The Israel of God

[Darrell C]

while those of the Gentiles who came to believe and have faith in Christ Jesus (Israel), they were "grafted into" Him (like Luke, whole cities, Cornelius and his household, etc).

These were indicted into the Body of Christ, which did not exist prior to Pentecost. We cannot equate the ecclesia of Israel with the Body of Christ.

That there is a difference between the two groups is clear in that the new man has a place and beginning in time:


Ephesians 2:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Gentiles did not get grafted into an existing provision, because the provision that was in place was done away with. Relationship with God was through the Covenant of Law, which was abrogated with the establishing of the New Covenant, which also has a place and beginning in time which can be precisely established through Christ's Work:


Luke 22:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

What of the Temple?

1 Corinthians 3:9 - For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 - If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Corinthians 6:6 - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 2:21 - In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

1 Peter 2:5 - Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:12 - Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

(See also 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

I would agree, the Church is the Temple of God.

That doesn't negate the other Temples mentioned in Bible Prophecy.

Revelatoin 11:19 - And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament : and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Was the Church "opened" at this time?

Jesus own "Body" is the Temple:

But he spake of the temple of his body. - John 2:21

See also the True Heavenly Temple - Exodus 25:40, 26:30, 27:8; Hebrews 8:5, 9:23; Revelation 11:19 and so on.

The Temple represented an earthly parable of the True, which is Heaven itself, the realm of God. When we keep a clear context and properly maintain a Biblical understanding of the purpose of the Temple, we better understand that it was the presence of God that was lacking in man's existence:


Hebrews 9:8-12

King James Version (KJV)

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


It is true that Christ's Body is the Temple spoken of. It is true that the Church is the Temple of God.

But that does not negate the True Holy Place which prior to Christ's Work was not accessible by man.

That does not negate what Revelation, as well as Old Testament Prophecy describes concerning the earthly Temples.

If Scripture states there will be a Temple in the Tribulation, and it does...


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


...and it states it in Daniel...


Daniel 12:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


...and the Lord states there will be one as well...


Matthew 24:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


...who is it that would deny there is going to be a Temple in the Tribulation?

Well, perhaps those that deny the Tribulation, maybe.

All those looking for a new physical Temple to be built in the land of Palestine/Judea in war-torn earthly Jerusalem, have followed cunningly devised fables of Romanism, through the Jesuit Futurist propaganda and counter-reformation theology, of the likes of Manuel De Lacunza, Francisco Ribera, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, etc. Do not believe me? It is documentable and traceable to them.

On the contrary, despite the fact that questionable scholars and theologians have embraced a view that teaches a Temple in the Tribulation, that does not negate the fact that Scripture itself teaches this.

Usually the denial comes from those who spiritualize Scripture to make it fit their particular theology.

When we see condemnation levied against others to ratify our own doctrine, we have to question that. When we see the Word of God presented to support our views, that's when the discussion begins.

And I look forward to it.


Malachi 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

These were indicted into the Body of Christ, which did not exist prior to Pentecost. We cannot equate the ecclesia of Israel with the Body of Christ.

That there is a difference between the two groups is clear in that the new man has a place and beginning in time:


So true, as paul seemed to be stating to us that the jews that became saved were the spiritual isreal among the house of phtsical isreal, but also that they would be included in the church with gentiles also...

So Jewish believers are the faithful remnant God has kept calling out in every generation among house of isreal, and they would be the 'true/spiritual isreal" paul talks about, and yet NOT same as the church itself, as that Body did not exist until pentacost here on earth!

 

[Protestant]

Usually the denial comes from those who spiritualize Scripture to make it fit their particular theology.

All Scripture is spiritual.

Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit.

High I.Q. is insufficient to understand its truths.

A seminary degree is insufficient to understand its truths.

Only by revelation of the Spirit can its mysteries be known.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

----------------------------------------

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

-------------------------------

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

--------------------------------------------

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Darrell C]

These were indicted into the Body of Christ, which did not exist prior to Pentecost. We cannot equate the ecclesia of Israel with the Body of Christ.

That there is a difference between the two groups is clear in that the new man has a place and beginning in time:

So true, as paul seemed to be stating to us that the jews that became saved were the spiritual isreal among the house of phtsical isreal, but also that they would be included in the church with gentiles also...

So Jewish believers are the faithful remnant God has kept calling out in every generation among house of isreal, and they would be the 'true/spiritual isreal" paul talks about, and yet NOT same as the church itself, as that Body did not exist until pentacost here on earth!

Just wanted to say for the record that this should have said "inducted," lol.

While we do distinguish between the Church and true believers prior to Pentecost, that doesn't mean we establish a Two-Fold doctrine in regards to redemptive history. All Redemptive Efforts of God have always been for the purpose of the same goal, which is to reconcile man to Himself. We can say truly that Abraham, for example, was not a Christian, but that does not mean he was not, in the eternal perspective, any less "saved" than we. He was still in need of having his sins forgiven through Christ, but specific revelation given us through the Spirit in this Age was not available to him.

Those said to be of the true Israel because their faith was genuine did not have the provision of the New Testament. We know this because we can see in Israel's History that there was a need for a New Covenant, and until it was established by and through Christ, it remained a promise.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

All Scripture is spiritual.

This is true, but my point concerning "spiritualization" is not a reference to the spiritual nature of Scripture, it is a reference to making Scripture symbolic, metaphoric, allegoric, et cetera, to the point that the intent becomes subjective to the one expounding.

For example, some will take Revelation and make it a general allegory of a cosmic battle. Satan represents a force, not a being, for example.

In the post I made the statement "spiritualization" is in view in regards to the Temple. The point being that despite the fact that we, the Body, are the Temple of God in the spiritual sense, that does not negate that Scripture speaks about a literal Temple. In Revelation 11 some will spiritualize the Two Witnesses to represent, for example, the Old and the New Testament, rather than two literal men. Well, when someone can tell me that either will die, lay in the street for three days, and then be Raptured...perhaps I might be a little more accepting of such a spiritualized interpretation.

Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit.

No, Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by men who were led of God in what they wrote.

There is a difference.

High I.Q. is insufficient to understand its truths.

A seminary degree is insufficient to understand its truths.

Which is evidenced in the fact that even laymen were used to pen Scripture.

I think some commit scholarly suicide when they try to impose what man states as immutable in scholarly efforts into the Word of God. I personally am grateful that the Lord uses the goofy to confound the wise.

Only by revelation of the Spirit can its mysteries be known.

And that is a central point that I think many miss. If we embrace this great truth it will, I believe, change how we look at Scripture. But isn't it out tendency to pat ourselves on the back for our own abilities?

We have nothing and know nothing but by the grace of God. He is our Teacher, and until we become submissive students we may vie in vain.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

----------------------------------------

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

-------------------------------

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

--------------------------------------------

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Excellent assembling of relevant and on-point passages to the point you are trying to make.

Of these, there is only one which I have not used in the last two days addressing the very issue of man's reliance, both in the natural condition as well as the spiritual condition, on the revelation of God, or, God's intervention in regards to awareness of the spiritual things of God. The one not used, regarding the Lord revealing truth to men during His Ministry, while still relevant to your point, has to be carefully kept in a context which recognizes the Gospel itself as a Mystery not revealed to men until Pentecost.

Here is a verse to illustrate that:


Romans 16:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


Understanding the progressive nature of revelation is a necessity if we want to properly understand Redemptive History. And only when we spiritualize the Word of God can we draw conclusions that equate Israel with the Church. It does an injustice to the Work of Christ and I believe, even to the Grace of God.

One can benefit from study of the Mystery, and I can guarantee for those not familiar with this Mystery, it will change your understanding of the Gospel for the better, and it should help us to better understand the magnitude of Christ and that which He has accomplished.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

God's Elect Nation !

Did you know that God has a Elect/Chosen Nation in the World and its not Israel of the middle east, Abraham's physical descendants according to the flesh ! The fact of the matter, that israel of the middle east is distinct from God's Elect Nation of Israel, Paul makes that distinction here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now in this Scripture, the name Israel here represents that israel in the middle east, and as you can see, its distinct from the Election, which is also a Nation, and David refers to the Elect Nation Israel here Ps 33:12

12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

You see that ? The People He has Chosen is a Nation, a Blessed Nation ! See also Ps 106:5 ! Also, Did not God choose a People in Christ Eph 1:4 that is His Inheritance Eph 1:18 ?

I declare unto you, that this Chosen People in Christ is God's Chosen People and Inheritance of Ps 33:12.

Again Notice how that the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4 are said to be God's Inheritance Eph 1:18

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

This Chosen Nation is the One that brings forth fruit unto God, in contrast to that physical nation in the middle east Matt 21:43

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

That physical nation was cast off, proving that it was not His Chosen Nation and Inheritance, for God does not cast off His Inheritance Ps 94:14

For the Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

Yet He did cast off and forsake the physical nation of israel Rom 11:15

For if the casting away or off of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

So if national israel according to the flesh was really His People, His Inheritance that He has Chosen, and He cast them off or away, then scripture is found to be a lie, inconsistent, unrelaible judging from what is said in Ps 94:14

For the Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

 

[Darrell C]

Did you know that God has a Elect/Chosen Nation in the World and its not Israel of the middle east, Abraham's physical descendants according to the flesh ! The fact of the matter, that israel of the middle east is distinct from God's Elect Nation of Israel, Paul makes that distinction here Rom 11:7

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now in this Scripture, the name Israel here represents that israel in the middle east, and as you can see, its distinct from the Election, which is also a Nation, and David refers to the Elect Nation Israel here Ps 33:12

12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

You see that ? The People He has Chosen is a Nation, a Blessed Nation ! See also Ps 106:5 ! Also, Did not God choose a People in Christ Eph 1:4 that is His Inheritance Eph 1:18 ?

I declare unto you, that this Chosen People in Christ is God's Chosen People and Inheritance of Ps 33:12.

Again Notice how that the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4 are said to be God's Inheritance Eph 1:18

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

This Chosen Nation is the One that brings forth fruit unto God, in contrast to that physical nation in the middle east Matt 21:43

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

That physical nation was cast off, proving that it was not His Chosen Nation and Inheritance, for God does not cast off His Inheritance Ps 94:14

For the Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

Yet He did cast off and forsake the physical nation of israel Rom 11:15

For if the casting away or off of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

So if national israel according to the flesh was really His People, His Inheritance that He has Chosen, and He cast them off or away, then scripture is found to be a lie, inconsistent, unrelaible judging from what is said in Ps 94:14

For the Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

I would agree that the Israel that exists today as a Nation is not what we can consider Israel restored, however, we still have to understand that Israel has not been cast off:


Romans 11

King James Version (KJV)

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,


This is a reference to Israel as a Nation.

We also see...


Romans 11:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


What this means is that God is going to fulfill the Promise of the Covenant He gave to Israel. Notice that contrasted is Gentile Inclusion and...Israel herself.

We all understand that the "true Israel" are those of genuine faith, that is not disputed, but let's not negate the Promises of God in relation to those that are called His people. If the "true Israel" were the only people in view, then it could not be said "He came unto His own and His own received Him not," because in the sense of the True Israel we did indeed receive Him, or we would not be counted as the Israel of God. We have to carefully place the context of each passage in it's proper place, or we negate some things which, from my view, are important parts of Scripture, without which, we draw conclusions that are vastly different.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

I would agree that the Israel that exists today as a Nation is not what we can consider Israel restored, however, we still have to understand that Israel has not been cast off:


Romans 11

King James Version (KJV)

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,


This is a reference to Israel as a Nation.

We also see...


Romans 11:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


What this means is that God is going to fulfill the Promise of the Covenant He gave to Israel. Notice that contrasted is Gentile Inclusion and...Israel herself.

We all understand that the "true Israel" are those of genuine faith, that is not disputed, but let's not negate the Promises of God in relation to those that are called His people. If the "true Israel" were the only people in view, then it could not be said "He came unto His own and His own received Him not," because in the sense of the True Israel we did indeed receive Him, or we would not be counted as the Israel of God. We have to carefully place the context of each passage in it's proper place, or we negate some things which, from my view, are important parts of Scripture, without which, we draw conclusions that are vastly different.


God bless.

Hi Darrell, Did you understand my post and the points made? Let's review them! Show me that you understand them! Thanks!

 

[Protestant]

No, Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by men who were led of God in what they wrote.

There is a difference.

Not really.

Please note the following Scripture:

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Here we have the voices of the Christian martyrs speaking, yet it is not their voices that speak. Rather it is the voice of God the Father who speaks in them.

Their words were inspired by the Almighty and demand our belief.

Please find the testimony of Christian martyrs through the ages which denied the Papacy was the Antichrist, his mother Church, Mystery Babylon.

In the minds of the Dispensationalists the Mystery of Iniquity is still very much a mystery.

However, in the minds of millions of Christians, both martyred and not, that Mystery was solved centuries ago.

The evidence is so abundant as well as available to us today that no Christian can truthfully declare, "I did not know."

The entire OT is but a shadow of the New.

That would include the innumerable types prefiguring the antitype, Christ, as well as the innumerable types which prefigured the antitype, the Church, composed of both Jewish and Gentile elect.

Blessings in Christ, to you, too, Darrell.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrell, Did you understand my post and the points made? Let's review them! Show me that you understand them! Thanks!

I think so, but if you feel I did not understand please point out where my response was irrelevant.

God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

God's Elect Nation !2

Lets remember that God's Chosen Nation is also His Inheritance Ps 33:12

12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

That word inheritance nachalah :

I.possession, property, inheritance, heritage

A.property


B.portion, share


C.inheritance, portion

This is important to know so we can scripturally Identify God's Special Chosen People, His Inheritance.

Now Paul Identify's the Redeemed Church as God's Special Chosen Possession, lets look at Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us[The Church Eph 5:25], that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Thats what the word peculiar means, its the greek word periousios and means:

I.that which is one's own, belonging to one's possessions

A.a people selected by God from the other nations for his own possession

See how that coincides with Ps 33:12 ?

The redeemed People here of Titus 2:14 who are also God's Chosen judging from Titus 1:1 " The Faith of God's Elect" cannot and is not in any competition with the Chosen Nation of God His Inheritance in Ps 33:12,

In fact Titus 2:14 can very well read as Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar nation, zealous of good works.

The word nation and people are interchangeable !

The word for people laos means:


I.a people, people group, tribe, nation, all those who are of the same stock and language


II.of a great part of the population gathered together anywhere

Dont forget that Titus 2:14 is speaking of the Church, the Body of Christ, being described as a Peculiar Nation or People !

Now if we look at the word Nation in Ps 33:12

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

The word nation gowy means:

I.nation, people

A.nation, people

i.usually of non-Hebrew people


ii.of descendants of Abraham


iii.of Israel

God sees People and Nations as interchangeable:

(of two things) capable of being put or used in the place of each other !

This is Illustrated also by what God says to Rebekkah here, Isaacs Wife Gen 25:23

23 And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Hence the Blessed Chosen Nation of Ps 33:12, Ps 106:5

That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.

Its the Redeemed Church of Christ Titus 2:14; 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Dont forget who Peter is saying this to, those of 1 Pet 1:18-19

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

The same Blood that redeemed these Titus 2:14, and these Eph 2:13

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off[Gentiles] are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[savedbymercy]

I think so, but if you feel I did not understand please point out where my response was irrelevant.

God bless.

Well, are you going to review with me the points I made or not ? Show me that you understood them, then we can go from there !

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
No, Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by men who were led of God in what they wrote.

There is a difference.

Not really.

Really.



God is ascribed with writing only one time:


Exodus 24:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.


Okay, twice...


John 8:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.


The distinction is made, I think, to clarify the separation between an Eternal God and physical man. The above is a little tongue in cheek but we know, for the most part, the names of the men who are ascribed with writing Scripture. There are a few Old Testament Books and one New Testament Book which remain anonymous (though I will throw in my guess as Paul wrote Hebrews) but we don't usually consider that God Himself took ink and scroll in hand and penned them.

Inspiration should not, I think, be tied to the writer's themselves, as I credit God fully on the content and intent of Scripture. Just an opinion of mine, and you are free to take a different view.

Please note the following Scripture:

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Speaks of the spoken word, not the written, so I fail to see the relevance. If we had every utterance spoken by those used to speak forth the Word of God, I would think the world could not contain the books.

Here we have the voices of the Christian martyrs speaking, yet it is not their voices that speak. Rather it is the voice of God the Father who speaks in them.

Again, I see to see the relevance to the Inspiration of Scripture and the fact that men were used to write the Books of Scripture.

Their words were inspired by the Almighty and demand our belief.

On the contrary, we are only held accountable to that which the Lord makes known to us. What He makes known to others falls into their accountability box.

And I do not equate the statements of men outside of a Biblical Context with Inspired Scripture. By doing so great tragedy has resulted through the millennia. We must remember that men are fallible and when a spokesman for God is honored by his words or deeds being recorded in Inspired Scripture that is awesome, but not everything said, even by notables in Scripture should be considered truth. Peter, for example, would have led astray anyone he influenced in playing the hypocrite concerning those of Galatia. Satan said all things were his and while in a temporal context there is truth in that, ultimately...everything belongs to the Lord Himself.

We should be careful when giving our allegiance or loyalty to anyone that falls outside of the Word of God. We can admire, but we do not equate them with nor consider them on a par with the Word of God when it comes to having a measure of rule for truth.

Please find the testimony of Christian martyrs through the ages which denied the Papacy was the Antichrist, his mother Church, Mystery Babylon.

And I would guess this is the primary issue that engages you. I try not to get caught up in the disputes between denominations or theology systems.

The Word of God is the only source I need for learning truth and understanding God and that which He felt I needed to know. Occupation with history and historical disputes, especially when they demand loyalty to a particular group or person has left many sitting still in regards to evangelical efforts. I am not going to try to win someone to Christ, nor do I think it possible to win someone to Christ...by focusing on what I think is error. Only by expounding the truth of Scripture can truth come to the forefront, and it is only Scripture, I believe, that God will use in His convicting efforts in the world.

That is the historical and Biblical pattern, and it is that to which I try to keep my focus.

In the minds of the Dispensationalists the Mystery of Iniquity is still very much a mystery.

Relevance? I am not a Dispensationalist, though I might be found to agree with certain doctrines found in those (plural) camps.

Do you really think that people are going to be led to Christ...if Christ is not the focus?

There is one person on a certain forum that I have interacted with for years. He hates a certain theology, and guess what, he is still in the same place he was five years ago.

When he could be going out and speaking to people about Christ.

However, in the minds of millions of Christians, both martyred and not, that Mystery was solved centuries ago.

Again, what has this to do with the Inspiration of Scripture? And if we have to be brutally honest, "millions of Christians" couldn't find the Book of Job without referencing the index. Those that take an accelerated interest in the Word of God stand as a small number among those already called the few.

So I am not sure what point it is that you seek to make with this post, but it is lost on me, brother, lol.

The evidence is so abundant as well as available to us today that no Christian can truthfully declare, "I did not know."

I agree, God has provided, or will provide every man the opportunity to receive the truth. All men have the opportunity to be obedient to God in the capacity given every man according to the revelation they have provided to them.

Thankfully, when the Tribulation begins, there will still be opportunity for those who previously spent their time occupied on matters that they will discover were so trivial, I can't help but think, they will be ashamed that they exerted their efforts on them.

The entire OT is but a shadow of the New.

Not at all. Abraham was not a shadow, for example. Faith was not a shadow. Obedience was not a shadow. The Flood was not a shadow.

We take the foundational principles of the Old Testament and understand them in light of the revelation provided us in the New. While the focus of faith has changed, now that Christ is revealed to men, we do not discount as shadow the faith that was revealed in the Old Testament Saints.

That would include the innumerable types prefiguring the antitype, Christ, as well as the innumerable types which prefigured the antitype, the Church, composed of both Jewish and Gentile elect.

Perhaps my head is a little foggy today, lol, but once again, I fail to see the relevance. But since you bring it up, what was the Old Testament type of the Church? Was it not Israel? Was she not a witness nation created by God for the purpose of revealing God to the world?

And that is our job, my friend, even as it is the Work of the Spirit of God. We are to glorify Christ, and we can do that better if we do not get caught up in the disputes that hold the growth of some in check, rendering them useless for the cause of Christ, because their efforts are fueled by hatred for some group or theology.

It's one thing to have a ministry specific to a particular cult or group, but usually when such a ministry is led of God we can see the fruit of it. For those entangled in denominational bias I usually se no fruit, only contention. If we are going to convert anyone from anything, it is going to be first from the natural man to the spiritual, and what happens afterwards falls into a category of discipling.

Blessings in Christ, to you, too, Darrell.

Thanks, I can take all the blessings I can get, my friend.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Well, are you going to review with me the points I made or not ? Show me that you understood them, then we can go from there !

My understanding of your post is evident in my response, which has caused you, apparently, to feel I misunderstood.

So again, if that is the case, then what in my response do you see as not addressing the tenor of the post.

That's where we are.

Now if you want me to go back and address the post in more detail, I can do that, though not today. I did not do that because I felt it easier to just make the one point. Which is, we do not write off Israel's role in Scripture despite the fact she (as a Nation) has received a temporary blindness. The underlying premise s that Israel has been cast off and you this for good. That is not what Paul is saying and the testimony of Scripture makes it, or should make it abundantly clear that Israel as a Nation still has a role to play. Unless one spiritualizes the 144,000 of Revelation as not referring to literal Jews who take place in the Tribulation then we have to admit that God has by no means cast off Israel.

If I have misunderstood, this makes the second post which gives you opportunity to set the record straight.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Just wanted to say for the record that this should have said "inducted," lol.

While we do distinguish between the Church and true believers prior to Pentecost, that doesn't mean we establish a Two-Fold doctrine in regards to redemptive history. All Redemptive Efforts of God have always been for the purpose of the same goal, which is to reconcile man to Himself. We can say truly that Abraham, for example, was not a Christian, but that does not mean he was not, in the eternal perspective, any less "saved" than we. He was still in need of having his sins forgiven through Christ, but specific revelation given us through the Spirit in this Age was not available to him.

Those said to be of the true Israel because their faith was genuine did not have the provision of the New Testament. We know this because we can see in Israel's History that there was a need for a New Covenant, and until it was established by and through Christ, it remained a promise.


God bless.

which is why I do tend to see a difference between being saved under the old covenant and now under the new One, as it relates to all of us NOW having the Holy spirit indwelling and sealing all of us...

 

[One Baptism]

Equating the "church" in the Wilderness to the Body of Christ overlooks some very basic truths revealed in the New Testament....

Nothing is overlooked, brother Darrell C, and as time allows I hope to come back and respond in kind, in some detail to your replies (and to the isolated and incomplete Scriptural references therein (like Romans 11 for instance, and matters of Covenants etc)), for as of now (possibly even this coming week), I cannot (time, others are ahead in the queue at the moment, as well as another subject that must be started), but I wanted to respond in very brief, so that you may not think I have ignored your responses, though I have not yet responded to them. If you may be patient a while yet longer, thank you.

 

[Darrell C]

which is why I do tend to see a difference between being saved under the old covenant and now under the new One, as it relates to all of us NOW having the Holy spirit indwelling and sealing all of us...

Without question there is a difference, Just my opinion but the magnitude of salvation is missed by many because they equate salvation in the Old with the salvation provided in Christ. The difference is...eternal.

We know the Holy Spirit has always ministered in the hearts of men but His Ministry under the New Covenant is radically different.

Christ makes it clear:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


Few stop to think about the fact that the disciples were not indwelt believers in Christ. The Lord makes this clear as well:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


This is precisely what John the Baptist prophesied:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


John is not talking about a subsequent empowering of believers, but distinguishes between believers and unbelievers and their fate. Those saved will be Baptized with the Holy Spirit, and those who do not repent will be baptized with fire.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Nothing is overlooked, brother Darrell C, and as time allows I hope to come back and respond in kind, in some detail to your replies (and to the isolated and incomplete Scriptural references therein (like Romans 11 for instance, and matters of Covenants etc)), for as of now (possibly even this coming week), I cannot (time, others are ahead in the queue at the moment, as well as another subject that must be started), but I wanted to respond in very brief, so that you may not think I have ignored your responses, though I have not yet responded to them. If you may be patient a while yet longer, thank you.

Completely understandable, my friend, I too need to set my focus, alas, on the cares of this world, lol.

Look forward to it.

And I agree it was an incomplete presentation, it was intended only for the purpose of stirring up discussion which might go into greater detail. And I understand about having to wait in line, lol, sometimes we get too many irons in the fire.


God bless.

 

[savedbymercy]

Spiritual Jews are True Jews indeed !

The True Jews before God are Abraham's Spiritual not physical Seed, wherein he, that is Abraham, is a Type of Christ, in that as he was responsible to physically circumcise his physical seed, for even ishmael, who was his physical seed, was commanded to be circumcised by Abraham Gen 17:9-27

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.

16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Now pay close attention to Vs 23, the word said there also means command, The Geneva bible reads:

Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that was bought with his money, that is, every man-child among the men of Abraham’s house, and [l]he circumcised the foreskin of their flesh in that selfsame day, as God had commanded him.

Now as a Type of Christ this foreshadowed how that Abraham's antitype, the Lord Jesus Christ would circumcise all of His Seed born in His House Heb 3:6

6 But Christ as a son over his own house[Spiritual]; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Those born in His House are His Seed Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

The word House in Heb 3:6 is the greek word oikos and does mean also:

III.stock, family, descendants of one

Which corresponds to the meaning of seed in Isa 53:10, the word zera` which means:

D.offspring, descendants, posterity, children

And He circumcises each son born in His House with the circumcision of Christ Col 2:11

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

This circumcision of Christ is one of the Heart, the One Moses wrote of here Deut 30:6

And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Its of the Heart Rom 2:29

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Thats a True Jew in God's Estimation, it has nothing at all to do with being an ethnic jew, or being a physical descendant of Abraham, it has to do with being the Seed of Christ, born in His House !

 

[savedbymercy]

darrell

My understanding of your post is evident in my response, which has caused you, apparently, to feel I misunderstood.

I suppose that means no, ok no problem, but be prepared to reap what you sow !