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The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished
- Thread starter cgaviria
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It is constituted on better promises. My point is that the New Covenant is not on the same terms as is the Old Covenant but with better promises. The focus has ALWAYS been salvation in Christ, in God's ONE Promise (Genesis 3). But the Old Covenant and the Mosaic Law was NEVER intended to salvific. If we never are able to grasp that simple concept then we can never move beyond an elementary understanding.
The New Testament is a better covenant. It is a new covenant. You stated that the New Covenant did not render the Old Covenant obsolete. I have provided you with exact Scripture stating otherwise. If you love God then you will obey His commandment, not obedience credited as love but obedience resulting from love. It is a very simple concept, and it is echoed throughout Scripture as a whole (both Old and New Testaments).
The new covenant is built off of the old because it uses the exact same terms, but adds better promises. It is a "new deal" now since the first was broken. The focus has always been obedience throughout also (about every other verse). The purpose of Yeshua is to redeem, restore, and guide those lost back to the Father and His Commandments.
So do you agree that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Father? This includes every command from the torah (where His words are spoken) that we are capable of performing today?
Yet there are so many passages that state otherwise. For example, Jesus says that the Old Testament points to Him (not the other way around). Do you have any passages supporting your hypothesis?
I'm agreeing that much of the OT is foreshadowing Yeshua from Abraham's lamb, Joseph saving his brothers, Moses as lawgiver and interceder, etc. What I'm saying is the mosaic covenant is a foundational stone the new covenant is built on (as are the other 6 covenants of promise). Torah is the foundation stone of which theology must be built off of or you build your house on the sand (Yes, i know you'll say Jesus is the stone which is true because he is the living word - aka torah).
I'll repeat my unanswered question to you:
So do you agree that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the Father? This includes every command from the torah (where His words are spoken) that we are capable of performing today?
I believe Jesus is the embodiment of every word preceding from God, so I guess my answer is yes and no. It's yes because if we are truly in Christ then we are in obedience to God. We are not obeying to obey Torrah or even the Old Testament beyond Torah. Obedience is descriptive of our life. And it's no in the context Torah was never given to us to obey. Where it was commanded of Israel to satisfy certain demands (the demands of the Law) it is given us as a rule to see that we are in Christ.
Your answer seems like you're talking out both sides of your mouth. Here is my response:
Agreed
100% Disagree - Torah is the foundation of belief and disobedience to it is sin (1 john 3:4)
100% Disagree - One torah shall be for Israel and those who sojourn among them (Ex 12:49)(we are to be grafted in)
Agreed. How can you say its to see if you're in "christ" and at the same time say we are not to obey it? That sounds like madness. Jesus didn't bring new laws, he came affirming His Father's laws.
Agreed
100% Disagree - Torah is the foundation of belief and disobedience to it is sin (1 john 3:4)
100% Disagree - One torah shall be for Israel and those who sojourn among them (Ex 12:49)(we are to be grafted in)
Agreed. How can you say its to see if you're in "christ" and at the same time say we are not to obey it? That sounds like madness. Jesus didn't bring new laws, he came affirming His Father's laws.
If Torah is the foundation of belief then towards what foundation do you suppose Abraham's faith was removed as righteousness? The poor fella had no chance as the Law would be given 4 centuries later.
You are presenting a false dichotomy. By saying we obey God because we love God I am NOT saying not to obey God. I don't understand how you even arrive at that conclusion, but can assure you it is a strawman.
Here is the difference.
By your standard Christians need to print off Torah and make sure they are following the rules in order to love God. This is heresy. Just as Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob....to name a few....were not under the Law (Torah) neither are we. But we can learn from not only Torah but the Old Testament as well.
By the standard of God, however, if we love Him (if we are in Christ) then we will obey His commandments. There is no need to look to a law because we will be doing those things if indeed we love God. The Law serves an entirely different purpose for the believer.
Well I wholeheartedly disagree with you. We should print off torah to make sure we line up according to the Creator's wishes. Some laws are naturally known based upon society, but some are learned by reading what has been written. If you say you are a believer, then you must follow torah. If you don't then you are a liar and the truth is not in you (1 john 2:4).
I also contend with you that the patriarchs did know know torah:
Did Abraham know His laws? (Which he taught to his offspring)
- Gen_26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
- Gen 18:19 “For I have known him, so that he commands his children and his household after him, to guard the way of יהוה, to do righteousness and right-ruling, so that יהוה brings to Aḇraham what He has spoken to him.”
Did Noah know His laws?
- Gen 7:2 “Of all the clean beasts take with you seven pairs, a male and his female; and of the beasts that are unclean two, a male and his female; (He knew kosher laws of Lev 11 before they were written)
- 2Pe 2:5 and did not spare the world of old, but preserved Noaḥ, a proclaimer of righteousness, and seven others, bringing in the flood on the world of the wicked,
A christian shouldn't say: "Oh that old testament is good to learn from, but were are NOT to do it" - That is the real heresy.
Of course Torah is in line with God. It was his covenant with Israel. If you were to print of the Old Testament Scripture you'd find it in line with God as well. And even before Torah, the Abrahamic Covenant is in line with God. And so is the New Covenant.
And no one is saying we are not to obey God's commands. Your constant reiteration of that strawman argument is a fools errand getting you nowhere. I've said over and over again that if we love God, if we are in Christ, then we obey God's command.
1. Do you know the difference between the Old Testament and Torah? If so, why do you use them interchangeably? If not, shouldn't you?
2. How do you think Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were considered to be right with God since they knew nothing of Torah?
3. What do you believe is the difference between the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law? Why does Paul look to Abraham and not Moses, to the Promise and not the Old Covenant, when it comes to our faith?
4. What is the difference between the Old and the New Covenant?
Well, you are saying yes we obey, then no we don't need torah - even so much as saying you don't need to look at the torah. Its very murky when you say it both ways when the path should be clear to see: We are to obey torah in both spirit and truth (letter).
1. Absolutely. I use them interchangeably in some areas because most christians do not understand the difference and I hoped it would make more sense to those reading.
2. They knew torah. Torah is from the beginning and I believe even in the garden of eden. If His laws are said to be forever, then don't you think they started even sooner because they were all given for our own good? Granted, the levitcal system was added later because of sin, but the rest of it is timeless.
3. The Abrahamic was a Royal Grant covenant where the King gives everything and since our King is not a liar, we know it will pass. The Mosaic is built on top of this as a Suzerain Covenant where people who want to be His (Israel) and attain the abrahamic promise, must abide by a set of standards (commandments). Why does Paul look back to the Abrahamic? It is because his letters talk about bringing the gentiles in and this is by adoption and engrafting to the promise. This first comes by Faith which then afterwards causes a true believer to walk according to the King's wishes.
4. New Covenant is same terms but better promises which include a new mediator/priest and the giving of His spirit to help us obey, as well as a fresh start through His blood.
My question to you now is: What is the word of Elohim? Where is it found?
I think that we have been talking past each other to an extent (but perhaps not). Here are a few observations:
First, I think you may give Christians a little less credit than they deserve when it comes to the difference between Torah and the Old Testament.
The Tanakh is what we would refer to as the Old Testament, not Torah. The Tanakh contains Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim (Pentateuch or the Law, the Prophets and the Writings). God’s word consists in all three (as evidenced by Jesus quoting all as the Scripture).
Often when Paul speaks of the Law (i.e., the Law of Moses) he is speaking of Torah. There are, however, several occasions where Paul speaks of God’s law as something foundational to Torah (i.e., a general revelation of God’s moral character, the “fathers” pre-Moses existing apart from Torah, ect.). What you seem to be talking about is not Torah at all but God’s law. Torah consisted of moral, ceremonial, and civil laws, statutes and observances that were given under a covenant to Israel at a specific time – a specific beginning with Moses (Deut. 5) and a specific ending with Christ (Heb. 8). But God’s law forms a foundation to all of these covenants.
Second, I disagree that these covenants are built upon one another as no covenant once given can be altered. I would, however, agree that some covenants exist within one larger covenant (one that pre-dates Torah).
I disagree that the New Covenant has the same terms, mostly because it does not. The terms of the Old Covenant was in fact obedience to comply with conditions of the covenant. The terms of the New Covenant is faith whereby one is transformed into something that complies with the conditions of the covenant. They are entirely different terms. The promise of the Old Covenant to man is a curse, but to the Righteous or Holy One (God’s Anointed) it is in fact life. The promise of the New Covenant is not a curse but to be delivered from the curse. It is life in God’s Anointed.
But while the Law is made obsolete (because it is fulfilled in Christ), those in Christ are of course obligated to obedience. That's who they are.
Elohim is found throughout Scripture. It has been applied to pagan gods (Exodus 12:12 describing the Elohim of Egypt, 1 Kings 11:33 where it speaks of Chemosh, the god or Elohim of Moab) , to prophets (to Moses in Exodus 4:16), to dead spirits (the spirit of Samuel appearing before Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13), and of course probably most often to God.
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Well if you want to play that game, the word "God" is never used to reference the Creator of the universe. You can find this title however in several pagan deities such as "Baal Gad" (translated as Lord God in our english) or just plain "Gad" (deity of fortune). In fact, the word "God" is hard, if not impossible to trace down its origins to but the most likely place would put it in an ancient germanic area that some say is derived from Odin. So by playing this, you didn't really answer my question when the word Elohim simply means Mighty One!
Let's put the question another way:
You say that the New Covenant doesn't have the same terms of torah. That being said, you reference Hebrews 8 as an ending point to the old covenant. In it, it is stated that the laws are put in our minds and hearts. Which laws are these? Is it vague? Is there a list? Do each of the 1000 christian denominations get to pick their own?
Don't be foolish. You asked what the word was and where it was found and I told you. I have no clue what direction you wanted to take it, so I simply answered your question as it was asked.
You keep confusing Torah with God's law or commands in toto. If you mean Gods revealed nature then we still disagree because we do not obey God to merit salvation. We obey because because He saved us.
LoL. I meant what is "The Word", not the actual word Elohim (you missed the "of") hahaha.
Torah and YHVH's law are basically synonymous. Torah means "teaching and instruction" and that is found in the first 5 books of scripture. We can really get into some good salvation/law connections, which is why I asked you to answer that question first. (or both of them)
My bad,
I misunderstood what you were asking (I was wondering where you were going with the question). Yes, Torah and the Law are both used to speak of the Books of Moses. Torah itself did not exist during the life of Abraham. What you are referring to, I believe, is not Torah (or the Law) but God's law (God's standards of conduct for man based on His own character and nature).
So in that context, God's law is an expression of His own nature and we can see God’s law threaded throughout His interactions with man because they are of God. God acts within covenants (God’s words or promises to man constitute covenants....God is faithful to his word). And God’s law is seen here. The Abrahamic Covenant is an expression of God’s law given to Abraham, his Seed, and his descendants. Torah is an expression of God’s law given to Israel 400 years later. Nevi'im and Ketuvim are expressions of God’s law as well. And so is the New Covenant. They all express God’s law because they reveal God Himself.
The fullest revelation of God is found in His Son Jesus Christ. If we are living in Christ, dying to ourselves and alive in Him, then we are in obedience to God’s law. If we obey God’s law, then we are not disobedient to God’s commands (where ever they may be found).
It is a simple concept I am trying to explain here. If you obey the fuller command, you by default are obedient to the subset of commands. If I build a bookshelf as it should be built, then I by default have installed the third shelf up correctly. If I am in Christ, then I will obey God’s commands because to be in Christ is to love God and if I love God I will obey his commands.
So since you're "Living in Christ" and "Loving" him, are you:
Keeping the 7th day sabbath?
Eating Kosher (lev 11)?
Against homos?
Staying away from paganism (easter, xmas)
Etc?
Most every Christian I know fails at these except maybe the sexuality laws (although many don't now - especially catholic priests!). This is torah, this is YHVH's laws, and here is the kicker:
Mal_3:6 “For I am יהוה, I shall not change, ....
Abraham did indeed know these and follow them. They are timeless.
Keeping the 7th day sabbath?
Eating Kosher (lev 11)?
Against homos?
Staying away from paganism (easter, xmas)
Etc?
Most every Christian I know fails at these except maybe the sexuality laws (although many don't now - especially catholic priests!). This is torah, this is YHVH's laws, and here is the kicker:
Mal_3:6 “For I am יהוה, I shall not change, ....
Abraham did indeed know these and follow them. They are timeless.
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Abraham did not observe the Law as he was not under the Law (per Paul). He did not obey Torah, but he was aware of God's law at least in part (he had a lesser revelation anticipating the fuller in Christ). Christians indeed observe the Sabbath as they have entered that rest.
I'm sorry Jon, but Christians are lawbreakers (and thus sinners) if they are not stopping all manner of work on the 7th day. How about those other laws I mentioned? Does being "In Christ" get you off the hook from literal obedience?
Abraham kept torah and taught it to his children as demonstrated before. That is why YHVH chose him.
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