The Law a Schoolmaster

[Old Union Brother]

Over in another thread a lively discussion is going on about the Law and faith. I had heard several times that the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. So I searched the scriptures and found these from Galations:

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

What are your thoughts on what the law does. Please pray before you post and I will do the same. Thank you in advance for your replies. raying:raying:

 

[Tom Butler]

The existence of the law is designed to teach us that it is impossible to keep it perfectly. It helps us to understand that we stand condemned under the law, and our only hope is Jesus Christ.

 

[Luke2427]

The existence of the law is designed to teach us that it is impossible to keep it perfectly. It helps us to understand that we stand condemned under the law, and our only hope is Jesus Christ.

Exactly.

It is also worthwhile to note that God commands us to do things that we cannot do and then holds us accountable for them in the commandments.

The classic Arminian (or molinist or whatever they call themselves) argument is that God is wasting his breath telling people to choose him if they cannot.

Someone said earlier there are about 600 commands in Scripture. I don't know if that is so or not- probaly close.

But what that means is that God has commanded sinful man to do 600 things he cannot do and then holds him accountable for them.

Among those commands is- Repent and believe the Gospel.

Of course the natural man cannot do this. His carnal mind is at enmity with God and is not subject unto the law of God NEITHER INDEED CAN IT BE according to Paul in Romans 8.

Yet God holds man accountable to repent.

And God is gracious enough to regenerate billions and give them faith to believe and save them forever out of this mass of universally unworthy people.


If you are saved it is not because you were smart enough or good enough or wise enough to obey the Gospel. If you are saved God did it all.

The commandments exist to show us how wicked we really are.

 

[convicted1]

Over in another thread a lively discussion is going on about the Law and faith. I had heard several times that the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. So I searched the scriptures and found these from Galations:

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

What are your thoughts on what the law does. Please pray before you post and I will do the same. Thank you in advance for your replies. raying:raying:

Bro OUB,

Here are some scriptures to show where the Law(Old Law) is now:

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: The "house of Israel" here is us, the Bride of Christ, the Body of Jesus Christ, who is the Head!!

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; When Jesus died, He fulfilled the Law, and therefore we no longer live under the Law, but under Grace!!

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.



Matthew 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Under the Old Law, you had a bunch of "Thou shalt not do this", "Thous shalt not do that", etc. Under Grace, we have two "Thou shalts"....a MAJOR differnce!!

40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets. When Grace came in, the Law left.



Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

In summation, the Law in and of itself, could not bring "life". It was our schoolmaster that brought us to Christ, but Christ BOUGHT US by His blood, which the Old Law sacrifices could not do. They(sacrifices) only "stayed" their sins from year to year, but Jesus is now our High Priest.



Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The Law is gone now, and Grace is now what we live by. We could not be made perfectly in the "inner man", until after Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected and seated on the right hand of the Father in Glory. The Comforter then came in His name, and now leads His people.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

Bro OUB,

Here are some scriptures to show where the Law(Old Law) is now:

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: The "house of Israel" here is us, the Bride of Christ, the Body of Jesus Christ, who is the Head!!

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; When Jesus died, He fulfilled the Law, and therefore we no longer live under the Law, but under Grace!!

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.



Matthew 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Under the Old Law, you had a bunch of "Thou shalt not do this", "Thous shalt not do that", etc. Under Grace, we have two "Thou shalts"....a MAJOR differnce!!

40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets. When Grace came in, the Law left.



Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.


Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

In summation, the Law in and of itself, could not bring "life". It was our schoolmaster that brought us to Christ, but Christ BOUGHT US by His blood, which the Old Law sacrifices could not do. They(sacrifices) only "stayed" their sins from year to year, but Jesus is now our High Priest.



Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

The Law is gone now, and Grace is now what we live by. We could not be made perfectly in the "inner man", until after Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected and seated on the right hand of the Father in Glory. The Comforter then came in His name, and now leads His people.

i am I am's!!

Willis

What these scriptures teach is that law cannot save and never could. You do not keep it to be saved. You do not even keep it to be righteous.

But Christians are not antinomians. We believe the law of God represents the nature of God, the will of God for how humans should behave themselves. So we keep it out of love for him and our fellow man.

Thou shalt not commit adultery was not done away with, for example. Christ intensified it by saying if a man look on a woman to lust after her he hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. I am not come to destroy it but to fulfill it."

I don't think there is a single person on baptist board who believes that keeping the law saves or justifies or makes one righteous.

What we understand the Scripture to teach is that the law of God is good and holy and just (Romans 7). And we understand that sin is the transgression of the law and whosoever abideth in him sinneth not (I John 3).

We don't live BY the law but by faith. We are free from the law- free from it's penalty and free from observing the ceremonial parts of it. But we keep the moral law out of love for God and our fellow man.

 

[convicted1]

What these scriptures teach is that law cannot save and never could. You do not keep it to be saved. You do not even keep it to be righteous.

But Christians are not antinomians. We believe the law of God represents the nature of God, the will of God for how humans should behave themselves. So we keep it out of love for him and our fellow man.

Thou shalt not commit adultery was not done away with, for example. Christ intensified it by saying if a man look on a woman to lust after her he hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. I am not come to destroy it but to fulfill it."

I don't think there is a single person on baptist board who believes that keeping the law saves or justifies or makes one righteous.

What we understand the Scripture to teach is that the law of God is good and holy and just (Romans 7). And we understand that sin is the transgression of the law and whosoever abideth in him sinneth not (I John 3).

We don't live BY the law but by faith. We are free from the law- free from it's penalty and free from observing the ceremonial parts of it. But we keep the moral law out of love for God and our fellow man.

Bro Luke,

The reason why I gave all of those scriptures is because I have ran across quite a few people who hold to the Law as being valid yet today. That is not the case. The Ten Commandments were written to the OT Jews(Israelites), and not to us gentiles. Jesus stated the Two Commandments we keep now, and that, in and of itself, boils down to love!! Now, there is the moral law we keep, but we do not observe those Ten that were given by God to Moses, now. If they were to be in effect today, we would be worthy of dying the natural death that the OT Jews got when they broke them. We are now under the Grace Covenant and the Old Law(not Old Testament) is not applicable today. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Luke,

The reason why I gave all of those scriptures is because I have ran across quite a few people who hold to the Law as being valid yet today. That is not the case. The Ten Commandments were written to the OT Jews(Israelites), and not to us gentiles. Jesus stated the Two Commandments we keep now, and that, in and of itself, boils down to love!! Now, there is the moral law we keep, but we do not observe those Ten that were given by God to Moses, now. If they were to be in effect today, we would be worthy of dying the natural death that the OT Jews got when they broke them. We are now under the Grace Covenant and the Old Law(not Old Testament) is not applicable today. With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

We're not far apart on this. I don't disagree with 99 percent of what you said here.

But keep in mind that one of the NEW TESTAMENT definitions of sin is "transgression of the law" (I John 3).

Jesus did not do away with the Ten Commandments by giving us two new ones to replace them. In fact the first and great commandment was an Old Testament commandment.

He simply said all the law and the prophets hang on those two. They're still to be observed but the way to observe them is by loving God and your neighbor.

This is consistent with what Jesus said when he said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. I am not come to destroy it but to fulfill it."

 

[convicted1]

We're not far apart on this. I don't disagree with 99 percent of what you said here.

But keep in mind that one of the NEW TESTAMENT definitions of sin is "transgression of the law" (I John 3).

Jesus did not do away with the Ten Commandments by giving us two new ones to replace them. In fact the first and great commandment was an Old Testament commandment.

He simply said all the law and the prophets hang on those two. They're still to be observed but the way to observe them is by loving God and your neighbor.

This is consistent with what Jesus said when he said, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law. I am not come to destroy it but to fulfill it."

The point I am trying to make here, Bro Luke, is this; that by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross at Calvary, He did away with the ceremonial law, and not the moral law. If the "gameplan" wasn't change after Jesus was resurrected, there was absolutely no need of coming here in manform.

Galatians 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
This law is the law of "sin and death" spoken of in Romans chapter 8.


The only way we had access to the Father was AFTER Jesus died, and He rent the veil of the temple in twain. No there is neither male nor female, Jew of Greek, but ONE SPIRIT. When Jesus cried, "It is finished, I believe He was speaking of the Old Law, and the plan of salvation at the same time. We are the "wild olive branch" that is grafted in contrary to nature into the "natural olive branch", which is Jesus. He said, "I am the Vine, and ye are the branches."

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

The point I am trying to make here, Bro Luke, is this; that by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross at Calvary, He did away with the ceremonial law, and not the moral law.

Excellent!!

We have an accord! What a blessing, eh?

Good thoughts, Bud. Keep up the good work!:applause:

 

[Aaron]

Over in another thread a lively discussion is going on about the Law and faith. I had heard several times that the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. So I searched the scriptures and found these from Galations:

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

What are your thoughts on what the law does. Please pray before you post and I will do the same. Thank you in advance for your replies. raying:raying:

The Law is there to show you what perfect righteousness is and how far short you fall of it, and God's remedy.

By God's word at last my sin I learned,
Then I trembled at the law I'd spurned,
'Til my guilty soul, imploring, turned to Calvary.

 

[Old Union Brother]

I firmly believe the law was to show that the outward man cannot do the works of God. Knowledge of Him can only come by the spirit.
Heb.10
[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Ultimately the law lead us to that perfect sacriface made by Christ on the cross. And as it says in verse 10 He did come in the volume of the book. He didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill the law.

I thank you for all of your excellent replies I didn't post more in the OP because I wanted to see where everyone was. As I am relatively new to the board I am trying to see where folks stand other doctrine other than cal vs noncal.

Love, Peace, and Prayers

Jeff

 

[kyredneck]

I firmly believe the law was to show that the outward man cannot do the works of God. Knowledge of Him can only come by the spirit.....

Jeff

Amen Brother.

 

[kyredneck]

...... If the "gameplan" wasn't change after Jesus was resurrected, there was absolutely no need of coming here in manform.

Brother Willis, I don't believe the intent was to ever 'change' anything. God is immutable, He doesn't change, and 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever'. The law covenant was ADDED after the fact, and then it was REMOVED when Christ fulfilled it, and that which was not shaken REMAINED. I do not believe there to be anything new concerning any of the spititual tenets of the 'new' covenant. (new only in the sense that it's mysteries had never been revealed before)

 

[convicted1]

Brother Willis, I don't believe the intent was to ever 'change' anything. God is immutable, He doesn't change, and 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever'. The law covenant was ADDED after the fact, and then it was REMOVED when Christ fulfilled it, and that which was not shaken REMAINED. I do not believe there to be anything new concerning any of the spititual tenets of the 'new' covenant. (new only in the sense that it's mysteries had never been revealed before)

Bro KYR,


I just dunno about that. Here's why. In the OT, the Jews only had access to God through the Prophets, and the High Priest at that time, made the atonement for them. And they (High Priests) had to have blood on their right ear, thumb, and great toe, plus they had bells on the hem of their robe, if my memory serves me correct. When Jesus died, He did away with this "ceremonial portion" of the Law. He is the High Priest now, and prior to His death, the Spirit didn't dwell on the inside of mankind.

Exo.29:20 Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.

21 And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.

Brother, I just don't see this as being sufficient now.

Exo.28:31 And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.

32 And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.

33 And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:

34 A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.

35 And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not.



John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him.

33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.

34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, after Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, and final ascension(sp?) to the Father, the Holy Ghost came down and now dwells in those who are born again/born from above. So, when Jesus did away with the 'ceremonial law", He did change the plan.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

None of this could have taken place until after Jesus' death. So, yes, He did change the plan. It went from a natural covenant, to a Spiritual covenant. The Law required the death of an animal for the atonement, whereas the Spiritual covenant required the supreme sacrifice that only Jesus could offer, which was His life for sinful man! :thumbs:

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[kyredneck]

Brother Willis, I suggest you are confusing the clothing with power from on high [the comforter, Pentecost] with the spiritual birth from above [Jn 3]. The two are not the same.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Isa 57:15

 

[convicted1]

Brother Willis, I suggest you are confusing the clothing with power from on high [the comforter, Pentecost] with the spiritual birth from above [Jn 3]. The two are not the same.

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Isa 57:15

Bro KYR,

I am sorry that I am not able to get my point across to you the way I want to. This is my fault, entirely, so please bear with me on this next attempt(I do not mean this sarcastically, either).

I am not confusing the clothing that the High Priest wears with the Comforter to come, but was showing those verses as to how the High Priest was to enter in the "holiest of holies", and that was with blood being applied. That's the same way now. The only way we have access to the "Holiest of Holies" now, is by the BLOOD OF CHRIST!!The blood that was used in the OT was a "symbol" of the blood of Christ to come, and that by death only, was God's wrath for sin satisified. When Jesus died, EVERY SIN MAN HAD, HAS, AND WILL COMMIT was placed upon Him that day.



Mal. 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.

8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.

10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.

11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles;and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the LORD a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

That passage right there shows that the Jews got "slack" in what they gave to the High Priest when they were to make the sin offering, peace offering, wave offering, whatever it was to be sacrificed. It is no longer the blood of bulls and goats, but the blood of Jesus Christ that saves us from our sins!!!

Heb.10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.In the Grace covenant, God does not remember any of our sins He has forgiven!!

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man,after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

So the only true remedy for sin is the blood of Christ not the OT sacrifices; because they came up before Him following year, and He remembered them, too.

Heb. 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; I believe "after those days" is after Jesus ascended to the Father the last time, and is now seated on the right hand of the Father in Glory!!!

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
He will remember them(sins) no more.


Heb.8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Bro KYR, this is why I say that Jesus did change the "plan". The Law required the blood of an animal to appease God's wrath for their sins, but He remembered their sins each and every year. The Grace covenant required a pure sacrifice, and Jesus was the only one who could accomplish this. By Jesus' death, the Grace covenant "superimposed" the Law, meaning, it blotted out the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us", which I believe to be the ten commandments, per Colossians chapter two. By Jesus dying for sinful man we are now entered into a spiritual covenant with God, whereas the OT Jews had a natural covenant with God.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Old Union Brother]

In my understanding, the plan of salvation changed from the natraul man trying to do the things of God and failing, to a spiritual plan given to the hidden man of the heart. I find the the carnal mind can not recieve the things of God for they are spiritually discerned. In other words Esau's works are as filthy rags and Jacob's are righteous.

 

[kyredneck]

From the OP:

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Take note, the faith was shut up (as in hidden), and then revealed (as in uncovered), by the removing of the law covenant.

I reiterate, there is 'nothing new' about justification by faith:

And he believed in Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

.....the righteous shall live by his faith. Hab 2:4

...the plan of salvation changed from the natraul man trying to do the things of God and failing.....

Brother Jeff, please tell me that you really don't mean this. This sounds as if you're saying that there was salvation possible through the 'plan' of the law covenant. I reiterate, salvation has always been by faith.

 

[kyredneck]

Bro KYR,

I am sorry that I am not able to get my point across to you the way I want to. This is my fault, entirely, so please bear with me on this next attempt(I do not mean this sarcastically, either).....

Brother we're on a topic here that has always interested me, and don't apologize, I'll try harder to decipher your [lengthy] posts, I'm short on time now; I'll be back. Meanwhile, think about abbreviating your thoughts some.

 

[Old Union Brother]

From the OP:
Brother Jeff, please tell me that you really don't mean this. This sounds as if you're saying that there was salvation possible through the 'plan' of the law covenant. I reiterate, salvation has always been by faith.

No, I'm not saying that salvation was available through the law covenant. It was one of those times when I was typing without being fully engaged with my mind and it came out wrong. I meant to say that the law covenant was to the natural man, he couldn't and can't keep it and it brought death. The blood that the law commanded only stayed sins form year to year and did not bring salvation. The Grace covenant came by the perfect blood sacrifice of Christ and it brought salvation through faith in Him.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

A fellow servant in Christ

Jeff