The "Let's Talk About Solutions to Police Brutality and Race" Instead of Yelling, Thread

[InTheLight]

All right, we've all got strong opinions about what's been going on in the country. Police brutality, racism, and the inequitable prosecution of blacks IS OCCURRING. It's being done by a small minority of cops, but it is being done. This is not a thread to debate whether or not it is happening--it is happening. This is a thread to discuss what should be done about it.

I'll lead off and I hope others will join in, without acrimony, ad hominems, or strawmen.

It's clear to me that some sort of reform needs to be done to the police officer review process. Too many times we hear about, or actually see, a flagrant disregard for citizen's rights perpetrated against people and then hear the officer was suspended for a week without pay, or some other slap on the wrist. Worse, it's been reported that about half of all police officers fired for violating police policies are reinstated to their job. Oftentimes, the offending officer admits to the offense, shows no remorse, and is reinstated to the job.

The problem in most of these instances is a strong police union that has the backing of state laws requiring these cases to be decided by arbitrators. This leads to situations where even though a citizen's civil rights were violated, the right to arbitration supersedes the citizen's rights. A police chief may fire a police officer for beating up a citizen who was not resisting arrest, but an arbitrator can reinstate that cop to his job.

The basic question is: Who should have more protection for their rights--the repeat offender cop that can fall back on the arbitration process, or the helpless citizen that is abused by the cop? Arbitrators are not elected officials. Mayors are elected and held accountable by voters. If a mayor instructs his police chief to fire an offending officer and that officer gets his job back from a decision made by an unelected arbitrator, well, there is something wrong with this picture.

So for starters, let's reform the police arbitration process.

 

[Use of Time]

Decrease funding. Less militaristic procurements. Make the police rely more on interpersonal skills instead of falling back on superior firepower.

It’s really a culture change that is going to be needed but that’s just going to take generations worth of time. The brotherhood police share is a good thing but also a bad thing at the same time. More third party oversight as a check and balemce is required.

Really identity with the serve and protect mantra that we’ve all heard.

George Floyd protests: Police destroy a medic station in Asheville

Stuff like this a good example. Before these guys did this there should have been a moment when that thought ran through their head. How is this serving and protecting?

Im just baffled at how this type of thing happens. The military can drive around middle eastern war torn countries and refrain from escalating while being pelted with rocks and harassed. I honestly don’t know why they can practice restraint almost completely across all branches of the service while stuff like this and other horrific stories that I’ve witnessed happen routinely here in the states. I’m honestly baffled at why it’s diffefferent. Is it a more strict chain of command? Stronger punitive measures?

 

[InTheLight]

Decrease funding. Less militaristic procurements. Make the police rely more on interpersonal skills instead of falling back on superior firepower.

Agree with all of this. Training the police to rely more on interpersonal skills is huge. Along with that it behooves the cities to hire police that actually live in the city, preferably live in the same precinct they patrol (though that isn't always possible.) The idea of the neighborhood cop that knows the people that live in the neighborhood is a big deal, IMO. Hire cops that fit the demographic. Have black cops in predominantly black neighborhoods. Don't have suburban white cops come into the inner city and be police for 8 hours then go home to the safety of the 'burbs.

It’s really a culture change that is going to be needed but that’s just going to take generations worth of time. The brotherhood police share is a good thing but also a bad thing at the same time. More third party oversight as a check and balemce is required.

Really identity with the serve and protect mantra that we’ve all heard.

It's going to take a lot of training and a lot of time. We better get started on it now.

George Floyd protests: Police destroy a medic station in Asheville

Stuff like this a good example. Before these guys did this there should have been a moment when that thought ran through their head. How is this serving and protecting? I'm just baffled at how this type of thing happens.

I agree. The reason given was that the water bottles were being thrown at cops, so they had to destroy them. It seems it could be true, but seems flimsy. I don't know why they had to destroy the medical supplies, however.

The military can drive around middle eastern war torn countries and refrain from escalating while being pelted with rocks and harassed. I honestly don’t know why they can practice restraint almost completely across all branches of the service while stuff like this and other horrific stories that I’ve witnessed happen routinely here in the states. I’m honestly baffled at why it’s diffefferent. Is it a more strict chain of command? Stronger punitive measures?

Do most cops were protective helmets? If they don't that could be why their tolerance for thrown objects isn't the same as the military. Also, I would assume the military is better trained in rules of engagement and there are severe penalties for violating them. Unlike cops that violate rules and get a feather-tickle by an arbitrator.

 

[Reynolds]

All right, we've all got strong opinions about what's been going on in the country. Police brutality, racism, and the inequitable prosecution of blacks IS OCCURRING. It's being done by a small minority of cops, but it is being done. This is not a thread to debate whether or not it is happening--it is happening. This is a thread to discuss what should be done about it.

I'll lead off and I hope others will join in, without acrimony, ad hominems, or strawmen.

It's clear to me that some sort of reform needs to be done to the police officer review process. Too many times we hear about, or actually see, a flagrant disregard for citizen's rights perpetrated against people and then hear the officer was suspended for a week without pay, or some other slap on the wrist. Worse, it's been reported that about half of all police officers fired for violating police policies are reinstated to their job. Oftentimes, the offending officer admits to the offense, shows no remorse, and is reinstated to the job.

The problem in most of these instances is a strong police union that has the backing of state laws requiring these cases to be decided by arbitrators. This leads to situations where even though a citizen's civil rights were violated, the right to arbitration supersedes the citizen's rights. A police chief may fire a police officer for beating up a citizen who was not resisting arrest, but an arbitrator can reinstate that cop to his job.

The basic question is: Who should have more protection for their rights--the repeat offender cop that can fall back on the arbitration process, or the helpless citizen that is abused by the cop? Arbitrators are not elected officials. Mayors are elected and held accountable by voters. If a mayor instructs his police chief to fire an offending officer and that officer gets his job back from a decision made by an unelected arbitrator, well, there is something wrong with this picture.

So for starters, let's reform the police arbitration process.

I dont really see a large scale problem. Who kills more people, police or medical malpractice?

 

[InTheLight]

I dont really see a large scale problem.

Yes, the past 10 days have been a lighthearted enjoyable romp.

Who kills more people, police or medical malpractice?

This is off-topic and an example of the false dilemma fallacy.

 

[Reynolds]

Yes, the past 10 days have been a lighthearted enjoyable romp.



This is off-topic and an example of the false dilemma fallacy.

The last 10 days are due to idiots acting like idiots. A crime was committed and the legal system will deal with it. People need to stop acting like morons and let the system work.

My example is on topic and not a fallacy. In all professions, there is a margin of error. Why is L E. Expected to be perfect ?Very low paid and expected to be perfect. Perfection is not a reasonable standard. Strive for perfection, but deal with the failures in a logical and rational manner.
I could give you example upon example of the crap I was expected to deal with. Work 12 hour night shift. While working 12 hr night shifts, in court 8 hours per day trying cases 3 to 5 days straight. Working 20 hrs per day and expected to make good decisions, be nice, and not hurt stupid peoples precious little feelings on 2 hrs sleep per day on week long stretches.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

...
Im just baffled at how this type of thing happens. The military can drive around middle eastern war torn countries and refrain from escalating while being pelted with rocks and harassed. I honestly don’t know why they can practice restraint almost completely across all branches of the service while stuff like this and other horrific stories that I’ve witnessed happen routinely here in the states. I’m honestly baffled at why it’s diffefferent. Is it a more strict chain of command? Stronger punitive measures?

...
Do most cops were protective helmets? If they don't that could be why their tolerance for thrown objects isn't the same as the military. Also, I would assume the military is better trained in rules of engagement and there are severe penalties for violating them. Unlike cops that violate rules and get a feather-tickle by an arbitrator.

There is no good excuse for turning a community into a war zone. Suggesting there is is absolutely ridiculous, yet that is exactly what you are doing, as well as approving of those doing it, running interference for them.

Citizens want peaceful coexistence, they do not want to live in communities at war. Anyone trying to turn one into one should not be treated with kid gloves. The police are there to handle them like the violent criminals they are.

 

[Revmitchell]

There is not a large scale problem. The illegal rioting is not evidence that there is. When it does occur it should be handled at the local level.

The recent killing of Floyd by the police officer has produced no evidence of racism. Just because something happens to a minority by a white person does not make it racism. Asserting that it does is, itself, racism.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

InTheLight and RighteousnessTemperance&, do you agree with the website below that police should be disarmed? This position seems to be in keeping with your stated views. If so, it would be interesting if either of you were willing to set the example by entering the criminal world to enforce the law unarmed.

Our Position
"According to the FBI, in 50% of murders of American police officers, the officers did not have time to even draw their gun. This is because the initiative always lies with the attacker; they can strike first before the officer can react. Simply arming officers doesn't protect them. If anything, arming front-line officers increases their risk."

I do not expect any law enforcement personnel to engage a known violet criminal without the ability to overpower the individual with superior fire power.

 

[Adonia]

Im just baffled at how this type of thing happens.

Poor leadership that results in poor training.

 

[Revmitchell]

Candace Owens Debunks Police Brutality Myth

 

[Revmitchell]

All of these protests have nothing to do with racism or police brutality. Its about bringing America to its knees and remaking it a socialist state.

 

[Adonia]

All right, we've all got strong opinions about what's been going on in the country. Police brutality, racism, and the inequitable prosecution of blacks IS OCCURRING. It's being done by a small minority of cops, but it is being done. This is not a thread to debate whether or not it is happening--it is happening. This is a thread to discuss what should be done about it.

Get rid of the Democrats who are in charge of all these big cities for starters. These Democrat mayors hire their chosen Chief's of Police to implement the kind of policies they want so that is where the problem seems to lie.

The problem in most of these instances is a strong police union that has the backing of state laws requiring these cases to be decided by arbitrators.

And how did this happen? Once again it's right back to the Democrat politicians who signed these contracts with the police unions and who also passed these laws of arbitration.

Mayors are elected and held accountable by voters.

And why do these voters keep electing these Democrats to office despite their miserable leadership? The voters get what they deserve, so if they want change need to look to other candidates rather than the ones they have been voting for.

So for starters, let's reform the police arbitration process.

No, for starters let's remove those politicians who have failed time and time again and vote for someone else, preferably a candidate with an entirely different outlook on governing.

 

[Use of Time]

All right, we've all got strong opinions about what's been going on in the country. Police brutality, racism, and the inequitable prosecution of blacks IS OCCURRING. It's being done by a small minority of cops, but it is being done. This is not a thread to debate whether or not it is happening--it is happening. This is a thread to discuss what should be done about it.

I'll lead off and I hope others will join in, without acrimony, ad hominems, or strawmen.

It's clear to me that some sort of reform needs to be done to the police officer review process. Too many times we hear about, or actually see, a flagrant disregard for citizen's rights perpetrated against people and then hear the officer was suspended for a week without pay, or some other slap on the wrist. Worse, it's been reported that about half of all police officers fired for violating police policies are reinstated to their job. Oftentimes, the offending officer admits to the offense, shows no remorse, and is reinstated to the job.

The problem in most of these instances is a strong police union that has the backing of state laws requiring these cases to be decided by arbitrators. This leads to situations where even though a citizen's civil rights were violated, the right to arbitration supersedes the citizen's rights. A police chief may fire a police officer for beating up a citizen who was not resisting arrest, but an arbitrator can reinstate that cop to his job.

The basic question is: Who should have more protection for their rights--the repeat offender cop that can fall back on the arbitration process, or the helpless citizen that is abused by the cop? Arbitrators are not elected officials. Mayors are elected and held accountable by voters. If a mayor instructs his police chief to fire an offending officer and that officer gets his job back from a decision made by an unelected arbitrator, well, there is something wrong with this picture.

So for starters, let's reform the police arbitration process.

Didn’t last long for the strawmen, denial and ad homs to come out in full force. It was a nice attempt though. Lol.

Blah, blah, blah Dems...check
Plan to create Socialist state...check
Straw man that the thread was trying to justify turning country into “war zone.”...check
RevMitch blatant denial that anything could possibly be wrong...check.

The usual Rolodex of Baptist Board derailment techniques.

 

[Use of Time]

All of these protests have nothing to do with racism or police brutality. Its about bringing America to its knees and remaking it a socialist state.

You don’t get to speak for hundreds of thousands of people. The simultaneous willful ignorance and arrogance in this statement is astounding.

 

[Use of Time]

There is no good excuse for turning a community into a war zone. Suggesting there is is absolutely ridiculous, yet that is exactly what you are doing, as well as approving of those doing it, running interference for them.

Citizens want peaceful coexistence, they do not want to live in communities at war. Anyone trying to turn one into one should not be treated with kid gloves. The police are there to handle them like the violent criminals they are.

I’m trying to find the part in this thread where anyone was defending or endorsing turning the country into a war zone.

I’m all for policing up those that are turning things violent or destroying but If you are going to sit there and tell me you are okay with the amount of collateral damage we’ve seen to those just in the area over the last few weeks then I’m going to question your passion for the rule of law.

 

[Use of Time]

The last 10 days are due to idiots acting like idiots. A crime was committed and the legal system will deal with it. People need to stop acting like morons and let the system work.

My example is on topic and not a fallacy. In all professions, there is a margin of error. Why is L E. Expected to be perfect ?Very low paid and expected to be perfect. Perfection is not a reasonable standard. Strive for perfection, but deal with the failures in a logical and rational manner.
I could give you example upon example of the crap I was expected to deal with. Work 12 hour night shift. While working 12 hr night shifts, in court 8 hours per day trying cases 3 to 5 days straight. Working 20 hrs per day and expected to make good decisions, be nice, and not hurt stupid peoples precious little feelings on 2 hrs sleep per day on week long stretches.

Myself and legions of other servicemen and women managed to do it.

 

[Reynolds]

Myself and legions of other servicemen and women managed to do it.

Not the same at all.
Judgment requires rest. If truck drivers cant cant those hours, Police shouldnt work those hours.

 

[Use of Time]

Not the same at all.
Judgment requires rest. If truck drivers cant cant those hours, Police shouldnt work those hours.

I don't know They are much different but okay you are actually contributing to the way forward in this thread and I’ll take it. Better sleep schedules for police so they aren’t cranky and irritable.

 

[InTheLight]

All of these protests have nothing to do with racism or police brutality. Its about bringing America to its knees and remaking it a socialist state.

I think it's awesome that you can read the minds of millions of people that marched and/or protested these past 10 days, both here and in foreign countries.

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