EVERLASTING COVENANT OF GRACE".

The 'old covenant' is alive this day as ever --- as MAN'S promise and undertaking and assurance to DO THE WORKS OF THE LAW. Which has always been only MAN'S vanity.

 

[Greektim]

Here are a couple of good articles to read from the journals of SBTS and SEBTS by esteemed scholars arguing for Gentile inclusion in the phrase "Israel of God".

http://www.sbts.edu/resources/files/2010/10/sbjt-v14-n3_cowan.pdf

www.biblicalfoundations.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/23-Israel-in-Galatians-6.pdf

 

[Eliyahu]

ALL True Believers in ALL times in ALL places ever in the Name of the Only True God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ were <<NT believers>>.

No covenant than the New Covenant of God's grace in Jesus Christ ever saved. God never had two covenants. His Covenant is "THE EVERLASTING COVENANT OF GRACE".

The 'old covenant' is alive this day as ever --- as MAN'S promise and undertaking and assurance to DO THE WORKS OF THE LAW. Which has always been only MAN'S vanity.

You may have thought that NT believers were saved by believing in Jesus Christ, but OT believers were by keeping theLaw.

However nobody in human history was saved by keeping the Law.
Moses believed in Christ ( Heb 11:26, John 5:46) OT Saints had the Spirit of Christ in them (1Peter 1:11).

The OT saints were saved by believing the LORD as in Exodus 14: 31
We are the descendants of Abraham(Gal 3:7)

Do you think We the NT believers can be 12 tribes of Re 21:12 while Abraham and Jacob cannot be in 12 tribes of Israel ?


Eliyahu

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You may have thought that NT believers were saved by believing in Jesus Christ, but OT believers were by keeping theLaw.

However nobody in human history was saved by keeping the Law.
Moses believed in Christ ( Heb 11:26, John 5:46) OT Saints had the Spirit of Christ in them (1Peter 1:11).

The OT saints were saved by believing the LORD as in Exodus 14: 31
We are the descendants of Abraham(Gal 3:7)

Do you think We the NT believers can be 12 tribes of Re 21:12 while Abraham and Jacob cannot be in 12 tribes of Israel ?


Eliyahu

Ja?!

What's your name?

El-i-Yahu? "The Mighty God I-AM-WHO-I-AM"?

And you never knew He, ""The Mighty God I-AM-WHO-I-AM" is Jesus of Nazareth the Christ of God?!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here are a couple of good articles to read from the journals of SBTS and SEBTS by esteemed scholars arguing for Gentile inclusion in the phrase "Israel of God".

http://www.sbts.edu/resources/files/2010/10/sbjt-v14-n3_cowan.pdf

www.biblicalfoundations.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/23-Israel-in-Galatians-6.pdf

Except for the truth though that God has made it qute clear that isreal and the church are not the same entity to Him!

 

[Protestant]

Except for the truth though that God has made it qute clear that isreal and the church are not the same entity to Him!

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Yeshua1]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Paul and Jesus saw a clear distinction between them though.....

 

[OldRegular]

Except for the truth though that God has made it qute clear that isreal and the church are not the same entity to Him!

Where O' where?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where O' where?

Jesus stated that he was going to bring both Jews/Gentile together in One new Body, and paul had the revelation from him that it was the Church, something that the OT prophets were not permitted to see and understand by God under the Old covenant!

 

[One Baptism]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

A true statement, and though not directly found in Scripture, it is principally there, none-the-less:

Many Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, etc chose to not see, spiritually, even though they had eyes that were not physically blind.

John 9:39 - And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

John 9:40 - And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

John 9:41 - Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Romans 2:19 - And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

It is very dangerous to choose to not see the Truth and Light when it comes to us:

Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Many, love to remain blind, and in darkness, rather that accept the Truth and Light.

John 1:5 - And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

1 John 2:9 - He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 2:11 - But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Ye, we as Christians, called out of darkness, out of blindness, into seeing the Truth and Light, ought not ever be as such:

John 8:12 - Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 12:35 - Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

John 12:46 - I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Isaiah 9:2 - The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Isaiah 42:7 - To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isaiah 50:10 - Who [is] among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh [in] darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

Matthew 4:16 - The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Luke 1:79 - To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Yet, Scripture records of those that turn away from the Truth and Light:

Matthew 6:23 - But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

And this is recorded in the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 28:29 - And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save [thee].

Psalm 82:5 - They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Ecclesiastes 2:14 - The wise man's eyes [are] in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.

Isaiah 59:9 - Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, [but] we walk in darkness.

And so these 'religious' men, were willfully blind, choosing not to see, nor hear:

John 10:26 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

For it is written that:

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

 

[One Baptism]

A true statement, and though not directly found in Scripture, it is principally there, none-the-less:

Many Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, etc chose to not see, spiritually, even though they had eyes that were not physically blind....

Yet they, the so-called holy 'religious' leaders, lifted up in self-righteousness, pride, vanity, the worthless 'traditions of men/elders', which negated the Commandments of God, and so they were unclean vessels, who chose to remain in darkness, being blind leaders of the blind, and so, like them of old, there are many of today also, and they stumble, being unable to see through their corrupt and cursed wine (both in physical (alcohol, intoxication) and spiritual (false doctrine/teachings), of whom Babylon the Great uses both), and because those leaders stumble in darkness, being blind, they lead their congregations into the same "ditch", who is that "whore" of Revelation 17, along with all her unclean and harlot "daughters":

Isaiah 59:10 - We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if [we had] no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; [we are] in desolate places as dead [men].

Isaiah 28:1 - Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isaiah 28:2 - Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, [which] as a tempest of hail [and] a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Isaiah 28:3 - The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Isaiah 28:4 - And the glorious beauty, which [is] on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, [and] as the hasty fruit before the summer; which [when] he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.

Isaiah 28:5 - In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

Isaiah 28:6 - And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

Isaiah 28:7 - But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble [in] judgment.

Isaiah 28:8 - For all tables are full of vomit [and] filthiness, [so that there is] no place [clean].

So, being drunken with corruption in both physical and spiritual things, they being blind, lead the blind into the "ditch":

Matthew 15:14 - Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Luke 6:39 - And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

There are physical ditches and spiritual ditches:

1 Corinthians 15:46 - Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

See:

Proverbs 23:27 - For a whore [is] a deep ditch; and a strange woman [is] a narrow pit.

And that "deep ditch", that "Whore" of Revelation 17, is the Anti-Christ system, Roman Catholicism, even the Papacy, that corrupted Church/State combination which makes all nations drunken, having many harlot daughters, she being their Mother, and who commits whoredom with the Kings (rulers) of other nations:

Revelation 17:1 - And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:2 - With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelation 17:3 - So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Revelation 17:4 - And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Revelation 17:5 - And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 17:6 - And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

And all who choose to be blind, even though they could have the Truth and Light if they wanted, are unwilling to see or hear, and choose instead to partake of her false ways, false and corrupt wine (physical and spiritual), even accepting her false doctrines, who attempts to masquerade them as Truth.

Her false doctrines, are many... even as her daughters are, and so many cling to those doctrines, pretending as if they can support them from Scripture. They refuse to come out of her, her ways, her practices, her doctrines...

Even they themselves will persecute those who bring the Truth to them, all the while being self-deceived, that they do it in the name and honour of God:

John 16:2 - They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Truly, what great self-inflicted darkness, even though they could have the Truth and Light, and because so, God sends them strong delusion to believe instead the lie.

Deuteronomy 29:4 - Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Psalm 69:23 - Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

Ezekiel 12:2 - Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Thessalonians 2:12 - That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is not too late for repentance, though it will not be much longer:

Revelation 3:18 - I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[One Baptism]

According to Scripture, then as we have already noted, that Jesus Christ Himself is the True Israel:

Hosea 11:1 - When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

This passage is directly cited by the Gospel of Matthew and clearly stated that it was "fulfilled" in Christ Jesus:

Matthew 2:13 - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matthew 2:14 - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Matthew 2:15 - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The name "Israel" is a Spiritual name, not a Physical one. Consider the origin of it to begin with:

Genesis 32:28 - And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

This is given twice, for a witness:

Genesis 35:10 - And God said unto him, Thy name [is] Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Yet, notice, that since Christ Jesus is "Israel", who then are His "children" (Exodus 31:13; see also Isaiah 56:1-8 (carefully) along with John 10:16, etc)? Scripture declares it:

Hebrews 2:10 - For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 2:11 - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Notice again from the New Testament in the same place, and from where it draws from in the Old Testament:

Hebrews 2:13 - And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

This is directly citing Isaiah 8, please notice carefully:

Isaiah 8:10 - Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God [is] with us.

Isaiah 8:11 - For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,

Isaiah 8:12 - Say ye not, A confederacy, to all [them to] whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Isaiah 8:13 - Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and [let] him [be] your fear, and [let] him [be] your dread.

Isaiah 8:14 - And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:15 - And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

Isaiah 8:16 - Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Isaiah 8:17 - And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

Isaiah 8:18 - Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me [are] for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Notice, that the entire context is speaking about Jesus Christ, the "God with us", and his ["my"] "disciples", even the "children whom the LORD [Father] hath given me [Jesus]", and that the "testimony" and the "Law" of God, the Ten Commandments, were to be "sealed" [by the Holy Spirit] "among" them.

See John 17, but also:

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

and, notice the fulfillment of the "my disciples" of Isaiah 8:

Matthew 26:18 - And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Mark 14:14 - And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:11 - And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

John 8:31 - Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;

John 13:35 - By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 15:8 - Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 13:33 - Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

All of the Promises of God, are only "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ Jesus, and in no other:

2 Corinthians 1:20 - For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The True Olive Tree of Romans 11, is Christ Jesus Himself, and this may be seen from many further texts.

We can then see what a True Israelite is when we begin to look a little further.

The physical Jew, has no hope, except in coming to, accepting and believing on Christ Jesus, for it is written of them:

Matthew 21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Luke 13:35 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until [the time] come when ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 3:10 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 3:9 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mark 11:14 - And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard [it].

Mark 11:20 - And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

Romans 9:6 - Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The "Israel of God", is not the "Israel after the flesh":

1 Corinthians 10:18 - Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

Galatians 6:16 - And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

For one to be an "Israelite indeed", they must accept Jesus Christ:

John 1:47 - Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

John 1:48 - Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

John 1:49 - Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

 

[One Baptism]

The "Church" of the ancient wilderness, with Moses (Acts 7:38), continues with those that accepted/believed on Jesus Christ, for notice "the Woman" of Revelation 12, for she first gives birth to the Messiah, and yet continues from there into the long history of persecution which followed the ascension of Jesus Christ.

Those of the Church in the ancient wilderness who continued to believe on Him [Simeon and Anna, John the Baptist, Mary, Joseph, etc], remained in the True Olive Tree, and then those amongst the Gentiles and nations who have since then come to believe in Him; like the Magi, etc] were grafted into Him.

Those who were faithful among the Jews (like Peter, James, John, Apostles, Disciples who continued with Him (Jesus), like Mary, Martha, etc...), or became so [Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, certain rulers, later Paul, etc.], continued to be of Israel, and while others who were unfaithful and unbelieving [many Pharisees, Saducees, scribes, leaders, Caiphas, Judas, etc] were those Branches that were cut off and out of Israel (Jesus, that True Tree) (and many claimed to be physically descended from Abraham, etc, but Christ Jesus clearly said that this is not what counts... "think not to say within yourselves...", and the Parable of the Rich Man And Lazarus is also directly pointing this out, it is a matter of "faith", not bloodline.), while those of the Gentiles who came to believe and have faith in Christ Jesus (Israel), they were "grafted into" Him (like Luke, whole cities, Cornelius and his household, etc).

What of the Temple?

1 Corinthians 3:9 - For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 - If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:6 - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 2:21 - In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

1 Peter 2:5 - Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:12 - Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

(See also 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

Revelatoin 11:19 - And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament : and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Jesus own "Body" is the Temple:

But he spake of the temple of his body. - John 2:21

See also the True Heavenly Temple - Exodus 25:40, 26:30, 27:8; Hebrews 8:5, 9:23; Revelation 11:19 and so on.

All those looking for a new physical Temple to be built in the land of Palestine/Judea in war-torn earthly Jerusalem, have followed cunningly devised fables of Romanism, through the Jesuit Futurist propaganda and counter-reformation theology, of the likes of Manuel De Lacunza, Francisco Ribera, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, etc. Do not believe me? It is documentable and traceable to them.

 

[Protestant]

All those looking for a new physical Temple to be built in the land of Palestine/Judea in war-torn earthly Jerusalem, have followed cunningly devised fables of Romanism, through the Jesuit Futurist propaganda and counter-reformation theology, of the likes of Manuel De Lacunza, Francisco Ribera, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, etc. Do not believe me? It is documentable and traceable to them.

What you say is very true.

I do hope you are not 7th-day Adventist.

Although they have much truthful historical information concerning the fulfillment of prophecy in the Church of Rome and Papacy, they are in dire error in too many other substantive biblical teachings.

Thus, they are not to be trusted in the most important area of all: salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

What you say is very true.

I do hope you are not 7th-day Adventist.

Although they have much truthful historical information concerning the fulfillment of prophecy in the Church of Rome and Papacy, they are in dire error in too many other substantive biblical teachings.

Thus, they are not to be trusted in the most important area of all: salvation.

Except that John and paul boh taught that there was a man yet to come, a final Antichrist, who will cause the while world to worship hum as God, save for those chosen out by God...

And the SDA is a Culy, same as JW/Mormonism!

 

[Protestant]

Except that John and paul boh taught that there was a man yet to come, a final Antichrist, who will cause the while world to worship hum as God, save for those chosen out by God...

And the SDA is a Culy, same as JW/Mormonism!

You have been blinded by the false prophets of Roman Catholicism whose followers are now the false prophets of evangelical Christianity.

One Baptism is 100% correct.

As are the millions of true Christians, Baptists included, who died identifying Mystery Babylon and her Papal Antichrist.

 

[Yeshua1]

You have been blinded by the false prophets of Roman Catholicism whose followers are now the false prophets of evangelical Christianity.

One Baptism is 100% correct.

As are the millions of true Christians, Baptists included, who died identifying Mystery Babylon and her Papal Antichrist.

The Antichrist/Beast yet to come will be a world wide ruler, military/govt leader, while the false prophet will head up apostate Christianity, that would be the role for the Papacy!

 

[One Baptism]

Except that John and paul boh taught that there was a man yet to come, a final Antichrist, who will cause the while world to worship hum as God, save for those chosen out by God...

See here, for some more details on this: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2211107&postcount=1

 

[One Baptism]

All those looking for a new physical Temple to be built in the land of Palestine/Judea in war-torn earthly Jerusalem, have followed cunningly devised fables of Romanism, through the Jesuit Futurist propaganda and counter-reformation theology, of the likes of Manuel De Lacunza, Francisco Ribera, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, etc. Do not believe me? It is documentable and traceable to them.

What you say is very true. ...

Yes, it is true, not because I say so, but because it is demonstrated easily in several ways, for instance, one site reveals in cited detail - http://www.biblelight.net/antichrist.htm or its duplicate http://aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

One may find those Jesuit names, listed clearly under the Wikipedia article, "List of Jesuits" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jesuits

Wikipedia (though not the best source, but still helpful), says on its article Futurism (Christianity), "During the Middle Ages and before the Protestant Reformation futurist interpretations were virtually non-existent. ...

... The futurist view was first proposed by two Catholic Jesuit writers, Manuel Lacunza and Francisco Ribera. Lacunza wrote under the pen name "Ben-Ezra", and his work was banned by the Catholic Church. It has grown in popularity in the 19th and 20th centuries, so that today it is probably most readily recognized."

Of course "preterism" (in all forms, Antiochus Epiphanes IV, Nero, etc, etc. (through Jesuit Luis De Alcasar, borrowing from Josephus (a Jewish defector), etc)) also fails for the same reasons.

Yet, the Biblical reasons for the absolute failures of "Futurism", "Preterism", "Amillenialism", "Idealism" (allegorical), all being heavy formulations of Roman Catholicism's counter-reformation (generally through the Jesuit order) to crush the Historicist, which identifies in many, many points in Scripture that Apostate system of combined religion/state. Those identifiers and reasons are more profound than even those other sources. Isn't it interesting that Romanism holds to them all except the Historicist?

I can also recommend the following sites (not having read but briefly from them, and may not agree with all they have to say, in regards certain matters), but look through them and test:

http://www.historicist.com/

http://www.historicist-historicism.com/

Random sampling:

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search...r2=sb-top-search&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003

No one has to take my word (or theirs) for anything, and I would not want them to. I want us all to study Scripture prayerfully, and from there it can be shown how all those systems, other than the Historicist, fail. I know, I had to look for myself from scratch once I left the Roman Faith.

PS. Whats even more amazing is that Roman Catholicism, itself identifies themselves as the "whore" of Revelation 17 in a twist of theology. Documentable.

 

[Darrell C]

The "Church" of the ancient wilderness, with Moses (Acts 7:38), continues with those that accepted/believed on Jesus Christ, for notice "the Woman" of Revelation 12, for she first gives birth to the Messiah, and yet continues from there into the long history of persecution which followed the ascension of Jesus Christ.

Equating the "church" in the Wilderness to the Body of Christ overlooks some very basic truths revealed in the New Testament.

For example, we understand that imagery concerning the "Tree" and the "Vine" which is Israel is clearly stated to be a parable (if you will) of the True Vine. I agree that Israel relied heavily on her heritage, which was the Lord's point in conveying the truth that He was the true source of provision.

Another would be the fact that in Christ we see the Jew and the Gentile brought together to create the new man, the twain made one, which cannot be imposed into an Old Testament context. If it was true prior to the promise being fulfilled, then it was not a promise.

notice "the Woman" of Revelation 12, for she first gives birth to the Messiah, and yet continues from there into the long history of persecution which followed the ascension of Jesus Christ.

The problem with that is that the Woman of Revelation, who is clearly Israel, is harbored for 3 1/2 years only, not a "long history of persecution:"


Revelation 12:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Those of the Church in the ancient wilderness who continued to believe on Him [Simeon and Anna, John the Baptist, Mary, Joseph, etc], remained in the True Olive Tree, and then those amongst the Gentiles and nations who have since then come to believe in Him; like the Magi, etc] were grafted into Him.

Again, we see the Body of Christ imposed into an Old Testament context.

The truth is that Simeon and Anna, John the Baptist, Mary, Joseph, etc...were not member of the Body of Christ prior to Pentecost. Kind of hard to have people Christians when prior to the death, burial, Resurrection, Ascension, and the coming of the Comforter...the Gospel remained a mystery, revealed only by the Spirit of God.

Some may take a view that there is a default allowance if people simply had faith that the Messiah was coming, however, when we examine the Lord's teachings we see that faith in Christ specifically in regards to SIN and the remedy for sin, meaning His death, is an absolute requirement in order for one to be born again and indwelt by the Spirit of God.

And I would suggest that while the Holy Spirit indeed ministered to the hearts of men in the Old Testament, prior to Pentecost, we can place His coming, at which time began the eternal indwelling of God in the believer...to the very day, which was the Day of Pentecost.

Those of the Church in the ancient wilderness who continued to believe on Him [Simeon and Anna, John the Baptist, Mary, Joseph, etc], remained in the True Olive Tree

You have the True Vine there before He came.

This is Christ's point to the disciples when He said "Abide in me." In view is a departure from the available Vine, the available Tree...which was Israel. Israel was the God established Witness Nation and prefigured the Church, who is the Witness Nation of God today. When we look at the events following the Lord's command to abide, we see one glaring truth: not one of them...did.

Those who were faithful among the Jews (like Peter, James, John, Apostles, Disciples who continued with Him (Jesus), like Mary, Martha, etc...), or became so [Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, certain rulers, later Paul, etc.], continued to be of Israel,

Not one of them "continued with Him:"


John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

and while others who were unfaithful and unbelieving [many Pharisees, Saducees, scribes, leaders, Caiphas, Judas, etc] were those Branches that were cut off and out of Israel (Jesus, that True Tree)

Romans 11 deals on a National Basis, not an individual basis as suggested here.

This National Basis (which does not preclude Jewish salvation individually) can also be seen here:


John 1:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.


The reason they are cut out is very simple: unbelief.

(and many claimed to be physically descended from Abraham, etc, but Christ Jesus clearly said that this is not what counts... "think not to say within yourselves...", and the Parable of the Rich Man And Lazarus is also directly pointing this out, it is a matter of "faith", not bloodline.),

That is correct, however, we still have to properly place revelation in it's proper context. The knowledge by which men are saved was the hidden wisdom of God which until revealed could not be said to be understood, much less made beneficial to those who are commanded to obey it:


Romans 16:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


Not only was it impossible for men to place saving faith in Christ prior to the Cross, it would not be until the Comforter begins His convicting ministry that men would understand their condition from an eternal perspective.

They had expectation and faith in the Promised Messiah, but they had no clue that it would be faith that God the Son died in man's stead to take upon Himself the penalty for our sin that would reconcile them to God on an eternal basis.


Continued...