The KEY to understanding WHY all the different denominations

[evangelist-7]

Jesus Himself chose who would be pastors and teachers

“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ, til we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge
of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting …” (Ephesians 4:11-14)
These gifts, or appointments, are the 5 different kinds of church leaders.

”And God has appointed these in the church:
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers …” (1 Corinthians 12:28)

We are given the reasons (above) why Jesus Himself chose the leaders
He would see to it that all of the churches would have the same doctrines.
False doctrine would be less likely to creep into the churches.
The Holy Spirit would surely lead the Jesus-chosen pastors.
But, would God’s Spirit lead pastors who were NOT chosen by Jesus?

Let’s not forget Satan
He is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of this world.
When man disobeys (rebels against) God, Satan has more of an open doorway to enter!
He hates God, man, churches … and he comes “to steal, kill, and destroy” (John 10:10).

A related observation
Jesus chose His 12 disciples carefully.
They were ordinary men: fishermen, a tax collector, and a revolutionary.
Not one was from the educated religious class of Jews.

A very important question
Did Jesus ever decide to stop choosing who He wanted to be His church leaders?
If so, WHY would He stop … and allow man to choose for himself?

The grievous error
For various reasons, some men decided to appoint themselves to leadership.
This became more and more of a trend … man-run churches!
And many different doctrines, and many different denominations!

Now for the BIGGEST and most important question
Since the original apostles passed away …
what percentage of RCC, EOC, old Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.
priests, ministers, pastors, etc. do you believe have actually been chosen by Jesus?
.

 

[steaver]

A related observation
Jesus chose His 12 disciples carefully.
They were ordinary men: fishermen, a tax collector, and a revolutionary.
Not one was from the educated religious class of Jews.

.

He did choose Paul, who was well educated. I do however see a problem in todays denominations in that most if not all wouldn't think of appointing a person Pastor who did not have a "higher" education. Isn't this just wrong? I know some great bible students who know the scriptures inside and out, but they never went to college so they would not be considered for Pastor unless they go get a degree.

 

[steaver]

This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

1Tim3

Don't see anything in there about seminary or college. So why do denominations require it?

 

[OldRegular]

I favor so-called bi-vocational pastors myself.

 

[12strings]

We are given the reasons (above) why Jesus Himself chose the leaders
He would see to it that all of the churches would have the same doctrines.
False doctrine would be less likely to creep into the churches.
The Holy Spirit would surely lead the Jesus-chosen pastors.
But, would God’s Spirit lead pastors who were NOT chosen by Jesus?

A few abservations:
1. Peter Himself (hand-picked by Jesus) fell in to the trap of bigotry and racism against gentiles, so being chosen by Christ does not protect one from all error. (He was in fact practicing a different doctrine than Paul, one that required rebuke).
2. Depending on what you mean by "Chosen", God's spirit can lead those who were not chosen by the earthly Jesus. God's spirit can lead donkeys and pagan kings in the OT.

A related observation
Jesus chose His 12 disciples carefully.
They were ordinary men: fishermen, a tax collector, and a revolutionary.
Not one was from the educated religious class of Jews.

Paul was educated, and God used his education as a tool in his ministry. God can use both educated and non-educated, and everyone in between. We are told to study to show ourselves approved.

A very important question
Did Jesus ever decide to stop choosing who He wanted to be His church leaders?
If so, WHY would He stop … and allow man to choose for himself?

Titus 1:5 - This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—

Paul Told Timothy to appoint elders. Sounds like humans to me...although I believe the Spirit guides paul, timothy, those elders, and elders/pastors in churches today.

Now for the BIGGEST and most important question
Since the original apostles passed away …
what percentage of RCC, EOC, old Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.
priests, ministers, pastors, etc. do you believe have actually been chosen by Jesus?[/COLOR][/B]
.

There is no way to know this side of eternity. With perhaps a few qualifications, I would say any and all true pastors/preachers who are preaching the true Gospel from God's Word ARE CALLED (use "chosen" if you wish) by God for the task, at least for that season of life. If they are NOT PREACHING the Word, they are false teachers, and not true preachers...which is why we must evaluate their teaching and fruit when compared to scripture...not simply walk up and ask them "were you chosen by Jesus to preach?"

 

[DHK]

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

In his lifetime it is said that Paul established over one hundred churches. Before he left each one, he ordained pastors in each one.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus Himself chose who would be pastors and teachers

“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ, til we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge
of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting …” (Ephesians 4:11-14)
These gifts, or appointments, are the 5 different kinds of church leaders.

”And God has appointed these in the church:
first apostles, second prophets, third teachers …” (1 Corinthians 12:28)

We are given the reasons (above) why Jesus Himself chose the leaders
He would see to it that all of the churches would have the same doctrines.
False doctrine would be less likely to creep into the churches.
The Holy Spirit would surely lead the Jesus-chosen pastors.
But, would God’s Spirit lead pastors who were NOT chosen by Jesus?

Let’s not forget Satan
He is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of this world.
When man disobeys (rebels against) God, Satan has more of an open doorway to enter!
He hates God, man, churches … and he comes “to steal, kill, and destroy” (John 10:10).

A related observation
Jesus chose His 12 disciples carefully.
They were ordinary men: fishermen, a tax collector, and a revolutionary.
Not one was from the educated religious class of Jews.

A very important question
Did Jesus ever decide to stop choosing who He wanted to be His church leaders?
If so, WHY would He stop … and allow man to choose for himself?

The grievous error
For various reasons, some men decided to appoint themselves to leadership.
This became more and more of a trend … man-run churches!
And many different doctrines, and many different denominations!

Now for the BIGGEST and most important question
Since the original apostles passed away …
what percentage of RCC, EOC, old Protestant, Evangelical, Pentecostal, etc.
priests, ministers, pastors, etc. do you believe have actually been chosen by Jesus?
.

ONLY have 3 offices still given by the Holy Spirit to the church!
NO more Apostles/prophets for now, Pastors/Teachers/Evangelists

And the main reason that we disagree in ourgroups are that we are still imperfect saints, in the flesh still, and we have differing understanding of the same texts kargely based uponour presumpisitions that we all bring to the texts, our "religious gridlock", as we have pet theology and read to prove that instead what the Bible actually teaches!!

 

[evangelist-7]

ONLY have 3 offices still given by the Holy Spirit to the church!
NO more Apostles/prophets for now, Pastors/Teachers/Evangelists
And the main reason that we disagree in our groups are that we are still imperfect saints, in the flesh still ...

Is I not understanding thou again? ... 'Tis getting to be a habit.

“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
til we all come to the unity of the faith ...” (Ephesians 4:11+)
.

 

[DHK]

Is I not understanding thou again? ... 'Tis getting to be a habit.

“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
til we all come to the unity of the faith ...” (Ephesians 4:11+)
.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles,

Note the words carefully: "some" not "all."
The "some" does not include you. You were not there. He was speaking to the Ephesian church. There were some in that church that could have been apostles but not all. Or Paul was referring to himself and the other apostles of the first century. Past the first century, "the apostolic age" there are no apostles. Some were given to be apostles, not all, not you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Is I not understanding thou again? ... 'Tis getting to be a habit.

“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
til we all come to the unity of the faith ...” (Ephesians 4:11+)
.

Do yopu know of ANY Modern day Apostles/prophets operating right now in the church?

 

[evangelist-7]

And He Himself gave some to be apostles,
Note the words carefully: "some" not "all."

The "some" does not include you. You were not there. He was speaking to the Ephesian church.
There were some in that church that could have been apostles but not all.
Or Paul was referring to himself and the other apostles of the first century.
Past the first century, "the apostolic age" there are no apostles.
Some were given to be apostles, not all, not you.

As per usual, this is extremely enlightening ... thank you.

“And He (Jesus) Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
til we all come to the unity of the faith ...” (Ephesians 4:11+)

Yes, Paul said Jesus gave to the church body (as a whole) ...
some specially-anointed believers to fill those 5 leadership offices.

If man had not taken the churches over, and discontinued God's Plan for growing the church,
the whole world would have been evangelized years ago!

IMO, to see this requires the Holy Spirit to give spiritual understanding,
and that's why it is not seen by many people.
And then there are those who are too stubborn to admit the truth.

So, it's the old story ... the free will of God's creations trumps His perfect will.
Satan with his free will + man with his free will = quite a combo indeed!
.

 

[DHK]

As per usual, this is extremely enlightening ... thank you.

“And He (Jesus) Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
til we all come to the unity of the faith ...” (Ephesians 4:11+)

Yes, Paul said Jesus gave to the church body (as a whole) ...
some specially-anointed believers to fill those 5 leadership offices.

There is no "church" as a whole. You won't find that in Scripture. The word is "ekklesia," which means assembly. He was writing to the assembly at Ephesus, which becomes an example for other assemblies. But the office of apostles and prophets no longer exist.

If man had not taken the churches over, and discontinued God's Plan for growing the church,
the whole world would have been evangelized years ago!

The sinfulness of man's heart prohibits the whole world from being evangelized. I can demonstrate that to you today.
Win just one soul to the Lord in one month. Disciple him.
The second month the two of you do the same.
The third month the four of you do the same.
The fourth month the eight of you do the same.
How long would it take before the whole world would be reached for Christ?
Less than three years. Just 31 months. But will all believe? No, of course not.

IMO, to see this requires the Holy Spirit to give spiritual understanding,
and that's why it is not seen by many people.

It requires faithful stewards of God's Word. Are you one. Three years, and that is all.

And then there are those who are too stubborn to admit the truth.

Like yourself.

So, it's the old story ... the free will of God's creations trumps His perfect will.
Satan with his free will + man with his free will = quite a combo indeed!

.

Are you saying that Satan is greater than Christ.
Greater is he that is in you then he that is in the world.
Do you believe that verse?

 

[evangelist-7]

But the office of apostles and prophets no longer exist.

As per usual, this is extremely enlightening ... thank you.

I see that we're back to arguing again ... but I've had enough.
Maybe, we'll pick up again in 6 months or so.

News Flash ...
My wife was a prophet(ess) for several years at an AofG church of 500.
Sorry you weren't there to experience it.
You'd have a whole different mindset than you have now (hopefully).

Your response: "No I wouldn't."
.

 

[DHK]

As per usual, this is extremely enlightening ... thank you.

I see that we're back to arguing again ... but I've had enough.
Maybe, we'll pick up again in 6 months or so.

News Flash ...
My wife was a prophet(ess) for several years at an AofG church of 500.
Sorry you weren't there to experience it.
You'd have a whole different mindset than you have now (hopefully).

Your response: "No I wouldn't."
.

The only prophets today are false prophets. Check out the theology of Benny Hinn for an example.

 

[Don]

News Flash ...
My wife was a prophet(ess) for several years at an AofG church of 500.
Sorry you weren't there to experience it.
You'd have a whole different mindset than you have now (hopefully).

Your response: "No I wouldn't."[/COLOR][/B]
.

Interesting. How can he say "No I wouldn't" or "Yes I would" for something he wasn't at, nor ever will be able to attend?

Why is she not still a prophetess?

 

[evangelist-7]

Why is she not still a prophetess?

That's her business, not yours.
Are you another product of 1900+ years of false teaching in the churches?
I don't know ... maybe you do believe the baptism and the spiritual gifts never ceased.
And maybe it's not my business.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

Strongly connected to this thread is the following ...

I simply wish to WARN members of all denominations and churches!

1900+ years ago, Spirit-controlled churches gleefully converted into becoming man-controlled churches!

The Spirit-controlled churches believed in the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual power gifts!

The corrupted man-controlled churches much preferred to be man-controlled churches!
Their handy-dandy excuse for being so was a little verse in 1 Corinthians (13:10),
and they passed along their false interpretation of this verse to their poor unsuspecting followers.

With "doctrines of men", these corrupted man-controlled churches destroyed the spiritual power of God's Church.

(Man has been given free will, and God rarely messes with it. Even worse, He flees from blatant and willing UNBELIEF.)

If this had NOT happened, the world would have been evangelized many years ago!

I.E. God's preferred method of evangelizing is preaching the gospel with S-W-M following, which is how the NT churches did it.

P.S. This baptism with the Holy Spirit is available from Jesus, if you ask Him persistently for it.
.

 

[DHK]

Strongly connected to this thread is the following ...

I simply wish to WARN members of all denominations and churches!

1900+ years ago, Spirit-controlled churches gleefully converted into becoming man-controlled churches!

That is false. 2000 years ago the apostles were still in existence and 100 years after that most churches were still following the Lord. Your statement is absurd. There was some error starting to creep into some of the churches. Every writer of the NT warned about that. It was happening in John's day in particular.


1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
--Since John lived close to the end of the first century he would be one of those that you would include in "1900 + years ago...churches becoming man controlled churches." This is the result of the Apostle John you are saying??

The Spirit-controlled churches believed in the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual power gifts!

You mean like the church at Corinth--the most carnal church mentioned in the New Testament. Paul spends three chapters on spiritual gifts and rebukes this church for their abuse of them. No other church had gifts as this one did. No other church was as carnal as this one. The two seem to go together don't they? Which do you rely on: gifts? or the Lord?

The corrupted man-controlled churches much preferred to be man-controlled churches!

Your very good at offering unsubstantiated opinion. Where do you rate yourself compared to Aesop?

Their handy-dandy excuse for being so was a little verse in 1 Corinthians (13:10),
and they passed along their false interpretation of this verse to their poor unsuspecting followers.

More of Aesop-like opinion? Where do you get this from?

With "doctrines of men", these corrupted man-controlled churches destroyed the spiritual power of God's Church.

More fiction. Nothing substantiated. There have been churches all throughout every age of history that have remained true to God's Word. Thus your sweeping generalizations are logical fallacies that hold no weight.

(Man has been given free will, and God rarely messes with it. Even worse, He flees from blatant and willing UNBELIEF.)

Yes, he has given you the free will to post this nonsense. But he could take it away. But then so could we (the administration). That is not a threat, but an example to show to you that free will is not absolutely free. Here you are free to post, but only to post within the guidelines of the rules with which you agreed. If you start posting outside those guidelines or rules you will find your "freedom" and "free will" to post on here eliminated; gone; eradicated.
Sometimes God is like this. The Corinthians exercised their free will to approach the Lord's Table in any flippant manner that they cared to. It was not reverent, and it was wrong. We find that God judged them for it. 1Cor.11:30--Some were weak; some sick; and some dead. God took the free will out of the picture by killing some of them.

If this had NOT happened, the world would have been evangelized many years ago!

The real question is: Why aren't you evangelizing the world right now?
Why are you blaming the past when you are not doing what you should in the present. Do you know that is what criminals do when they make excuses for their crimes. They blame their crimes (murder, rape, etc.) on their past (their environment, parents, teachers, etc.). They fail to take responsibility for themselves.

I.E. God's preferred method of evangelizing is preaching the gospel with S-W-M following, which is how the NT churches did it.

P.S. This baptism with the Holy Spirit is available from Jesus, if you ask Him persistently for it.

.

If what you advocate is true, then I will wait for the results of seeing the world come to Christ through your efforts.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's her business, not yours.
Are you another product of 1900+ years of false teaching in the churches?
I don't know ... maybe you do believe the baptism and the spiritual gifts never ceased.
And maybe it's not my business.
.

Where there ANY prophets/Apostles in biblical sense after John died?

You are sounding like a Mormon in this, as they also say the church was in darkness until restored by God as Mormon church...

Do you see the real church as one restored by modern day penacostal/charamatic movement after Azusa?

 

[evangelist-7]

Where there ANY prophets/Apostles in biblical sense after John died?
You are sounding like a Mormon in this, as they also say the church was in darkness
until restored by God as Mormon church...
Do you see the real church as one restored by modern day penacostal/charamatic movement after Azusa?

I don't know about apostles and prophets until about 100 years ago (Azusa, etc.), which I believe
was the outpouring prophesied by Joel, even though Peter thought he was seeing it in Acts 2.
'Twas probably a double prophecy ... lots of those throughout Scripture.

Satan >> "angel Gabriel" >> Mohammed >> Qur'an >> Islam

Gee, Satan had so much success, he thought he'd do it again:

Satan >> "angel Moroni" >> Joseph Smith >> Book of Mormon >> Mormonism

Yup, for Satan, everything's a piece of cake!
.